Church Mariology making me nuts!

[Mintaka]

Saying that Mary is Jesus’ mother and not the mother of God? Denies that Jesus was God at all times, including in Mary’s womb. So yeah, if you think there was a time when Jesus was not God, you’re thinking right along with the Arian or the Nestorian or one of the other fun heresies… and there you go, showing how bad Mariology produces bad Christology.

If it makes you feel better, you can call her Theotokos instead of Mater Dei, but it’s the same thing, my friend.

 

[johnbres2]

How Satan loves all that doubt Our Blessed Mother.

That is an incredibly insensitive comment, that is not redressed by attaching a smiley face. I am making a legitimate effort to seek truth in this matter, and to say that Satan loves me because I am going through doubt is not helpful, or true.

 

[johnbres2]

Saying that Mary is Jesus’ mother and not the mother of God? Denies that Jesus was God at all times, including in Mary’s womb. So yeah, if you think there was a time when Jesus was not God, you’re thinking right along with the Arian or the Nestorian or one of the other fun heresies… and there you go, showing how bad Mariology produces bad Christology.

If it makes you feel better, you can call her Theotokos instead of Mater Dei, but it’s the same thing, my friend.

This is patronizing. Please read what I wrote. I never said I doubted that Jesus was God at any time, including while He was in Mary’s womb.

 

[Nita]

Yes, that is the reason it is such a problem.

I am not sure of the “take it or leave it approach” works with Marian devotion, as it is very prominent in the Catechism and in the writings of the Popes and the Doctors.

I am not a convert, but am a cradle Catholic. I have been through some personal tragedies in the last few years (including losing a son, which I know Mary can relate to!), that has me looking more closely for truth. I am following the scriptural dictum to test things for myself, and I am just not able to get there, at least for now.

.

We are not required to pray the rosary – but as Catholics, we are required to attend Mass on Sundays. The Mass prayers focus predominantly on God. Mary’s name comes up only a couple of times - once in the Nicene creed and once in the Eucharistic prayer. (More often if it happens to be a feast day that honors her).

The other main prayer of the Church is the Liturgy of Hours where the prayers are almost entirely from Scripture.

If you examine the doctrines of the Church they are almost all about God. There are only a few that are about Mary.

The Rosary just feels like a cult-ish thing to me, with the beads and the repetitions. I am not trying to dis-respect anyone’s Marian devotion. I have gone through periods of saying the Rosary, and I tend to almost fall asleep doing it. Maybe it is just not my thing and I should focus elsewhere.

If you are unable to commune with God while praying the rosary, then certainly look to other prayers.

For many years I did not find the rosary a meaningful prayer - it was just repetition, albeit of good and holy words. Then I learned that we were to be meditating on the particular mystery while praying the Hail Mary’s. So I tried to do that, but with little luck; my head would hurt from the effort!! Then, when my father was dying, I took out my rosary and started to pray it, and it just happened – the meditating. After that, the rosary became a VERY Christ centered and meditative prayer for me; it became a regular part of my prayer life.

But a Catholic can’t get around Mary–she is everywhere in prayer books. For instance, in the wonderful 7-volume set, “In Conversation With God,” Fr. Fernandez ends most of the entries with a petition to Mary

I love that set of books. If you were to take all the sentences in those books and note the percentage of them that revolved around Mary, I’m sure you would agree the percentage would be low - less than 25%.

I think you may be hypersensitive to references to Mary. Is it perhaps because you’ve listened to, and begun to believe, too many non-Catholic criticisms that are exaggerations of Catholic teaching and practice?

 

[EricFilmer]

Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.

I am a convert who once had to address this issue. It occurred to me that Mary is the mother of every Christian, because we are brothers and sisters of Christ, and therefore his mother is our mother. In a like manner she is also the mother of the Church because the mother of the head of the Church (Christ) is likewise the mother of the body of the Church (all of us). The Ten Commandments require us to honor our mothers, and Jesus himself honored Mary. As a matter-of-fact, he perfectly honored her, at least in the sense of the honor a son owes his mother (after all, to suggest otherwise is to say that Jesus did not perfectly follow the Ten Commandments).

