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stewstew03
Guest
You are correct - belief in the Immaculate Conception was not a heresy in the early Church.
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stewstew03
Guest
Tradition, which is ALWAYS consistent with Sacred Scripture.
Have you read Ineffabilis Deus? Everything that has been said here can be found in that document. You might read it and then come back to the table to discuss.
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stewstew03
Guest
JWs make a similar argument vis-a-vis the doctrine of the Trinity.
“If it’s so important why didn’t any of the Apostles mention it…?”
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stewstew03
Guest
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brb3
Guest
Not at all.
I’m asking Catholics to support our CURRENT Catholic teachings on Mary … in a clear way, c/w what was taught/known about her in first 200 yrs of Church.
Can you / we do that ? If not, why not ?
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InJesusItrust
Guest
I can’t because dogmas take centuries before they are infallibly defined. I can argue that the Church has this authority.
F
fred_conty
Guest
InJesustrust,
The divine revealed truth is like a flower. At first, a small bud, then a larger bud, then a flower bud, then the open flower. The developement of truth and liturgy in the church is like the flower bud.
In the early church it is sometimes difficult to see because it is in the initial stage of developement. But the Holy Spirit teaching us all things, it grows into something
more beautiful. The liturgy of Communion is like this, which has everything from the beginning, but gets more enhanced.
Here is a citaton which explains this quite well.
philvaz.com/apologetics/debate26.htm
“The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a classic example of the development of doctrine” (see Mariology edited by Juniper Carol, volume 1, page 18). Why? Because Catholic theologians have distinguished three stages in the progressive awareness of a revealed truth over time: (1) the first is “implicit acceptance”; (2) second is “the period of discussion and controversy”; (3) third is “the doctrine is received by the entire Church” or “finally even solemnly defined.”
Without going into all the details, these three stages fit the Holy Trinity, the canon of Scripture, and the Marian dogmas.
On the Immaculate Conception, the first stage is “the tranquil acceptance of the unique graces and privileges of Mary…The early Christians accepted Mary’s singular position as Mother of God, as ever a virgin, as all-holy, as the new Eve. Thereby they implicitly accepted the Immaculate Conception, which is implied by the divine motherhood.” During this period the first liturgical evidences appear: feasts of the Conception of St. Anne, hymns, homilies, etc (see Mariology volume 1 page 17ff, 344ff – if anyone wants to dig deeper into development, the Fathers and Scripture on the Marian doctrines, find these three volumes by Carol).
Just some thoughts.
The divine revealed truth is like a flower. At first, a small bud, then a larger bud, then a flower bud, then the open flower. The developement of truth and liturgy in the church is like the flower bud.
In the early church it is sometimes difficult to see because it is in the initial stage of developement. But the Holy Spirit teaching us all things, it grows into something
more beautiful. The liturgy of Communion is like this, which has everything from the beginning, but gets more enhanced.
Here is a citaton which explains this quite well.
philvaz.com/apologetics/debate26.htm
“The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a classic example of the development of doctrine” (see Mariology edited by Juniper Carol, volume 1, page 18). Why? Because Catholic theologians have distinguished three stages in the progressive awareness of a revealed truth over time: (1) the first is “implicit acceptance”; (2) second is “the period of discussion and controversy”; (3) third is “the doctrine is received by the entire Church” or “finally even solemnly defined.”
Without going into all the details, these three stages fit the Holy Trinity, the canon of Scripture, and the Marian dogmas.
On the Immaculate Conception, the first stage is “the tranquil acceptance of the unique graces and privileges of Mary…The early Christians accepted Mary’s singular position as Mother of God, as ever a virgin, as all-holy, as the new Eve. Thereby they implicitly accepted the Immaculate Conception, which is implied by the divine motherhood.” During this period the first liturgical evidences appear: feasts of the Conception of St. Anne, hymns, homilies, etc (see Mariology volume 1 page 17ff, 344ff – if anyone wants to dig deeper into development, the Fathers and Scripture on the Marian doctrines, find these three volumes by Carol).
Just some thoughts.
I
inkaneer
Guest
Maybe you can inform us of just what Catholic teachings on Mary that current Catholics are not supporting and while you are at it explain what is different today than in the first 200 years of the church.
