Church Mariology making me nuts!

[Cranch]

However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical.

I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that.

Rather, I am questioning the degree to which she has been elevated, in official Catholic doctrine.

It is not being offered to Catholics as a possible way of looking at things–it seems rather to be the official doctrine. Too much!

My suggestion is for you to temporarily put your reservations to one side and look more closely at what makes our Catholic faith authoritative: the reality of its grounding in Scripture and Tradition. Also the role and purpose of the Magisterium in light of Apostolic succession and Christ’s promise of the Holy Spirit to “teach you all truth.” The Church is here not to conform to our beliefs but to inform them. An in-depth study in this area may allow you to then see the Church’s Marian teaching with new eyes.

fbl9;10039937:

I kinda of struggled with this, but logic dictates if i can’t beleive what the Church teaches regarding the Blessed Virgin, i can’t beleive anything else she teaches.

Yes, that is the reason it is such a problem.

I am not sure of the “take it or leave it approach” works with Marian devotion, as it is very prominent in the Catechism and in the writings of the Popes and the Doctors.

Not sure, but I think you misunderstand fbl9 here. I think they’re NOT saying “take it or leave it, your call.” But rather, “I believe the Church because if the Church is wrong on Mary, she might be wrong on other things as well.”

 

[Cranch]

Suffice that there is no Church law to pray to Mary, even though it is widely done.

This could be quite true—I’m not sure what constitutes a Church law. I thought I’d mention though that after the final blessing at a “low Mass” in the Extraordinary Form, we kneel for a set of prayers introduced by Pope Leo XIII. We say along with the priest three Hail Marys and the “Hail Holy Queen” prayer after which the priest says: “Pray for us O holy Mother of God.” We respond with: “That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.” The priest than says this beautiful prayer:

Let us pray. O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with mercy upon Thy people who cry to Thee; and by the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Saint Joseph her spouse, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the saints, in Thy mercy and goodness hear our prayers for the conversion of sinners, and for the liberty and exaltation of our Holy Mother the Church. Through the same Christ Our Lord.

(Finally comes the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel and a triple invocation of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus to have mercy on us.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.

I have a solution for it but I’m afraid the people running this board won’t like it

 

[R_C]

In Treatise on the True Devotion, St. Louis-Marie Grignon de Montfort identifies this tribulation as one of the 7 deceptions or deformations of the cult to the Blessed Virgin.

I recommend you read this book if you want to learn more on the subject, especially to learn the ways in which proper honor is offered to Our Lady and the ways in which such honor is deformed into error.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would.

Good. That is the first of three levels of proper devotion to Our Lady. At least this way you do not offend God.

she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

Christ took flesh from her. How much greater can a creature get? She is higher than all creation, greater than all the saints, queen of all the angels. There is only one who is above her: God. For this reason she will never “eclipse” Christ. Furthermore, all the honor due to her is due to her exclusively because of Christ: to say “hail Mary” is to say “hail Christ”. And she, who called herself the servant of the Lord, has only one will: “that we do whatever Christ says”. Which is why the Church Fathers (as St. Louis-Marie points out in his book) mentioned that every time we say “Mary” she says “Jesus”, and if all prayer is heard by God, no prayer is left unanswered if received from the Blessed Virgin (as the most ancient Memorare prayer shows).

Point being: the Treatise is the best point to start. From there on, you can go ahead and read the writings of the Church Fathers mentioned by St. Louis-Marie.

 

[R_C]

I have a solution for it but I’m afraid the people running this board won’t like it

Anything that involves less honor to Our Lady is something that not just us, but God Himself won’t like. Remember that we are very joyful to employ the name theotokos of Eastern origin, and that there is something quite special in that name…have you weighed your solution along with that title?

 

[brb3]

My concern is that Mary isn’t emphasized by Christ in scripture as overly special or venerable. The focus needs to be on Him, and not Mary.