I think all Christians believe that Mary is to be honored, but the question (as we all know) is how far are we to go? When Protestants say that Catholics go too far, I ask them how far they think a Christian ought to go, and I have yet to get a straight answer (or any answer for that matter; so far the question has been dodged). When I was a Protestant, “honoring” Mary at the various churches I attended meant getting a school girl to dress up like her once a year for the Christmas pageant and then ignoring her until the next pageant rolled around. This hardly seems a proper and sufficient way of honoring our mother. The attitude that is often found in Protestantism is that Mary is an important historical figure whose deeds should be remembered (although rarely discussed), but she is not a mother with whom we are in a loving relationship with.

 

[vames]

Rather, I am questioning the degree to which she has been elevated, in official Catholic dontrine. Saything things like “through Mary, to Jesus,” and that she is the mediatrix of all grace, and things like that. These statements imply clearly that she is integrally woven into who Jesus is–almost as if we cannot come to God without Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus without Mary. Now, of course I get that literally we would not have had Jesus if Mary had not borne him–but the idea that spiritually we must go through her to get to Him is just too much for me. It is not being offered to Catholics as a possible way of looking at things–it seems rather to be the official doctrine. Too much!

I am a cradle Catholic too and I haven’t really thought too much about it until I discovered this on a Traditionalist blog:
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/our-lady-left-behind-marian-question-in.html
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/our-lady-left-behind-marian-question-in_13.html
It was painful to read it and realize that beyond our innocent prayers and devotions there is in fact a whole politically charged battlefield.

Then I figured out that all the “Mariolatric” excesses that are not motivated by simple popular piety (spontaneous tendency towards worshipping instead of veneration) happen or are officially encouraged exclusively because of historical and political reasons:

• Converting people or maintaining faith “overseas” - the HUGE devotions to the Virgin of Guadalupe, Patroness of Mexico, or Nossa Senhora Aparecida, Patroness of Brazil
• Combating various ideologies, like feminism or communism (Fatima and “the consecration of Russia”)
• Emphasizing differences between Catholicism from Protestantism (unlike our Orthodox brothers, who usually don’t make such a fuss about venerating saints, although their devotion to the Theotokos is very well established and promoted)
• Seeking fidelity to Traditional Catholicism instead of “Novus Ordo” (which is sad and misdirected IMHO, judging by some comments on the above quoted blog)
• Promoting various local devotions as potential tools for reviving faith (including questionable apparitions like “the Mother of All Nations” in the Netherlands, with a campaign to push for a fifth Marian dogma - Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces, only because the seer of the apparition was Dutch).

So be calm and judge things for yourself. It’s beyond doubt that the Virgin Mary deserves our love and veneration, there are obvious theological reasons for it, but it’s up to us to decide about any particular devotion.

 

[vames]

For many years I did not find the rosary a meaningful prayer - it was just repetition, albeit of good and holy words. Then I learned that we were to be meditating on the particular mystery while praying the Hail Mary’s. So I tried to do that, but with little luck; my head would hurt from the effort!! Then, when my father was dying, I took out my rosary and started to pray it, and it just happened – the meditating. After that, the rosary became a VERY Christ centered and meditative prayer for me; it became a regular part of my prayer life.

I can totally relate - it happened to me after I lost my mother.

 

[johnbres2]

thanks for the wonderful replies–the last few have been very helpful and my mind has opened up to Mary–now I will see if the heart follows! Peace of Christ to you all.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

thanks for the wonderful replies–the last few have been very helpful and my mind has opened up to Mary–now I will see if the heart follows! Peace of Christ to you all.

