Church Mariology making me nuts!

  • Thread starter Thread starter johnbres2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

johnbres2

Guest
Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.
 
johnbres2 said:
Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.
Click to expand...
How can the Created eclipse the Creator? :rolleyes:

Maybe you have a deeper issue that you should explore, Mary points allways to Jesus, in Canaa at the wedding when they ran out of wine she asked Him if He could help them out and even though it was not yet the moment He acquiesed to His Mom.

And what did she tell the servants? Do as He commands!

Do you love your mother? that is what we owe her nothing less and I doubt she requires more than that.
 
johnbres2 said:
Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.
Click to expand...
One thing that you might want to meditate on, with that particular Scripture (which is read aloud in every Catholic Church on a regular basis, by the way - it’s not hidden away! 🙂 ), is to ask yourself: didn’t Mary do exactly that? Perhaps what Jesus is saying here is that we should indeed bless Mary, not only because she was His mother, but because she was the very first one to “hear the Word of God and keep it”.

Didn’t she, in fact, “do the will of my Father in Heaven” by saying “Yes!” to His request that she bear the Son of God? Doesn’t Scripture show that she followed Him from the beginning of His life till the very end - when even His apostles had deserted him?

In fact, she had a more unique relationship with the Word of God than any human being before or since - as a wonderful Protestant Christmas hymn I heard once put it, “Mary was the first one to carry the Gospel!”

(And for what it’s worth - I agree with you that the “Mary’s flesh is in the Eucharist” crowd is going WAYYYY overboard - but please know that the Church does not teach that! It’s definitely NOT something you have to accept or believe as a Catholic! :eek: )
 
theistgal said:
ask yourself: didn’t Mary do exactly that? Perhaps what Jesus is saying here is that we should indeed bless Mary, not only because she was His mother, but because she was the very first one to “hear the Word of God and keep it”.

Didn’t she, in fact, “do the will of my Father in Heaven” by saying “Yes!” to His request that she bear the Son of God? Doesn’t Scripture show that she followed Him from the beginning of His life till the very end - when even His apostles had deserted him?
Click to expand...
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. But I am not questioning that Mary deserves honor and to be called Blessed by all generations. Rather, I am questioning the degree to which she has been elevated, in official Catholic dontrine. Saything things like “through Mary, to Jesus,” and that she is the mediatrix of all grace, and things like that. These statements imply clearly that she is integrally woven into who Jesus is–almost as if we cannot come to God without Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus without Mary. Now, of course I get that literally we would not have had Jesus if Mary had not borne him–but the idea that spiritually we must go through her to get to Him is just too much for me. It is not being offered to Catholics as a possible way of looking at things–it seems rather to be the official doctrine. Too much!
 
Verbum said:
Hi John,

This lengthy article addresses all your concerns. Tell me what you think :

maryimmaculate.tripod.com/marian12.html

Verbum
Click to expand...
Thank you! That was an excellent and well-written article, but I can’t help but feel its answers are quite toned-down compared to the reality of the situation. The fact is, there are probably more rosaries offered up every day by Catholics than prayers to Jesus Christ. In terms of sheer volume, there are more prayers offered to Mary than to Jesus. Even calling her “Mother of God,” is really a semantical device. While we all understand that Mary is the Mother of Jesus and that Jesus is God (God the Son), calling her “Mother of God” is really a stretch. She is referred to as the “Mother of Jesus” in the BIble, never Mother of God, and the former is the more apt title. I love Mary, but I think the “questioner” in the article is right: Catholics are worshipping her, regardless of how the author tries to distinguish dulia and hyper-dulia. But a sincere thanks for posting the article.
 
I understand your struggle with this because I struggled with similar things as well. I no longer struggle with issues of Mary because fortunately I have had it articulated well enough for me that I can see the ‘hows and whys’. The book that probably helped me the most was Scott Hahn’s book, “Hail Holy Queen.” Though it may not be the answer that you need, but it really helped me to realize that the Church does not exaggerate Mary.

Since Jesus is the Groom of the Church, He is the perfect Groom, and He chose to have the perfect Mother. The Church by no means praises Mary over the Lord, but what praise she does get from the Church is all because of Christ. Loving the Mother of the Lord is only added to the love that we already have for God.
 
johnbres2 said:
Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.
Click to expand...
First, would you please share your question more directly?

