Church Mariology making me nuts!

[InJesusItrust]

Is this is the so called vision that I’m hearing about on the Catholic radio station where they ask all to contact the Pope to “okay” this as dogma?? If so, any kind of research on this “visionary?” makes it quite clear that there is no truth here.

I am thinking of Our Lady of All Nations and the fact that Benedict says that the doctrine is not contrary to faith.

I think it has to do with the triumph of the immaculate heart.

 

[R_C]

When the Pope declares is, I really do not think many will be accepting.

Follow my reasoning here:

Christ is the savior, and salvation is obtained only by His merits and in His name.

Who did Christ come through? That is, which way did the Son, second Divine Person of the Trinity, chose to be eternally united with men?

Then, through whom did salvation and all graces come to humanity? Through whom was God united to men?

Eve was brought forth from the flesh of Adam. From her disobedience came the disobedience of Adam, and mankind lost sanctifying grace.

The New Adam, Christ, was brought forth from the flesh of the New Eve, Mary. From her obedience came the obedience of Christ, and mankind found sanctifying grace.

Moses is great and his face shone with great light because He had seen the glory of God pass by and received and gave to the people the Law from God. What shall we say of Mary, who bore the glory of God in her womb, and received and gave to the people the living Word of God?

David is great because from him would come forth the Messiah. What shall we say of Mary, from whose flesh came forth the Messiah?

The Baptist is great because He was chosen beforehand by God to be the forerunner of Christ, was conceived naturally though in a miraculous way, and was filled by the Holy Spirit while yet unborn when Our Lady came to visit Elizabeth. What shall we say of Mary, who was chosen beforehand by God to be the Mother of Christ, who conceived Christ without knowing man, solely by the power of the Holy Spirit, and whom was found to be full of grace by the adoring archangel even before conceiving Christ?

It is true that Jesus is the only Savior, and that “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” However, this name was given through Mary: it was to her that God spoke through the archangel: “you shall name Him Jesus”.

If we believe in the Communion of Saints and in their intercession, then necessarily Her intercession is the greatest of them all before God, because all saints are friends of God and members of His mystical body, but She is the Mother of Christ (thus theotokos) and it is He who took flesh from her.

Why, for the sake of all that is good, don’t you just read Treatise on the True Devotion before trying to speak of Our Lady? Don’t you realize that it is utterly ridiculous to persist in an argument that is included amidst seven erroneous ways to see Our Lady? Read it, and then you will understand just which are the 3 proper ways to relate to Our Lady (which is what the Church does), you will understand your own misunderstandings, and perhaps you will stop impugning the revealed truth and start seeking understanding instead.

I neither gain nor lose anything by your irreverence towards Our Lady, but I firmly believe that you do. At least do learn rather than persisting in error. Once you learned, you can chose to ignore the teaching. But if you ignore the teaching, aren’t you embarrassed to try to teach others while persisting in ignorance?

I will post a few quotes from the Little Office shortly.

 

[R_C]

I will post a few quotes from the Little Office shortly.

From a letter by Saint Athanasius, bishop

The words of St John, the Word was made flesh, bear the same meaning, as we may see from a similar turn of phrase in St Paul: Christ was made a curse for our sake. Mary’s body has acquired something great through its communion and union with the Word. From being mortal it has been made immortal; though it was a living body it has become a spiritual one; though it was made from the earth it has passed through the gates of heaven. Even when the Word takes a body from Mary, the Trinity remains a Trinity, with neither increase nor decrease. It is for ever perfect. In the Trinity we acknowledge one Godhead, and thus one God, the Father of the Word, is proclaimed in the Church.

From a sermon by Saint Aelred, abbot

She is our mother — the mother of our life, the mother of our incarnation, the mother of our light. She then, as mother of Christ, is the mother of our wisdom and justice, of our holiness and redemption. She is more our mother than the mother of our flesh. Our birth from her is better, for from her is born our holiness, our wisdom, our justice, our sanctification, our redemption

From a sermon by Saint Sophronius, bishop

Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. What joy could surpass this, O Virgin Mother? What grace can excel that which God has granted to you alone? What could be imagined more dazzling or more delightful? Before the miracle we witness in you, all else pales; all else is inferior when compared with the grace you have been given. All else, even what is most desirable, must take second place and enjoy a lesser importance.