I came upon your thread rather late. I am not going to debate you but I will offer you some advice.
I have no idea where you are, but somewhere near you are either Jesuit or Dominican priests- more than likely either in a parish or attached to a University. Make an appointment to see him and tell him of your reservations. They will be able to guide you to an understanding of the Marian phenomum and how it does or doesn’t apply to you.
Although it is wonderful that you are seeking out Marian literature to study, I do not recommend that you try to reason it out on your own. To be completely honest with yourself, you do need guidance, and there is nothing better for this than the Jesuits or the Dominicans.

 

[fbl9]

Yes, that is the reason it is such a problem.

I am not sure of the “take it or leave it approach” works with Marian devotion, as it is very prominent in the Catechism and in the writings of the Popes and the Doctors.

I am not a convert, but am a cradle Catholic. I have been through some personal tragedies in the last few years (including losing a son, which I know Mary can relate to!), that has me looking more closely for truth. I am following the scriptural dictum to test things for myself, and I am just not able to get there, at least for now.

The Rosary just feels like a cult-ish thing to me, with the beads and the repetitions. I am not trying to dis-respect anyone’s Marian devotion. I have gone through periods of saying the Rosary, and I tend to almost fall asleep doing it. Maybe it is just not my thing and I should focus elsewhere. But a Catholic can’t get around Mary–she is everywhere in prayer books. For instance, in the wonderful 7-volume set, “In Conversation With God,” Fr. Fernandez ends most of the entries with a petition to Mary.

I am a cradle catholic, ran away, than came back very shame faced.

Myself i do not use the rosary as i ought. When praying the roasary the focus is not on the prayers but rather what one is praying for.
The sorrowful mysteries, for example, we ask for grace to preserve. One ought to being praying with fervor for such grace.

Did Jesus say no to His mother? He is God and God doesn’t change.

The Church is wrong about Mary so thus the Church is wrong about the infallabilty of her doctrines. Now the whole of the truth is in question.It is the only logical outcome.

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun responds in RED

Why wouldn’t we be particularly fond of Mary? Hey yeah. That’d fall under love ye one another! And we’d be following Jesus. And no matter HOW fond we are of her we’re not going to beat Jesus in Honoring her … when He became the son of Man He undertook to keeping perfectly the 10 Commandments … (not just 9 1/2!).

1. She’s our other mom. Jesus’ last gift from the cross “There is your Mother …” before the final gift of Himself. Shall we not accept His gift?
2. Half the human race – all the human race – is shamed by Eve’s sin, and therefore we are perked up a lot by Mary’s faithfulness. A lot. We’re not totally worthless and faithless as a species; we really were made in the image and likeness of God.I’m a man. And one time, when I was beginning to scruple that Mary was too big a deal in the Church and I committed DEEPLY to seeking Jesus – I was surprised and confused at an interior call from Him to " …look to My Mother!"

When I did a study on Mary (self-led but sincere) I was stunned that although she wasn’t “in the Bible a lot” (a critique of a friend whose dedication to the Bible could have be construed as “book worship” by a similarly suspicious person) she was IN it in all the most important moments of human history! Which was more GOD’s doing than hers of course.

1. Mary’s special status as a sinless human points out Jesus Christ’s totally and completely unique status as True God and True Man. She’s a really nice person; Jesus is considerably more than just a really nice person. (Which is why the Arians described Jesus in terms similar to how we describe Mary, since they didn’t think He was God, and tended to disrespect Mary; and which is why Muslims tend to describe Mohammed in terms more applicable to Mary, since they are busy downplaying both Jesus and Mary. And of course, all the sects which believe Jesus is really just an angel also downplay Him and Mary, or tell the Annunciation totally differently.) A healthy interest in Mariology protects your concept of Christology from going weirdish.

The “Theotokos” or “Mother of God” title Mary got from an early Church Council (Nicea I think) was really combatting the heresies that: Jesus was not really MAN.or that He was JUST man and NOT God or the God/Man. The intellectual stuff actually takes us away from the intimacy God plans for us - but it’s needed. Mary’s “sinless beginning” equals what Eve had – and God foreknew both Mary and Eve. For
the “it must be biblical” crowd that can’t accept Church teaching (even though “Biblically” the Bible says one should!) let’s just remember that Mary is the one called “Blessed” or “Most Blessed” among women - and so having a gift that Eve had should not shake one’s faith.

