Church Mariology making me nuts!

[brb3]

???

A Rosary type prayer, belief in Marian Revelations, belief in her Sinless status regarding original sin, etc ? Paul wrote, " ALL HAVE SINNED, and fallen short of glory of God".

 

[nuntym]

Recall where Paul in scripture reminds the first century Church converts to “hold firm to what they had been taught, by word & tradition”.

Now, was our current Church teaching on Mary believed/taught by Paul to them ?
:nope:

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve.** As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin**.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180)

What do you think?

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

A Rosary type prayer, belief in Marian Revelations, belief in her Sinless status regarding original sin, etc ? Paul wrote, " ALL HAVE SINNED, and fallen short of glory of God".

ALL, including Christ?

Be careful, brb3, your heresy is showing.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Great I’m sort of curious…

I’m Eastern Catholic so you can look at how we focus on and honor the Theotokos. We don’t go overboard on titles like Mediatrix and all that. If “Theotokos” is not enough to describe and honor Mary, I don’t know what will.

Plus, as you will see that a great majority of icons about Mary has Christ always depicted. We do not separate her from Christ so we do not lose that focus that everything about her is ultimately about Christ.

 

[Chrish1975]

Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.

I am distressed at the amount of dedication that some Catholics have to Mary also. I don’t pray the rosary and very rarely say hail Mary. Mary is just another saint to me. Christ is the sole reason for my salvation and hope.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If we are serious and to be successful with our Ecumenism outreach to the Protestants …we need to stay with what scripture says on Mary, and not insist on Modern Day vintage revelations & Marian sightings.

Afterall, why would Mary wait 17-18 centuries, to begin teaching the Church how to pray and win souls ?

The Scriptures are mostly silent about Mary because of her deep, intimate relationship with Christians that such truths about her is only revelaed to those who are within the Church.

 

[R_C]

belief in her Sinless status regarding original sin, etc ? Paul wrote, " ALL HAVE SINNED, and fallen short of glory of God".

You are aware that for a Catholic to profess this is to fall into heresy, right?

I suggest you read “The Secret of the Rosary” by St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori. We know by experience that demons are terrified by Our Lady and by the prayer of the Rosary. This you may dismiss, but it won’t change things in the least bit.

 

[R_C]

I am distressed at the amount of dedication that some Catholics have to Mary also. I don’t pray the rosary and very rarely say hail Mary. Mary is just another saint to me. Christ is the sole reason for my salvation and hope.

Mary is greater than the saints, for all saints are friends of Christ, but she is the mother of Christ. You may even ignore her, if you want, but rest assured that God won’t.

You don’t need to say the Hail Mary if you don’t want to. God already told Her through Archangel Gabriel, and that is enough honor, she certainly does not need us unworthy sinners to give her honor.

 

[Chrish1975]

Mary is greater than the saints, for all saints are friends of Christ, but she is the mother of Christ. You may even ignore her, if you want, but rest assured that God won’t.

You don’t need to say the Hail Mary if you don’t want to. God already told Her through Archangel Gabriel, and that is enough honor, she certainly does not need us unworthy sinners to give her honor.

Jesus, I trust solely in you for my hope and salvation.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Jesus, I trust solely in you for my hope and salvation.

I wonder if you truly trust Jesus if you don’t like how He wants to do it

 

[brb3]

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve.** As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin**.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180)

What do you think?

I wish John the Apostle had penned these words … 80 years earlier.

Then, there would be no doubt of Christ’s intentions on Mediatrix position of Mary … for all time, for it would fall within the lifetime of last Apostle, and meet Catholic teaching on valid revelations that bind us to indisputable DOGMA.

 

[brb3]

+JMJ+

ALL, including Christ?

Be careful, brb3, your heresy is showing.

All Men/Women have sinned … not Christ the GOD-MAN !! We both know HE is the SUPERSTAR CREATOR … who does not sin [but willingly bore our sin], and was in no way being considered by Paul’s ALL, in the verse you allude to.

 

[brb3]

I suggest you read “The Secret of the Rosary” by St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori. We know by experience that demons are terrified by Our Lady and by the prayer of the Rosary.

Well, its usually the CROSS that demons draw back from … that Priests use in Exorcisms. I’ve never seen form/figure of Mary being used to drive them out.

 

[brb3]

Mary is greater than the saints, for all saints are friends of Christ, but she is the mother of Christ. You may even ignore her, if you want, but rest assured that God won’t.

You don’t need to say the Hail Mary if you don’t want to. God already told Her through Archangel Gabriel, and that is enough honor, she certainly does not need us unworthy sinners to give her honor.