The Lord is with you. Who would dare challenge you? You are God’s mother; who would not immediately defer to you and be glad to accord you a greater primacy and honor? For this reason, when I look upon the privilege you have above all creatures, I extol you with the highest praise: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. On your account joy has not only graced men, but is also granted to the powers of heaven.

From a sermon by St. Anselm, bishop

The universe rejoices with new and indefinable loveliness. Not only does it feel the unseen presence of God himself, its Creator, it sees him openly, working and making it holy. These great blessings spring from the blessed fruit of Mary’s womb. Through the fullness of the grace that was given you, dead things rejoice in their freedom, and those in heaven are glad to be made new. Through the Son who was the glorious fruit of your virgin womb, just souls who died before his life-giving death rejoice as they are freed from captivity, and the angels are glad at the restoration of their shattered domain. Lady, full and overflowing with grace, all creation receives new life from your abundance. Virgin, blessed above all creatures, through your blessing all creation is blessed, not only creation from its Creator, but the Creator himself has been blessed by creation.

To Mary God gave his only-begotten Son, whom he loved as himself. Through Mary God made himself a Son, not different but the same, by nature Son of God and Son of Mary. The whole universe was created by God, and God was born of Mary. God created all things, and Mary gave birth to God. The God who made all things gave himself form through Mary, and thus he made his own creation. He who could create all things from nothing would not remake his ruined creation without Mary.

God, then, is the Father of the created world and Mary the mother of the re-created world. God is the Father by whom all things were given life, and Mary the mother through whom all things were given new life. For God begot the Son, through whom all things were made, and Mary gave birth to him as the Savior of the world. Without God’s Son, nothing could exist; without Mary’s Son, nothing could be redeemed.

 

[R_C]

From a homily delivered at the Council of Ephesus by Saint Cyril of Alexandria, bishop

Because of you the holy Trinity is glorified and adored; the cross is called precious and is venerated throughout the world; the heavens exult; the angels and archangels make merry; demons are put to flight; the devil, that tempter, is thrust down from heaven; the fallen race of man is taken up on high; all creatures possessed by the madness of idolatry have attained knowledge of the truth; believers receive holy baptism; the oil of gladness is poured out; the Church is established throughout the world; pagans are brought to repentance.

Because of you the light of the only-begotten Son of God has shone upon those who sat in darkness and in the shadow of death; prophets pronounced the word of God; the apostles preached salvation to the Gentiles; the dead are raised to life, and kings rule by the power of the holy Trinity.

From a homily by St. Bede the Venerable, priest

She alone was chosen, and she burned with spiritual love for the son she so joyously conceived. Above all other saints, she alone could truly rejoice in Jesus, her savior, for she knew that he who was the source of eternal salvation would be born in time in her body, in one person both her own son and her Lord. Mary attributes nothing to her own merits. She refers all her greatness to the gift of the one whose essence is power and whose nature is greatness, for he fills with greatness and strength the small and the weak who believe in him. She did well to add: and holy is his name, to warn those who heard, and indeed all who would receive his words, that they must believe and call upon his name. For they too could share in everlasting holiness and true salvation according to the words of the prophet: and it will come to pass, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. By meditating upon the incarnation, our devotion is kindled, and by remembering the example of God’s Mother, we are encouraged to lead a life of virtue.

From a sermon by St. Thomas of Villanova, bishop

What an amazing distinction for a woman, to have a Son in common with God. The Father loves his Son; the Mother rejoices in her Son. The Father tells his Son: from the womb, before the morning star, I begot you; the Mother says to her same Son: From the womb, I, a virgin, brought you into the world. She is amazed at her own glory, nor can she herself understand her elevation, for by the very fact of being made mother of the Creator she became with the best right mistress and queen of all creation. Truly, Mary he that is mighty, has done great things for you; truly because he made you his own mother, all generations of the ages will call you blessed.

 

[R_C]

From a homily by St. John Chrysostum, bishop

Believe what we say about the Virgin, and do not hesitate to confess her to be both servant and Mother of God, both virgin and mother. She is a servant as the creature of him who was born of her; she is the Mother of God inasmuch as of her God was born in human flesh. She is a virgin because she did not conceive from the seed of man; she is a mother because she gave birth and became the mother of him who before all eternity was begotten of the Father.