And, as proof of this, the Apostles didn’t overly emphasize Mary. It was only later, after they had passed, that the laity started to make Mary a superstar among mankind.
I’m a firm believer in our 1st century roots …what they received, taught, and emphasized…is what we too should hold near & dear.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Per the OP’s question, perhaps we should remember the example of another great convert who had trouble with one dogmatic aspect of Mariology–her perpetual virginity–and the convert in question was none other than GK Chesterton. Gilbert Keith went so far as to write a poem regarding Joseph’s quite natural feelings and the restraint and grace he would have needed. In the end, because GK accepted everything else the Church declared, he decided who was he to declare the Church was wrong on this point alone.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

It was only later, after they had passed, that the laity started to make Mary a superstar among mankind.

And this is wrong, how?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Anything that involves less honor to Our Lady is something that not just us, but God Himself won’t like. Remember that we are very joyful to employ the name theotokos of Eastern origin, and that there is something quite special in that name…have you weighed your solution along with that title?

Absolutely! My solution actually focuses on that title and nothing else.

 

[brb3]

If we are serious and to be successful with our Ecumenism o

utreach to the Protestants …we need to stay with what scripture says on Mary, and not insist on Modern Day vintage revelations & Marian sightings.

Afterall, why would Mary wait 17-18 centuries, to begin teaching the Church how to pray and win souls ?

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

If we are serious and to be successful with our Ecumenism outreach to the Protestants …we need to stay with what scripture says on Mary, and not insist on Modern Day vintage revelations & Marian sightings.

Afterall, why would Mary wait 17-18 centuries, to begin teaching the Church how to pray and win souls ?

youtube.com/watch?v=bxCBxGmtUos

 

[GangGreen]

Thank you! That was an excellent and well-written article, but I can’t help but feel its answers are quite toned-down compared to the reality of the situation. The fact is, there are probably more rosaries offered up every day by Catholics than prayers to Jesus Christ. In terms of sheer volume, there are more prayers offered to Mary than to Jesus. Even calling her “Mother of God,” is really a semantical device. While we all understand that Mary is the Mother of Jesus and that Jesus is God (God the Son), calling her “Mother of God” is really a stretch. She is referred to as the “Mother of Jesus” in the BIble, never Mother of God, and the former is the more apt title. I love Mary, but I think the “questioner” in the article is right: Catholics are worshipping her, regardless of how the author tries to distinguish dulia and hyper-dulia. But a sincere thanks for posting the article.

Let us not forget that the Rosary is actually a very Christ-centric prayer. First off the Hail Mary asks Mary to pray for us. Who would she pray for us to? God of course.

Second, the mysteries of the Rosary which are the major meat of it is a mediation on the life and ministry of Jesus. Mediation is a very powerful form of prayer. So while your mouth may be praying the words to Mary, your mind and spirit are being raised to Christ.

If we are serious and to be successful with our Ecumenism outreach to the Protestants …we need to stay with what scripture says on Mary, and not insist on Modern Day vintage revelations & Marian sightings.

Afterall, why would Mary wait 17-18 centuries, to begin teaching the Church how to pray and win souls ?

There have been reported Marian Apparitions reported back to 40 AD and all throughout the history of the Church. They have only started to be officially approved by the Vatican since the 1500s.

 

[johnnyc176]

Let us not forget that the Rosary is actually a very Christ-centric prayer. First off the Hail Mary asks Mary to pray for us. Who would she pray for us to? God of course.

Second, the mysteries of the Rosary which are the major meat of it is a mediation on the life and ministry of Jesus. Mediation is a very powerful form of prayer. So while your mouth may be praying the words to Mary, your mind and spirit are being raised to Christ.

Thank you!

 

[R_C]

My concern is that Mary isn’t emphasized by Christ in scripture as overly special or venerable. The focus needs to be on Him, and not Mary.

And, as proof of this, the Apostles didn’t overly emphasize Mary. It was only later, after they had passed, that the laity started to make Mary a superstar among mankind.
I’m a firm believer in our 1st century roots …what they received, taught, and emphasized…is what we too should hold near & dear.

You are mistaken in this. You simply do not see the emphasis, but it is there. All over the place, Old and New Testament alike.