RC …

None here wish to detract from Mary’s pre-eminent position [among women]. But, wouldn’t you agree that many others Prophets in OT/NT times ] had similar pre-eminence status.

John the Baptist, called the “greatest among men”, yet even those coming after him might obtain similar or greater status. Elijah, Elisha, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, are other examples of pre-eminent patriarchs / prophets … enjoyed ‘favored status’ and ‘special graces’ most Christians don’t have.

 

[R_C]

Well, its usually the CROSS that demons draw back from … that Priests use in Exorcisms. I’ve never seen form/figure of Mary being used to drive them out.

I do not know what your experience is on this matter, but I know that demons often complain that she is present to drive them away, or to shield the exorcist from the attack of the possessed. I know of one specific case in which the possessed struck the exorcist with all his strength, and the doctor present was terrified, but the priest kept going undisturbed. He later explained: Our Lady was by my side, and she covered me with her mantle. I felt almost nothing.

As for who did Christ chose to defeat Satan, I suggest you review Genesis and Revelation.

 

[R_C]

RC …

None here wish to detract from Mary’s pre-eminent position [among women]. But, wouldn’t you agree that many others Prophets in OT/NT times ] had similar pre-eminence status.

As spouse of the Holy Spirit and mother of Christ?

 

[brb3]

I do not know what your experience is on this matter, but I know that demons often complain that she is present to drive them away, or to shield the exorcist from the attack of the possessed. I know of one specific case in which the possessed struck the exorcist with all his strength, and the doctor present was terrified, but the priest kept going undisturbed. He later explained: Our Lady was by my side, and she covered me with her mantle. I felt almost nothing.

As for who did Christ chose to defeat Satan, I suggest you review Genesis and Revelation.

He’s my ‘opinion’ on Mary, — based on scriptures and some study of Catholic Doctrine on Mary.

She is greatest of women, and perhaps THE greatest saint. But, I’m not convinced she has any special authority or status that the Apostles or other great saints [Stephen, for example] don’t have. I believe ALL the Saints are active in hearing our prayers, and thus the Catholic Church teaches/promotes a whole host of Patron Saints for us.

Could not Peter, John or James interceed on our behalf before Christ… if our prayers are directed to them for such intercession ? Obviously, females need a great supersaint they can relate to. IMO, this is why Mary grew over time to gain her supersaint status … and plays a chief role as prayer intercessor for both males/females. But, is that roles more important than say Peter or the other Apostles ? I doubt it, although I’m sure she gets called upon, these days, more often than all the rest.

So, perhaps this is God’s plan … for her to be ‘the great mother’ of Church, and be the chief spiritual prayer partner for us ! But, to say/think she is the ONLY saint who can bring our prayers to Christ, or that the other saints have to have her blessing or assistance ----- I don’t see the Apostles or ECF’s believing or teaching this in scripture or their later writings.

 

[brb3]

As spouse of the Holy Spirit and mother of Christ?

Yes, only a female could fulfill that role … I’ll grant u that.
But, isn’t that enuf ?

Where do we see the need/call … to make her the Co-Redeemer or Mediatrix. To promote her to a Goddess role ? That is clearly a pagan fallacy of Greeks/Romans … that God abhorred !!!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thank you! That was an excellent and well-written article, but I can’t help but feel its answers are quite toned-down compared to the reality of the situation. The fact is, there are probably more rosaries offered up every day by Catholics than prayers to Jesus Christ. In terms of sheer volume, there are more prayers offered to Mary than to Jesus. Even calling her “Mother of God,” is really a semantical device. While we all understand that Mary is the Mother of Jesus and that Jesus is God (God the Son), calling her “Mother of God” is really a stretch. She is referred to as the “Mother of Jesus” in the BIble, never Mother of God, and the former is the more apt title. I love Mary, but I think the “questioner” in the article is right: Catholics are worshipping her, regardless of how the author tries to distinguish dulia and hyper-dulia. But a sincere thanks for posting the article.

But a rosary isn’t offered to Mary ‘instead of’ to Christ! And what is the ‘heart’ of the Hail Mary but the words, “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus?”

Mary is not competing with Christ. Attention given to her isn’t taking it away from Christ.

 

[Mintaka]

What is a “co-heir with Christ”?

When Paul talks about us being “co-heirs,” does he mean that God gives us exactly the same inheritance as Jesus, such that we are all God?

Or does “co-heir” mean someone who is a little heir, an associate heir, with Christ?

If we can all be co-heirs with Christ, what the heck is weird about Mary being a co-redeemer? Aren’t we all Christians? Didn’t Paul dare to say that his own sufferings were helping out with the redemption of the world?

Sigh… one post saying Mary’s nothing special, another post claiming Mary’s got too much… nobody pays attention to what’s right in front of them.