She is therefore the mother of the Lord of angels and our mother; from her the Son of God received the human body in which he consented to be crucified. Do you desire to know how far the Virgin surpasses the power of heaven? Give me your attention then. They veil their faces as they hover in fear and trembling, but she offers the human race to God, and through her we receive the forgiveness of our sins. She bore him whom the angels glorified when they came with reverence to be present at his birth. Glory to God in the highest, they sang, and peace to his people on earth.

From a sermon by St. Laurence Justinian, bishop

How entirely blessed was the mind of the Virgin which, through the indwelling and guidance of the Spirit, was always and in every way open to the power of the Word of God. She was not led by her own senses, nor by her own will; thus she accomplished outwardly through her body what wisdom from within gave to her faith. It was fitting for divine Wisdom, which created itself a home in the Church, to use the intervention of the most blessed Mary in guarding the law, purifying the mind, giving an example of humility and providing a spiritual sacrifice.

Imitate her, O faithful soul. Enter into the deep recesses of your heart so that you may be purified spiritually and cleansed from your sins. God places more value on good will in all we do than on the works themselves.

From a sermon by St. Bernard, Abbott

Truly, O blessed Mother, a sword has pierced your heart. For only by passing through your heart could the sword enter the flesh of your Son. Indeed, after your Jesus–who belongs to everyone, but is especially yours–gave up his life, the cruel spear, which was not withheld from his lifeless body, tore upon his side. Clearly it did not touch his soul and could not harm him, but it did pierce your heart. For surely his soul was no longer there, but yours could not be torn away. Thus the violence of sorrow has cut through your heart, and we rightly call you more than martyr, since the effect of compassion in you has gone beyond the endurance of physical suffering.

Do not be surprised, brothers, that Mary is said to be a martyr in spirit. Let him be surprised who does not remember the words of Paul, that one of the greatest crimes of the Gentiles was that they were without love. That was far from the heart of Mary; let it be far from her servants.

Perhaps someone will say: “Had she not known before that he would not die?” Undoubtedly. “Did she not expect him to rise again at once?” Surely. “And still she grieved over her crucified Son?” Intensely. Who are you and what is the source of your wisdom that you are more surprised at the compassion of Mary than at the passion of Mary’s Son? For if he could die in body, could she not die with him in spirit? He died in body through a love greater than anyone had known. She died in spirit through a love unlike any other since his.

Who are you and what is the source of your wisdom that you are more surprised at the compassion of Mary than at the passion of Mary’s Son? For if he could die in body, could she not die with him in spirit? He dies in body through a love greater than anyone had known. She died in spirit through a love unlike any other since his.

From a homily on the falling asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Saint Germanus of Constantinople, bishop

Truly, yes truly, and again I shall say in thanksgiving: even though you have left us, you have not deserted the Christian race. You who are like incorruptible life have not abandoned our mortal world, but on the contrary you draw near to those who call upon your name. You are found by those who faithfully seek you. And these visions indicate a living and continually active spirit and an everlasting body. For how could dissolution of the body return you to dust and ashes, you who delivered the human race from the destruction of death through the incarnation of your Son?

Indeed you left our earth to prove that the mystery of the awe-inspiring incarnation was really fulfilled. The fact that you waited for the natural end of human life would convince the world that the God who was born of you came into being also as perfect man, the Son of a true Mother, who was subject to the laws and constraints of nature, by divine decree and the requirement of an earthly lifetime. As one who possessed a human body you could not escape death, the common fate of humanity.

Thus even your Son, though God of all things, even he, through sharing, so to speak, the mortality of all our race, “tasted” a similar bodily “death.” It was clearly in the same way as he made his own life-giving tomb that he made your sepulcher wonderful also, as the tomb of your falling asleep, a tomb which received life; therefore both tombs really received your bodies, but could in no way affect them with corruption. For nor could you, as the vessel which contained God, waste away to dust in the destruction of death.

In this way, then, you suffered the death of finite beings and the translation to the immortal way of life of eternal beings where God dwells; and because you are his companion, Mother of God, you do not abandon your life with him.

 

[R_C]

From a sermon by Saint Aelred, abbot

We owe her honor, for she is the mother of our Lord. He who fails to honor the mother clearly dishonors the son. Also, Scripture says: Honor your father and your mother.

What then, my brothers, shall we say? Is she not our mother? Yes, my brothers, she is indeed our mother, for through her we have been born, not for the world but for God.

Once we all lay in death, as you know and believe, in sin, in darkness, in misery. In death, because we had lost the Lord; in sin, because of our corruption; in darkness, for we were without the light of wisdom, and thus had perished utterly.