Next, here is my logic which helped me overcome my struggles with this issue:
As humans, we very typically celebrate, congratulate, honor, praise, or learn from a person who is extraordinarily great in a certain aspect of living. Examples include: The top athletes of a sport, the top musicians of a genre, the top intellectuals of a subject, etc. So, why not learn from and congratulate those of us created, who are the most obedient to God?

Recognize that God is creating an unlimited number of free-willed humans, who will each make several choices in their lifetime. Given these odds, one of us will be the most perfectly obedient to God for our entire earthly life. And in comparison to the created person, who is most perfectly obedient, the others are all sinners, even if it is just one sin committed. It happens that Mary, the Holy Virgin Mother of God, is the most perfectly obedient person created. Therefore, in efforts to learn from the most perfectly obedient one created, and to celebrate her amazing accomplishment, I venerate her. And in doing so, I have grown tremendously in simplicity, obedience, and overcoming many of my sinful ways.

Thanks for the excellent food for thought! I look forward to further discussion!
 
I will simply say that we do not worship Mary, she is venerated, like the other saints in heaven. She stands out above the other saints because of her involvement in God’s plan for salvation. However, she will never, and can never, eclipse Jesus because without Jesus, she is nothing. As another poster said, she always points to Jesus. There have been those confused groups who have elevated her to a level similar to God, but they live in heresy and do not abide by the teachings of the Church. The only reason she appears so prevalent is because of the saints, she stands out above the rest in so many ways, but never above God and Jesus.
 
John years ago I struggled with the question.

As a renewed Catholic I still found it difficult to approach Mary. It was her traditional birthday. I said to Jesus, “She is Your Mother, and You want us to love her. Please help me,” asking that He give me a birthday gift for her. Nothing came. Finally, I said sadly “I give you myself, that’s all I have to give.” Then I went to the kitchen to write a family letter.

Instead, I came to write ‘Dependence in prayer’ (renamed Reparation through Suffering")and this one. Next morning I read it and cried as I did each time that I prayed it for some while. For several years prayers would more or less write themselves, some need, some inspiration.

Woman of faith, pray for us

Dear Mother Mary, you have been honoured, blessed, and gifted by God. You are our mother because in figure of John, Jesus gave us to you as your children as He hung dying on the cross.

We ask you to speak to God on our behalf, for it was through your faith that Jesus first manifested His power at Cana, thus beginning His work before the appointed time.

Although it concerned neither life nor death, nor eternal salvation but the human feelings of others, He granted your trusting prayer.

Such was your faith, and God’s love for you, Saint of all saints! Therefore, we trust our prayer to Your faith in God!

Please give us your unfailing intercession before God. You see everything that we need in service of God, and all that we desire for each other. You feel the aching of our hearts and hear our longing prayers. You behold our faith, our repentance, and our love.

Stand not silently by, Mother!
Our Father, your Son, and the Holy Spirit who overshadowed you and blessed you with our Saviour—They cannot refuse you!
We stand humbly before you, Mother, and entreat your intercession with our hearts, minds, and spirits
…Mother!

Immediately after, this prayer

Reparation through suffering

God of all peoples, please receive from all ages the sufferings of the innocent and the contrite, in reparation for the sins of the guilty!

Behold—
the bereaved and the deserted…the hopeless and the despairing…the displaced and the poverty-stricken…the injured and the physically sick…the mentally and the emotionally ill…the retarded and the incapacitated…the frustrated and the afraid…the isolated and the elderly…the addicted, the imprisoned and the persecuted. Behold those young, to old, sinned against by injustice, misunderstanding, abuse and neglect…those whose hearts this world has broken…those crushed by remorse and racked by misery and sin…those with lives empty of purpose—
all persons with suffering within or with suffering imposed from an external source! Please receive their pain, grief and loneliness, their weariness, anxiety or desperation—in conjunction with the spiritual, mental and physical anguish of Your Son, as reparation for all the sins of humankind.

Father, through Your love of Jesus, please bless and welcome the sufferers! Hold them gently in Your arms and comfort them. Heal them, claim them, and fill them with Your life and peace.

Please accept all the undirected suffering of those who do not know God. Receive this suffering in atonement for all offences against You and any person. Allow Your mercy, compassion and power to release humankind from bondage to sin, suffering, and death.
You grant me compassion to desire to bring their pain to Your redeeming grace.