1. Because it’d be really embarrassing for Jesus as a guy to have all those religious flowery poetic epithets and chivalrous knightly instincts be totally directed towards him. Even as a True God and True Man guy. He’d have enough trouble with just the teenage girls.

Mary, OTOH, puts all the flowery religious poems and pretty soppy paintings up on her refrigerator, and thinks they are cute.

(Note: Reason #4 is not an official Church teaching.)

:blushing: < I’ve never imagined Jesus embarrassed before! Maybe it happened. He turns to Peter - " … sorry about the flies guys, I just got mad at those darn slave owners one day and … " nah still having a hard time seeing it. Though He WAS like us in all ways but sin … and I’VE been embarrassed! :dancing:

In the 12 th Chapter of Revelation St. John has a vision of a woman …

1. She is crowned (with STARS!) 2. In heaven 3.The moon is beneath her feet 4. Her clothes are as the sun 5. She is with child 6. An evil force (the devil, the ancient snake now grown to full power as the dragon waits to devour her child (like Herod) 7. She is helped to escape to the Desert (angels warned Joseph, Mary fled) and 8. Her child who was to rule all nations with an iron rod (like Jesus) was taken up to heaven (John witnessed the Ascension!).

I have heard people get very angry and say “THAT’S not MARY!” But since “Biblically”
Mary is the “most blessed among women” then … HER glory could only be greater than THAT! And who would have crowned “her” in heaven? Well. If GOD Himself is honoring her so much … our poor imitation is not going to outdo Him. And again we “follow Christ” because that is what a “Christian” is supposed to do!

There are many parts of the body of Christ. One need not pursue a course in Mariology
to get into heaven. The Church does not list her as part of the Trinity … and while she is mentioned in the Creed … the honor given her there does not approach the worship given to the Trinity in the Creed. She is honored though, whereas Pontius Pilate is just … mentioned as a historical footnote.

Jesus didn’t HAVE to make Mary or any woman (or any man for that matter) part of HIS plan of salvation for us all. But since He did what He did … we should at least have peace with it.

If someone were to somehow REPLACE God with Mary … that wouldn’t even BE Catholic.
And pretty dumb since SHE calls God Her Saviour.

When given a gift … it is good to feel happy. Thank you Jesus for the gift of your Mother to us all. Or WAS it just to St. John? Hmm. Nah. It wouldn’t need to be in the Bible then. :extrahappy:

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical.

Unbiblical? Hardly: youtube.com/watch?v=bxCBxGmtUos

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun responds in RED

How can the Created eclipse the Creator? It’s so cool you said that JerryZ. I got a whole different insight than you did with that though.

When Jesus decided to become man in Mary’s womb … He WAS sort of eclipsed! There but unseen. He couldn’t hide from the Holy Spirit though and the spirit-filled Elizabeth LOUDLY CRIED OUT that He was there and that her child had leapt in her womb at the sound of the “Mother of (her) Lord’s voice”. Elizabeth ( a Holy Spirit filled person remember, humbles herself and wonders out loud …

**Luke 1:43 …**And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?)

Maybe you have a deeper issue that you should explore, Mary points allways to Jesus,(This is what happened to me … and it IS good news … leads to a deeper more intimate relationship with Jesus (in my case) which is the best thing of all! in Canaa at the wedding when they ran out of wine she asked Him if He could help them out and even though it was not yet the moment He acquiesed to His Mom.

And what did she tell the servants? Do as He commands! One could almost sum up the Christian faith as well as the Creed with:

Jesus’ summary of the “greatest commandment(s)”: Love God totally, and Love your neighbor as yourself! And Mary’s two brief quotes “AS a Christian”

Mary (her personal response to God’s invitation): Yes! “Be it done unto me according to thy Word …” and her instructions to others (a model for the Church!)