But then we were born, far better than through Eve, through Mary the blessed, because Christ was born of her. We have recovered new life in place of sin, immortality instead of mortality, light in place of darkness.

She is our mother, the mother of our life, the mother of our incarnation, the mother of our light. As the Apostle says of our Lord, he became for us by God’s power our wisdom and justice, and holiness and redemption.

She then, as mother of Christ, is the mother of our wisdom and justice, of our holiness and redemption. She is more our mother than the mother of our flesh. Our birth from her is better, for from her is born our holiness, our wisdom, our justice, our sanctification, our redemption.

 

[JM3]

It seems obvious to me that the next dogma that is coming is Mary as mediatrix of all graces and this going to cause a schism.

Perhaps, you meant co-Redemptrix. Mediatrix of all graces was accepted long ago.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html

1. In order to understand better this sublime dignity of the Mother of God over all creatures let us recall that the holy Mother of God was, at the very moment of her Immaculate Conception, so filled with grace as to surpass the grace of all the Saints. Wherefore, as Our Predecessor of happy memory, Pius IX wrote, God “showered her with heavenly gifts and graces from the treasury of His divinity so far beyond what He gave to all the angels and saints that she was ever free from the least stain of sin; she is so beautiful and perfect, and possesses such fullness of innocence and holiness, that under God a greater could not be dreamed, and only God can comprehend the marvel.”[55]

1. Besides, the Blessed Virgin possessed, after Christ, not only the highest degree of excellence and perfection, but also a share in that influence by which He, her Son and our Redeemer, is rightly said to reign over the minds and wills of men. For if through His Humanity the divine Word performs miracles and gives graces, if He uses His Sacraments and Saints as instruments for the salvation of men, why should He not make use of the role and work of His most holy Mother in imparting to us the fruits of redemption? “With a heart that is truly a mother’s,” to quote again Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, “does she approach the problem of our salvation, and is solicitous for the whole human race; made Queen of heaven and earth by the Lord, exalted above all choirs of angels and saints, and standing at the right hand of her only [55a] Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother’s prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused.”[56] On this point another of Our Predecessors of happy memory, Leo XIII, has said that an “almost immeasurable” power has been given Mary in the distribution of graces;[57] St. Pius X adds that she fills this office “as by the right of a mother.”[58]

 

[iloveangels]

Is this is the so called vision that I’m hearing about on the Catholic radio station where they ask all to contact the Pope to “okay” this as dogma?? If so, any kind of research on this “visionary?” makes it quite clear that there is no truth here.

Yeah, there are a lot of goofballs out there and some of them make it onto the radio. Don’t let this stuff bother you. It’s just part of the Catholic landscape.

 

[iloveangels]

From a letter by Saint Athanasius, bishop

From a sermon by Saint Aelred, abbot

From a sermon by Saint Sophronius, bishop

From a sermon by St. Anselm, bishop

Devotional stuff. Don’t get carried away.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

In regards to such titles as “co-redemptrix” remember that the latin prefix of “co” almost always denotes a strictly subordinate and dependent status–something pointed out to me by an evangelical friend who said he always hated the phrase “God is my co-pilot” for this very reason. Even someone as effusive and flowerey and near over the top in his praise of Mary as St. Alphonsus Ligouri always made it clear that the BVM status was utterly dependent upon her Son’s status.

In scripture, her cousin Elizabeth declares Mary “the mother of my Lord” which is just one half-step from saying “Mother of God”, especially as the story progresses in scripture.

 

[Nita]

brb3:

Originally Posted by** johnbres2 **

Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.
**No one has addressed this conundrum in scripture. If we are not to take Christ’s words literally, then what was he saying to the Church about Mary?**There’s no difficulty. Jesus is saying that Mary is more to be blessed - will receive more blessing - because she chose to do God’s will (Luke 1:38 “…be it done to me according to thy word.”) than for the fact that Jesus was physically present in her womb.

 

[vames]

Is this is the so called vision that I’m hearing about on the Catholic radio station where they ask all to contact the Pope to “okay” this as dogma?? If so, any kind of research on this “visionary?” makes it quite clear that there is no truth here.