Therefore, gather their tears, those fallen and those unshed. Draw them up into yourself through the sun of divine love, to purify them as a rain of mercy to fall upon the parched souls of humankind. Thus, we may grow in Your love and the earth may be filled with life and fruitfulness pleasing to Your divine purposes.

Our God, out of all the cries and moans and tears, hidden or revealed, from earth’s beginning, please hear our prayer. Joined as one with Your Son we all cry out—“My God, my God, why have You abandoned me?”

Of those who torment and those who pass by uncaring and unseeing, we say—“Father, forgive them. They know not what they do and fail to do!” With Him we then cry trustingly—“Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit!”

Father, please listen to our prayer, in union with Your beloved Son whom You raised from death to everlasting glory and joy. In Him who bore all humankind’s sins, please receive all suffering, struggle and sorrow that sin has brought upon our race.

Anything separated from God is meaningless, but in God, all becomes renewed and holy. Please accept from Jesus’ hands the suffering of every person throughout time, held within His own redemptive suffering. This that the whole price of atonement is met, and harmony is restored to Creation in the eternal triumph of Your Kingdom. Thank You, God of our redemption! September 8, 1980
Code: 
The first prayer placed her, the second didn't even mention her but it includes her and ourselves. I thought at the times, "Jesus, You did in fact give me something to give her." That she wasn't mentioned in the second suggested to me that this was according to Mary's wish, that she sees herself as a pathway to Jesus, and she is happy to see us immersed in Her Son and His life.

I have no idea when but when I was three and my mother used to say a Lord's prayer and a Hail Mary with us each night, I didn't understand the words, but I saw to two prayers as images. The Hail Mary was a path, the Lord's Prayer was a dwelling that the path led to.

I don't know if the above makes enough sense to you John, and note perhaps my signature.

God bless. I hope you find peace in your search.
 
Are you a protestant convert? Many converts express similar reservations. So did evangelical convert Mark Shea, until he looked into the Church’s Marian devotions a bit more. He wrote a three-volume set that is sure to enlighten: Mary, Mother of the Son.
 
I am a Protestant convert, and this is probably the biggest thing I struggle with as well. I’ve only prayed a few prayers to Mary (the Hail Mary) and deep within me I still feel as if it is heresy.

So you are not alone. However, the first priest I ever talked to (about 14 months before I became Catholic) told me that some Catholics put a lot of emphasis on her, and some do not, and that it “okay” to be either way.

For now, in my spiritual journey, I do not focus on her much. However, I have heard over and over that the rosary is one of the most powerful prayers that one can pray. So I do do the rosary, only occasionally, and kind of look about me to see if anything may happen.

If there is enlightenment to be found about Mary, I have not found it yet…but I don’t discount it yet either.

Peace to You
 
John,
maybe what you see is not worship of Mary but love of Mary. The love Jesus had for his mother. Mothers are just so special and caring, easy to talk to, and always there for us.
It will become good to you given time.

Just a thought.
 
jenwha said:
I am a Protestant convert, and this is probably the biggest thing I struggle with as well. I’ve only prayed a few prayers to Mary (the Hail Mary) and deep within me I still feel as if it is heresy.

So you are not alone. However, the first priest I ever talked to (about 14 months before I became Catholic) told me that some Catholics put a lot of emphasis on her, and some do not, and that it “okay” to be either way.

For now, in my spiritual journey, I do not focus on her much. However, I have heard over and over that the rosary is one of the most powerful prayers that one can pray. So I do do the rosary, only occasionally, and kind of look about me to see if anything may happen.

If there is enlightenment to be found about Mary, I have not found it yet…but I don’t discount it yet either.

Peace to You
Click to expand...
No i have never felt that strongly against the Hail Mary.(the H word)
🙂
Yes i agree with the advice of the priest. For myslf i would use this advice.
Do yu have a patron saint, iow one that you ask of prayers most often.
johnbres2 said:
Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.
Click to expand...
I kinda of struggled with this, but logic dictates if i can’t beleive what the Church teaches regarding the Blessed Virgin, i can’t beleive anything else she teaches.
 
How Satan loves all that doubt Our Blessed Mother. 😃

When we allow negativity to beset our minds if it isn’t Mary we doubt then we’ll be sure to find something else to question.