Mary: “Do whatever He tells you to do!”

Do you love your mother? Even if someone didn’t … Did JESUS? And should we NOT follow Him there? that is what we owe her nothing less and I doubt she requires more than that.

Mary is “the woman” prophesied and promised to mankind that Satan would have enmity with. As opposed to the first Eve who did Satan’s bidding and lost paradise for all mankind … in God’s plan of redemption, He BEGINS to put things right through a woman’s YES to God. Mary’s!

The easy way to think of this is not to involve intellectual pride at all. It’s checkers not chess. Is our attitude toward Mary closer to Jesus’ or Satan’s? Does anybody ***REALLY *** think that on THIS one matter, Jesus and Satan are “pretty close”? Which would mean Jesus too has enmity with her :nope:?

Or that Satan has dropped his infernal enmity and rage against her (see Revelation Ch. 12) and is fashioning an even BETTER crown than the stars God apparently placed about her head for St. John to write about?

Love her. What would … DID … Jesus do? And what did Mary do? Served Him all her life. Sought Him when she’d gotten distracted. Followed Him when he journeyed, always seeking to be close to Him; standing by Him in His time of great persecution – and publicly. Waiting in prayer. Receiving the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. And living a quiet life until called home.

That’s a role model. “Create in me a clean heart … oh Lord … and renew a right spirit within me!” Mary’s heart is immaculate … but why crab when we can do better by letting God make us immaculate too!

**Matt 5:48 **So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

That is about the future. And the present, not the past. God will give us graces and forgiveness and examples like Mary to help us on our way to a “perfect game.” (baseball analogy).

If we’d just been coached along to pitching a no-hitter on opening day (God gives us a clean slate!), we’d neither be hang-dog about last year when our ERA was high and we got knocked around - nor would we be jealous of the relief pitcher in our bullpen who’d
finished last year with a 0.00 ERA and retired to coach us. (Don’t ask me if Mary had a fastball or an unhittable knuckler … I’m out on a limb with this as it is!)

 

[1_with_God]

That is an incredibly insensitive comment, that is not redressed by attaching a smiley face. I am making a legitimate effort to seek truth in this matter, and to say that Satan loves me because I am going through doubt is not helpful, or true.

Sorry if I offended you johnbres2. BTW that is a grimace, not a smiley face. However it is Satan that instills doubt in us. That is TRUTH. Read the book “True Devotion to Mary” and many of your questions and all your doubts will be put to rest.

At the Cross Her station keeping, stood the Mournful Mother weeping, close to Jesus to the last. Through Her heart, his sorrow sharing, all His bitter anguish bearing, now at length the sword had passed. Oh, how sad and sore distressed was that Mother highly blest of the sole begotten One! O dear Mother, fount of love, touch my spirit from above; make my heart with yours accord. Make me feel as you have felt; make my heart to glow and melt with the love of Christ my Lord.

 

[Vico]

thanks for the wonderful replies–the last few have been very helpful and my mind has opened up to Mary–now I will see if the heart follows! Peace of Christ to you all.

I remember that, in the Hail Mary, we are giving glory to God because we repeat how he prepared the Virgin Mary to be the worthy mother of his Son. We know that He let her share beforehand in the salvation Christ would bring by His death, keeping her sinless from the first moment of her conception. Finally, the request to her is at the end of the Hail Mary, for her to pray for us.

 

[littlechicken]

When Jesus said “Rather” the meaning to me is “look at it this way”.

I am only commenting really because I read all of the posts with much interest, and learned a lot from them.
If I didn’t post I would be a, uh, lurker?

God bless.

 

[Crumpy]

Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.

I struggled with this and had difficulty saying the rosary. I stopped saying the rosary for years. I “hear” what you’re saying.

Like yourself, I lived in the western suburbs of Chicago (Elmhurst) for years. We had three parishes in elmhurst: Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Mary Queen of Heaven. Not very ecumenical in the naming of those parishes.