Exactly. I know there was (still is?) even an online petition to the Pope to proclaim the dogma fast. Understandable, since the “vision” predicted the new dogma will be soon proclaimed, so no dogma = no truth in the “vision”.
But there will be no new dogma, as their own site acknowledges:

Regarding this title, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, at the time Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said to the German journalist, Peter Seewald, in his book “God and the World”, that the cooperation of Mary in the plan of redemption “is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula ‘Co-Redemptrix’ departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstanding.” Joachim Cardinal Meisner also shares the same opinion regarding this issue.

de-vrouwe.info/en/the-dogma

 

[InJesusItrust]

I do have a devotion to Mary. I am just saying that some people think that we are making a goddess.

The Immaculate Heart of Mary is intimately connected to the Eucharistic Heart of Jesus in my opinion. We are actually consuming the flesh that Jesus inherited from Mary. He had no fleshly father. Every time one drinks the blood of Jesus one is declaring oneself to be the child of Mary. Her ancestoral blood courses through our veins. If she is the.mother of God, this does not seem like a stretch.

 

[Cranch]

I’m familiar with Tim Staples ideas on Mary. Once got his 5-6 hr CD on Mary/Marian Dogma.

However, doesn’t the Angel say “the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and you will bear a son” ? This presumes that Mary was not conceived by the H.S. herself, or had received the H.S. earlier in her life … and needed to filled with, as a young adult.

On the otherhand, scriptures teaches that John the Baptist was “FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE WOMB”. Now, you tell me which of the two was created early in life, in the more SINLESS fashiion ?

IMO, scripture supports the origin of John as the more miraculous. That his conception/birth was protected from original sin … rather than Mary’s.

Wow. You really are laboring under critical misunderstandings of Catholic dogma. The idea that John the Baptist was without original sin is not Catholic teaching. Saying Jesus’ miraculous birth through the agency of the Holy Spirit proves Mary was not conceived by the Holy Spirit is bizarre as the Church teaches no such thing about Mary’s birth. That would have made Mary God incarnate. Mary was a creature with human parents like any other. Uniquely—meaning alone among ordinary humans—she was, through the grace of God, preserved from sin and “redeemed, immaculate from the moment of her conception.” (Gaudete In Domino)

 

[Cranch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbres2

Did you miss Post #4? :

One thing that you might want to meditate on, with that particular Scripture (which is read aloud in every Catholic Church on a regular basis, by the way - it’s not hidden away! ), is to ask yourself: didn’t Mary do exactly that? Perhaps what Jesus is saying here is that we should indeed bless Mary, not only because she was His mother, but because she was the very first one to “hear the Word of God and keep it”.

Didn’t she, in fact, “do the will of my Father in Heaven” by saying “Yes!” to His request that she bear the Son of God? Doesn’t Scripture show that she followed Him from the beginning of His life till the very end - when even His apostles had deserted him?

In fact, she had a more unique relationship with the Word of God than any human being before or since - as a wonderful Protestant Christmas hymn I heard once put it, “Mary was the first one to carry the Gospel!”

(And for what it’s worth - I agree with you that the “Mary’s flesh is in the Eucharist” crowd is going WAYYYY overboard - but please know that the Church does not teach that! It’s definitely NOT something you have to accept or believe as a Catholic! )

 

[JM3]

No one has addressed this conundrum in scripture. If we are not to take Christ’s words literally, then what was he saying to the Church about Mary ?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9934467&postcount=95

The woman who said, “Blessed is she who nursed you at her breasts” believed that blessing was bestowed because one was Jewish, or because one was born into a certain family, or because one was the mother of the King or mother of so-and-so. Remember that these are Jewish texts. We have to think like a Jew. Jesus is correcting the woman, telling the crowd that it is obedience to God which makes one an adopted son of the Father and therefor blessed, not circumcision or being a member of a specific tribe or nation or houshold.

Jesus is telling the crowd something specific about Mary. That’s what the conversation was about - Jesus’ mother. That’s what the woman who precipitated Jesus’ statement was talking about - Jesus’ mother. Jesus is telling the crowd that his mother is not blessed because she is a Jew, or because she is the Mother of the King/prophet, or because she nursed the Christ, but that she is blessed because she does God’s will.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9934525&postcount=99

 

[Cranch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hansard

The truth is more complex. The Church teaches public revelation regarding the deposit of faith has ended. Private revelation still occurs and in many cases has been recognized by the Church as taught in the Catechism:

66 “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

Marian apparitions, even those sanctioned and approved by the Church, still constitute private revelation.