Bear in mind that our understanding of the Trinity was not formally defined in the first 200 years of the church either. But the understanding that we Catholics, as well as all Trinitarian protestant denominations, have today does not contradict the faith of the first 200 years. Just as a light turned on in a dark room does not change the room but only enables one to more clearly see the room; so too formal definition of doctrine illuminates the doctrine to allow one to understand it more clearly.
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hazcompat
Guest
Lumen Gentium
III. On the Blessed Virgin and the Church
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
61. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was in this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)
For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
Peace
III. On the Blessed Virgin and the Church
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
61. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was in this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)
For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
Peace
B
brb3
Guest
Ok … here we read what the Church teaches on Mary. How does her role differ from any of the other SuperSaints on Church calender?
Can’t John the Baptist, any of the Apostles, Stephen, or the great Martyrs of Renown … intercede or benefit us ( in this life ) equally well,… in our efforts to persevere ?
Why do we need to elevate one of our SuperSaints to Mediatrix of All Grace status ?
Especially when we recall Christ’s words to us on Mary, when a Jewish lady tried to promote Mary to the SuperWoman status …and Christ would not hear/acquiesce to promotion of Mary above all the other faithful ChristIans.
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stewstew03
Guest
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hazcompat
Guest
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
First, did any other saint give birth to and raise our Savior all the way to the cross? Was any other saint so trusting of God’s will that she said, “Be it done to me according to His word”, and so trusting of His will that she said, IN PUBLIC, “Do whatever He tells you?” (I seem to recall that St. Peter denied Christ 3 times, ALL the apostles deserted Him when He was arrested, and St. Paul before his conversion was present at the stoning of St. Stephen and persecuted early Christians.
Second, “We’ are not elevating anybody. God chose Mary and HE elevated her above all women. By being 'mother of the Lord” God made Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth, as the Mother of a King is such> Also, I still think you misunderstand exactly what the Church teaches about what Mediatrix of All Grace means.
Third, you also seem to misunderstand Scripture Christ was NOT ‘running his mother down’. He was saying that Mary was not elevated SOLELY by being His mother but by LISTENING TO THE WORD OF GOD (as she did by her “Yes” to God’s request) and doing His Will (as she did her LIFE LONG).
But that is exactly what happens when people want to ‘assume’ that they can just cherry pick Scripture and understand it ‘outside of’ tradition and without, as the Eunuch told Philip, ‘anybody to help them understand’.
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R_C
Guest
First, there are no other “supersaints”. You probably know what the Communion of Saints is, and thus what the Church Triumphant is. Well, all “saints” (as in the canonized and in general all those admitted to the Beatific Vision) are members of the Church Triumphant, and to them the Church offers veneration of dulia, a honor given them because of and in praise of God, for all creatures are nothing if separated from God.
To Our Lady, however, since She was chosen before and above all other human creatures to be the mother of Christ, from whom the Son, that is God Himself, would take flesh, we offer a higher sort of honor, indeed hyperdulia (literally beyond veneration). This is infinitely less than latria or adoration, reserved to God, to God alone.
She was in fact above all other saints for the simple fact that the greatest of all prophets, John the Baptist, confessed through the Spirit that he was not even worthy to untie the Lord’s sandals, while Mary was found worthy to be His mother.
All other saints of past, present, and future have been adopted by God, have become spiritual children of God. Mary has become the mother of God.
Furthermore, all saints have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God; in fact, the greater the holiness achieved, the greater the humbleness they displayed, acknowledging their utter nothingness and misery before the Almighty. Mary, on the other hand, was blessed with the fullness of grace. Forget all translations: here is the 4th Century Biblia Sacra Vulgata:
The angel clearly said: hail, you who are full of grace! God is with you! You are blessed among all women.
No creature ever received such salutation. The only other who ever received such a great display of love was the Son of God Himself: in several occasions, not an angel, but the Father Himself spoke and affirmed: “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Thus, the Father has honored His Son above all else, and after Him, He has honored Our Lady above all other creatures.
And who spoke that message?
He who was to speak to Our Lady, “the virgin who was to conceive and give birth to a son” according to the words of Isaiah, but before He would speak to the husband of she who was to be the mother of the forerunner of Christ, John the Baptist. And who was this woman and why was she chosen? She was Elizabeth, chosen because she was the cousin of Mary, the Blessed Virgin.