My problem is that I also had some psychological problems with my mom, too. I couldn’t sort out this social problem with my ambivalence about Mary.

What I’m saying and what I think you’re saying, at the very least, is that you haven’t developed the spiritual maturity to deal with Mary. I have gotten past my emotional hangups over two decades of Bible study. Yeah, I’m still not into the overblown “fiat” business. Sure, it’s there, but I’m sure that God could have done something else if Mary had said “pass.” It’s also hard to get real gushy about all this perpetual virginity business. Who cared then? Who cares now?

Mary is in the Bible. You can’t ignore that. It takes a lot of study for me to warm up to some of the other things about Mary. I’m reading some of the early Church fathers about the Birth of Jesus. On this point it’s interesting what they say about St Joseph not “knowing” Mary until after Jesus was born. This is most often interpreted as meaning something about conjugal relations. But, one of the fathers turns this on its head. He says that it means just what it says, that he DIDN’T KNOW MARY until after Jesus was born. He didn’t know how important she was and what had happened to her – has nothing to do with conjugal relations.

It is important from a scriptural point of view that Mary is a perpetual virgin, to fulfill what Isaiah said in 7:13ff. Mary fulfills this prophecy.

Revelation says that the saints present petitions to God. So, I accept intercessory prayer to Mary. It’s biblical.

The Church teaches that private revelations are primarily FOR the person who receives them. So, I don’t like turning private revelations into public devotions (Fatima, Lourdes, etc). Mary never prayed to herself. If we emulate Mary, then we won’t pray to her, no?
That subject is too hot. Suffice that there is no Church law to pray to Mary, even though it is widely done. I pray the rosary, twice day, devoutly and reverently.

I will be the first in line to remind you, that you must follow the teaching of the Church. Pray for the grace to understand. It is for us to be humble, ALWAYS.

 

[panevino]

Thank you! That was an excellent and well-written article, but I can’t help but feel its answers are quite toned-down compared to the reality of the situation. The fact is, there are probably more rosaries offered up every day by Catholics than prayers to Jesus Christ. In terms of sheer volume, there are more prayers offered to Mary than to Jesus. Even calling her “Mother of God,” is really a semantical device. While we all understand that Mary is the Mother of Jesus and that Jesus is God (God the Son), calling her “Mother of God” is really a stretch. She is referred to as the “Mother of Jesus” in the BIble, never Mother of God, and the former is the more apt title. I love Mary, but I think the “questioner” in the article is right: Catholics are worshipping her, regardless of how the author tries to distinguish dulia and hyper-dulia. But a sincere thanks for posting the article.

Calling her Mother of God, highlights who the Son is.
That’s why the title is held tight.
That’s why it’s in the Hail Mary prayer.

 

[Nita]

This is most often interpreted as meaning something about conjugal relations. But, one of the fathers turns this on its head. He says that it means just what it says, that he DIDN’T KNOW MARY until after Jesus was born. He didn’t know how important she was and what had happened to her – has nothing to do with conjugal relations. …

I’m really curious as to which Church father said this – that Joseph “didn’t know how important she was and what had happened to her”. According to Scripture, Joseph knew what happened to Mary before they were even wed.
Mt 1:20 But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; 1:21 she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

As to importance, I’m wondering how he could have reasoned that Joseph wouldn’t immediately comprehend that Mary was important.

1. First he’s been informed in a supernatural way;
2. then he learns that Mary has conceived in a supernatural way through the will and power of God – a manner unique in human history;
3. and finally he learns the importance of the child within her womb – that he is someone who will have the power to “save His people from their sins”. (Joseph must have pondered that statement long and hard. eg. “Just who is this child I am to be a father to?” Recall the Jewish teaching – “… Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Mark 2:7)

Anyway, do recall the particular Church father and in which writing of his that it occurred?

 

[Nita]

…Anyway, do recall the particular Church father and in which writing of his that it occurred?

whoops! I meant to type “do you recall…” (“do recall” sounds like an order ) I was running late for Mass and submitted my reply without proofing it first.