 

[fred_conty]

Wow. You really are laboring under critical misunderstandings of Catholic dogma. The idea that John the Baptist was without original sin is not Catholic teaching. Saying Jesus’ miraculous birth through the agency of the Holy Spirit proves Mary was not conceived by the Holy Spirit is bizarre as the Church teaches no such thing about Mary’s birth. That would have made Mary God incarnate. Mary was a creature with human parents like any other. Uniquely—meaning alone among ordinary humans—she was, through the grace of God, preserved from sin and “redeemed, immaculate from the moment of her conception.” (Gaudete In Domino)

Cranch, you said,
“The idea that John the Baptist was without original sin is not Catholic teaching.”

I would agree that it has not been made a dogma but it is acceptable in this sense. That 3 months into his conception, upon Mary’s visitation with Elizabeth, the bible does say that John was filled with the Holy Spirit. This very well could mean that John was cleansed of all sin and born without sin, tho he was not conceived without sin. I know nothing in the faith that would prohibit this.

Their might be the thought that Jesus hadn’t died yet, and therefore this couldn’t happen to John since salvation had not yet be accomplished on the cross.

But before answering that, consider St. Joseph. He was a holy man and a father to Jesus, tho not a natural father. Was he or could he have been in grace, sanctifying grace? Even tho the cross of salvation had not yet taken place?

And also consider all those whose sins Jesus forgave, including Mary Magdelene, who was the first to see Jesus at the tomb.

Many believe they were indeed in sanctifying grace, Moses and all the holy prophets, and other holy people in past generations.

But the gate of heaven was not opened until our redemption was accomplished on the cross, tho many had sanctifying grace.

I don’t mean to derail the topic but this seemed important in relationship with Mary.

I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[iloveangels]

I do have a devotion to Mary. I am just saying that some people think that we are making a goddess.

The Immaculate Heart of Mary is intimately connected to the Eucharistic Heart of Jesus in my opinion. We are actually consuming the flesh that Jesus inherited from Mary. He had no fleshly father. Every time one drinks the blood of Jesus one is declaring oneself to be the child of Mary. Her ancestoral blood courses through our veins. If she is the.mother of God, this does not seem like a stretch.

That’s allegory and it’s a little wild, blood coursing through veins and all that. Unfounded allegory can be a problem. If you want to say something like this in public you have to have substantial doctrinal support and you don’t. This is just your opinion. So if you want to think of this like this, it’s devotional only and it’s your thing, but you can’t teach it as church doctrine because it’s NOT.

 

[Cranch]

Cranch, you said,
“The idea that John the Baptist was without original sin is not Catholic teaching.”

I would agree that it has not been made a dogma but it is acceptable in this sense. That 3 months into his conception, upon Mary’s visitation with Elizabeth, the bible does say that John was filled with the Holy Spirit. This very well could mean that John was cleansed of all sin and born without sin, tho he was not conceived without sin. I know nothing in the faith that would prohibit this.

Their might be the thought that Jesus hadn’t died yet, and therefore this couldn’t happen to John since salvation had not yet be accomplished on the cross.

But before answering that, consider St. Joseph. He was a holy man and a father to Jesus, tho not a natural father. Was he or could he have been in grace, sanctifying grace? Even tho the cross of salvation had not yet taken place?

And also consider all those whose sins Jesus forgave, including Mary Magdelene, who was the first to see Jesus at the tomb.

Many believe they were indeed in sanctifying grace, Moses and all the holy prophets, and other holy people in past generations.

But the gate of heaven was not opened until our redemption was accomplished on the cross, tho many had sanctifying grace.

I don’t mean to derail the topic but this seemed important in relationship with Mary.

I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

My point was to emphasize that Mary alone was conceived without sin, not who in Scripture may have had their sins forgiven or through grace led a sinless life. As you affirm the Baptist was not conceived sinless. It is a pious belief of some that because the angel told Zachary his son would be filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, that he was born without sin. And yet Luke also says at the time the child leapt in her womb, Elizabeth was also filled with the Holy Spirit. Did Elizabeth receive sanctifying grace? I certainly can’t say. Recall also that John the Baptist desired baptism from Jesus.

Sanctifying grace is conferred at baptism, yet we nevertheless are not freed from the urge to sin. Is it possible to know whether or not any biblical figure who may have received sanctifying grace remained in that state permanently? As Paul wrote to the baptized faithful in Phillipians: “Wherefore, my dearly beloved…with fear and trembling work out your salvation.”