Pray the Rosary, ask for Her intercession, and the Holy Spirit will lead in you in the right direction if you are sincere in wanting the truth.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners; now and at the hour of our death. Amen

:flowers::bible1:❤️
 
Why wouldn’t we be particularly fond of Mary?
  1. She’s our other mom.
  2. Half the human race – all the human race – is shamed by Eve’s sin, and therefore we are perked up a lot by Mary’s faithfulness. A lot. We’re not totally worthless and faithless as a species; we really were made in the image and likeness of God.
  3. Mary’s special status as a sinless human points out Jesus Christ’s totally and completely unique status as True God and True Man. She’s a really nice person; Jesus is considerably more than just a really nice person. (Which is why the Arians described Jesus in terms similar to how we describe Mary, since they didn’t think He was God, and tended to disrespect Mary; and which is why Muslims tend to describe Mohammed in terms more applicable to Mary, since they are busy downplaying both Jesus and Mary. And of course, all the sects which believe Jesus is really just an angel also downplay Him and Mary, or tell the Annunciation totally differently.) A healthy interest in Mariology protects your concept of Christology from going weirdish.
  4. Because it’d be really embarrassing for Jesus as a guy to have all those religious flowery poetic epithets and chivalrous knightly instincts be totally directed towards him. Even as a True God and True Man guy. He’d have enough trouble with just the teenage girls.
Mary, OTOH, puts all the flowery religious poems and pretty soppy paintings up on her refrigerator, and thinks they are cute. 🙂

(Note: Reason #4 is not an official Church teaching.)
 
fbl9 said:
I kinda of struggled with this, but logic dictates if i can’t beleive what the Church teaches regarding the Blessed Virgin, i can’t beleive anything else she teaches.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is the reason it is such a problem.

I am not sure of the “take it or leave it approach” works with Marian devotion, as it is very prominent in the Catechism and in the writings of the Popes and the Doctors.

I am not a convert, but am a cradle Catholic. I have been through some personal tragedies in the last few years (including losing a son, which I know Mary can relate to!), that has me looking more closely for truth. I am following the scriptural dictum to test things for myself, and I am just not able to get there, at least for now.

The Rosary just feels like a cult-ish thing to me, with the beads and the repetitions. I am not trying to dis-respect anyone’s Marian devotion. I have gone through periods of saying the Rosary, and I tend to almost fall asleep doing it. Maybe it is just not my thing and I should focus elsewhere. But a Catholic can’t get around Mary–she is everywhere in prayer books. For instance, in the wonderful 7-volume set, “In Conversation With God,” Fr. Fernandez ends most of the entries with a petition to Mary.
 
Re: Rosary beads –

So, how do you keep track of your prayers if you don’t use a tally system? 😉

Long before there were physical beads, monks were keeping track of praying all the Psalms by marking out “rooms” or “tally markers” or even “beads” in their minds, and associating each Psalm and Psalm verse with mental pictures of “physical objects” or “locations.”

Why do you think the Bible is divided into chapters and verses? They are just written records of the mental divisions used by rabbis and monks to memorize the Bible.

(And the purpose was not so much for memorization, as to have organized Bible quotes and ideas at your fingertips for teaching and preaching. And everything else that was an important idea, too. Your mind was your notebook, and physical books were just your visual learning aid.)

A Rosary is a physical version of a mental Psalter storage/organization system, which is why it also works well as an organization system for meditation on the Mysteries of Christ and Mary’s intertwined lives. If you hate it, you hate the Bible verse system too.

If you are interested in Classical/pre-writing/medieval memory systems, The Art of Memory by Carruthers and similar books are out there for you to read.
 
johnbres2 said:
Even calling her “Mother of God,” is really a semantical device. While we all understand that Mary is the Mother of Jesus and that Jesus is God (God the Son), calling her “Mother of God” is really a stretch. She is referred to as the “Mother of Jesus” in the BIble, never Mother of God,…
Click to expand...
I disagree with the underlined statement.

Luke 1:41-43 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and* Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit **and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that **the mother of my Lord **should come to me? *

Keep in mind that the Jews substituted the word “Lord” in the OT wherever “Yahweh”, God’s personal name, occurred. (In our English Old Testament “Lord” is written in all capital letters - LORD - to indicate that originally the word used was “Yahweh”. I don’t know if other languages use all capitals.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top