Another passage of the Scripture, perhaps not very famous, is from the prophet Micah, approx. 800 years before Christ:
You say that Christ would not promote Mary above others, but that is gravely and factually erroneous. In fact, to the request of His mother is due the very first miracle of Christ, whom in fact expressed with clear words that “his time had not yet come”; however, by her intercession He consented to perform the first great sign, and a very profound and mystical one: the conversion of water in wine. I invite you to find out more about the meaning of water and wine in the Scriptures. And the Spirit must certainly inspired the words of the banquet master, who said to the bridegroom:
Not only that, but this sign had a major impact amidst the apostles:
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R_C
Guest
Continued.
Perhaps you are touched by Lk 8:21?
Perhaps you are touched by Lk 8:21?
But this did not diminish her in the least bit. Christ emphasized that He, His mother, and his brethren were not united in the flesh but in the spirit, and indeed the Church sees and honors Mary as “the ‘exemplary realization’ (typus) of the Church” as well as the mother in grace of all Christians (for the Church is the body of Christ, the son of Mary), and indeed the Doctor of the Church St. Ambrose (4th Century) said:
Perhaps then you find scandal in Lk 11:27-28?
But there is no diminishing of Our Lady in His words, for He is emphasizing that Her glory is not in her natural motherhood, in the flesh, but in her spiritual motherhood, in the faith. It was not her nursing the Christ that was worthy of greater blessing: it was her faith, the very faith which brought forth Christ! Let us never forget that the Word became flesh after her free consent. As St, Ambrose wrote:
And who was greater than Our Lady in hearing the word of God and keeping it? Was it not Her who said to God: “let it be done unto me according to thy word”? Was it not her who conceived the living Word of God?
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brb3
Guest
Hello …
Aren’t we all ‘Fully Graced’ sons / daughters of God …at the moment of our Baptism in HS ?
And, thereafter to be servants / followers of Christ… via imitation & obedience. And, if so…are we not promised to be the equals (perhaps even greater than) of John & Mary.
Christ calls ALL redeemed children to SuperSaints status …made possible via our counselor / spiritual advocate… the Third Person of Trinity
We are charged by Christ not to grieve the HS … if we are to honor & please God. Yes, we honor our Earthly Fathers/Mothers too, …so I see that as giving thanks to Mary on regular basis, but, when I kneel before her Icon, I always remind Mary ( and myself) that her Son is our Savior and our TOTAL focus, not she.
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R_C
Guest
Yes, but somehow not even one of us throughout history has been able to remain in the fullness of grace. She was. Christ indeed established the Sacrament of Reconciliation to restore in us the fullness of baptismal grace every time we lose it.
Because of this, that is, because we will never be able to perfectly imitate Mary in her perfect obedience and in remaining the entire life in the fullness of grace, she is greater. But even if it were possible that another creature would equal her in this feat, she would still be greater because God chose her above all others to be the mother of Christ. Nobody could dare to call himself equal to her, much less greater. To be more clear: you do understand that the Lord’s flesh, blood, and DNA are Mary’s flesh, blood, and DNA? Is it not clear enough? The Divine Person, the living Word, was generated by the Father, but all else came from Mary. How can any creature claim equality to her?
Christ called none to a supersaint status. Christ called us to be good disciples, that is, saints, and promised that to the devout followers He would come, and the Father would also come, and they would be one, in the unity of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.
Excellent! Anything else would be a horrible heresy! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Mary would be utter nothingness if it were not for Christ. She is who she is because of Christ. And I, wretched sinner, need not remind the mother of Christ that the focus is Christ: she already knew as a young lady when, having bowed her head before the Archangel, professed that she was the lowly servant of God, and later, when she told the servants of the bridegroom: “do whatever He tells you.”
J
JM3
Guest
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20091896_fidentem-piumque-animum_en.html
Luke 1:41 - And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
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brb3
Guest
Wow RC … u give a powerful apologetic on Mary !!!
Its all starting to gel in my formerly Protestant brain …
Its all starting to gel in my formerly Protestant brain …
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Cranch
Guest
God bless you R_C, you have the patience of Job but I wonder which sins against the faith have been most on display in this thread:
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief.
Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.
Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.
Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.
- Status