Again, the Treatise goes over this aspects. I feel it would not be a good idea to go over it here when you can simply read it and then further ask if you still have questions.

Furthermore, just to clarify (since you insist in following the erroneous way), the focus is on Jesus. To put it bluntly (God forgive me) Mary would be nothing without Jesus.

Mind you, you are being irreverent calling Our Lady “superstar”. Indeed, though, she is a super-star: we call her the Star of the Sea, and so do the Poor Souls in Purgatory (I invite you to find out why). She was singled out by God amidst all women, and Sacred Tradition has honored her above all creation all the way since the first century.

By the way: this belief on the “roots” is something to be very careful about. You do not seem to be fully aware of the fact that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are one, and that what was taught in Sacred Tradition is to receive the same honor and obedience as what was taught 2000 years ago. The word of God is living and the Church is growing. There were many things back then which we were not ready to know, and that the Spirit has been revealing to the Church through the Church - as Christ had willed.

Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away

St. Methodius, Church Father

“No sooner had Mary consented to be Mother of the Eternal Word, than she merited by this consent to be made Queen of the world and of all creatures. As many creatures as there are who serve God, so many there are who serve Mary: for as angels and men, and all things that are in heaven and on earth are subject to the empire of God, so are they also under the dominion of Mary”

St. Bernadine of Siena

“when the Blessed Virgin conceived the Eternal Word in her womb, and brought Him forth, she obtained half the kingdom of God; so that she is Queen of Mercy, as Jesus Christ is King of Justice”

St. Thomas Aquinas

“Since the flesh of Mary was not different from that of Jesus, how can the royal dignity of the Son be denied to the Mother? Hence we must consider the glory of the Son, not only as being common to, but as one with, that of His mother.”

Abbot Arnold of Chartres, biographer of St. Bernard of Clairvaux

 

[iloveangels]

Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.

This is a common problem for converts. Especially if they’re in an environment with people who don’t view the role of Mary from a balanced perspective. Keep that in mind. There’s a certain amount of the more “OUT-THERE” stuff you can just ignore.

 

[R_C]

Absolutely! My solution actually focuses on that title and nothing else.

Great I’m sort of curious…

 

[brb3]

As a former Protestant, I find the Rosary mind-numbing and overly repetitious. It is totally foreign to how Protestants approach prayer.

Its reminds us of Christ’s warning to the Jews about engaging in prayers of vain repetition. It is this fear of such repetition… that lays hard on a Protestant’s conscience, when they are exposed to the Rosary. Also, our Catholic teaching that there would be no more revelations after the last Apostle John, gives us pause and severe doubts about RECENT Marian revelations. !!

 

[iloveangels]

As a former Protestant, I find the Rosary mind-numbing and overly repetitious. It is totally foreign to how Protestants approach prayer.

Its reminds us of Christ’s warning to the Jews about engaging in prayers of vain repetition. It is this fear of such repetition… that lays hard on a Protestant’s conscience, when they are exposed to the Rosary. Also, our Catholic teaching that there would be no more revelations after the last Apostle John, gives us pause and severe doubts about RECENT Marian revelations. !!

Yes, that’s a very common response that converts have. But there are no requirements for using the rosary, or believing in Marian visions etc etc.

The rosary is a prayer method that you can use, or not. And there are plenty of prayer methods that might suit a person better, if they’re not comfortable with the rosary.

And the visions, well, honestly…you can take them or leave them. There is nothing essential to the faith in them that you can’t get elsewhere in tradition and scripture. And this is not my opinion solely. It’s also the opinion of the Church.

 

[brb3]

Recall where Paul in scripture reminds the first century Church converts to “hold firm to what they had been taught, by word & tradition”.

Now, was our current Church teaching on Mary believed/taught by Paul to them ?
:nope:

 

[iloveangels]

Recall where Paul in scripture reminds the first century Church converts to “hold firm to what they had been taught, by word & tradition”.

Now, was our current Church teaching on Mary believed/taught by Paul to them ?
:nope:

???