Church of Christ

[excaliber]

I have a friend that was very impressed by members of Church of Christ, because of her getting biblical answers for all her questions, and there teaching that all athority comes from the bible.

For example they won’t use music in church because the new testament dose not say that you can use music in church.
She wanted to know why Catholics use candels and incense in church if the new testament dosent give athority to do so.

She also wants to know how we are sure that the Catholic records of Apostolic succesion
And ancient writings were not tamperd with and falsified.

And dose anyone know much about the history of Church of Christ movement.

 

[Zenas]

The Church of Christ came out of what is known as the Restoration Movement in the first half of the 19th Century. Its founders were Barton Stone of Kentucky and Alexander Campbell, who was from what is now West Virginia. Both these men had Presbyterian roots, although Campbell became a Baptist before starting the Movement. They actually worked independently of each other until 1832 when they joined forces with a handshake.

The Restoration Movement was itself an effort to restore the church to its New Testament roots. They grew rapidly in the 19th Century, drawing most of their members from Baptist churches. They rejected all tradition and all creeds except the New Testament. If the New Testament required it they did it. If the New Testament didn’t require it, they did not do it.

Soon there arose a division over what really is required by the New Testament and the Movement split into the Church of Christ and the Christian Church. The latter became known as Disciples of Christ in the 20th Century. Today there are actually three branches–Disciples (somewhat liberal), independent Christian churches (somewhat conservative) and Churches of Christ (most conservative).

Churches of Christ observe the Lord’s Supper every Sunday, following the N.T. example of Acts 20:7. They practice believer’s baptism by immersion and believe this is for remission of sins as in Acts 2:38. They have deacons, who are servants of the church and elders, who serve as the governing body of the church. Only men are permitted to hold these offices. Moreover, women are not permitted to speak in church or to teach men. They do not use musical instruments because there is no mention of them being used in the Christian church of the N.T.

Today the Church of Christ exists throughout the United States. However, its center of gravity is probably Nashville, Tenn. where it is very strong and very prominent. Nashville is headquarters of the Gospel Advocate Company, their publishing house. It is also the location of David Lipscomb University which has strong ties to the Church of Christ.

 

[Third_Day]

=excaliber;6198272]I have a friend that was very impressed by members of Church of Christ, because of her getting biblical answers for all her questions, and there teaching that all athority comes from the bible.

Get your friend the book *Christ in His Fullness *by Bruce Sullivan. He was a Church of Christ minister that converted to the Catholic Church. It is his conversion story and I believe that it would be very eye-opening for your friend.

 

[crazzeto]

I have a friend that was very impressed by members of Church of Christ, because of her getting biblical answers for all her questions, and there teaching that all athority comes from the bible.

For example they won’t use music in church because the new testament dose not say that you can use music in church.
She wanted to know why Catholics use candels and incense in church if the new testament dosent give athority to do so.

She also wants to know how we are sure that the Catholic records of Apostolic succesion
And ancient writings were not tamperd with and falsified.

And dose anyone know much about the history of Church of Christ movement.

I would ask your friend this question, at what point did Jesus give his authority to the bible?

Next point to ponder, at what point did Jesus give his authority to the Apostles.

Question 1 can’t be answered from the bible, because Jesus never did this. Jesus did in fact give his authority to the Apostles though, this can be seen in several places in the bible.

I would also see if your local parish offers a bible study, if they do get your friend involved at a bible study there. Hope this helps .

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have a friend that was very impressed by members of Church of Christ, because of her getting biblical answers for all her questions, and there teaching that all athority comes from the bible.

If all authority comes from the Bible, where is it listed which letters and epistles are to be included in the Bible? If it is truly the only source of authority, it seems that information would be listed.

**1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,**

For example they won’t use music in church because the new testament dose not say that you can use music in church.
She wanted to know why Catholics use candels and incense in church if the new testament dosent give athority to do so.

Music and singing:

**Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field and when he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual canticles, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord:

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly: in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God.

Rev 15:3 And singing the canticle of Moses, the servant of God, and the canticle of the Lamb, saying: Great and wonderful are thy works, O Lord God Almighty. Just and true are thy ways, O King of ages.**

Incense:

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.

She also wants to know how we are sure that the Catholic records of Apostolic succesion
And ancient writings were not tamperd with and falsified.

This is easy for the Church of Christ to question, as the age of their Church, and it’s succesion, is easy to verify. Will it be the same if that Church lasts 2000 years?

Not only are there Church records, secular history has recorded the men of the Catholic Church. It appears the only reason to question those records is to ‘justify’ their separation from the Catholic Church.

The Bible was written by fallible men, translated by fallible men, interpreted by fallible men and preserved through the ages by fallible men. Some writings of the early Church fathers were considered and for whatever reason rejected as scriptures. Does them invalidate all that was written? If it does, then certainly any writings since then, including writings by authors today, are invalidated. This would include anything written by members of the Church of Christ.

And dose anyone know much about the history of Church of Christ movement.

We have to know exactly which ‘Church of Christ’ we’re talking about.

Church of Christ is the name of several church denominations, some of which are closely related to one another and some of which are not.

 

[choy]

I have a friend that was very impressed by members of Church of Christ, because of her getting biblical answers for all her questions, and there teaching that all athority comes from the bible.

For example they won’t use music in church because the new testament dose not say that you can use music in church.
She wanted to know why Catholics use candels and incense in church if the new testament dosent give athority to do so.

what about this?

Matthew 26:30
And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

if Jesus and the Apostles sing hymns, why can’t we in church?

She also wants to know how we are sure that the Catholic records of Apostolic succesion
And ancient writings were not tamperd with and falsified.

how sure are they that its not?

how sure are we that George Washington is a real man or a real hero? maybe he’s just a random guy they eventually made stories of to symbolize ideals, etc. what more proof do they need? the records are there and the records are just as good as any record we have today, whether it be popes, kings, presidents, etc.

And dose anyone know much about the history of Church of Christ movement.

there have been quite a few restorationist movements called Church of Christ, even the LDS was known as Church of Christ during their early years. i’m more familiar with the one started in the Philippines called Iglesia ni Cristo, which translates to Church of Christ and they are known as such outside the Philippines. so which one are we talking about?

 

[katrntogo]

if Jesus and the Apostles sing hymns, why can’t we in church?

They sing hymns but don’t allow any musical instruments. They also have no pictures of Christ, etc. (I was married to one before I converted) Women are generally considered second class citizens even out of the church. If a woman has a question, they have to ask their husband & he will ask the Elders.

 

[Nine_Two]

The vast majority of Orthodox Churches also don’t use music. This is not because it isn’t mentioned in the bible, but because we just never have, some parishes do and the reception of music is generally greeted with some hostility, not because it is unbiblical, but because it isn’t in our tradition.

Not doing something because the bible never specifies that you should is never a good reason. If you want to take that approach there are many things one should avoid doing. For example, using any technology that has been developed since the second century.

 

[choy]

The vast majority of Orthodox Churches also don’t use music. This is not because it isn’t mentioned in the bible, but because we just never have, some parishes do and the reception of music is generally greeted with some hostility, not because it is unbiblical, but because it isn’t in our tradition.

Not doing something because the bible never specifies that you should is never a good reason. If you want to take that approach there are many things one should avoid doing. For example, using any technology that has been developed since the second century.

or going to the bathroom for that matter

 

[Darron_Steele]

I have a friend that was very impressed by members of Church of Christ, because of her getting biblical answers for all her questions, and there teaching that all athority comes from the bible.

For example they won’t use music in church because the new testament dose not say that you can use music in church.
She wanted to know why Catholics use candels and incense in church if the new testament dosent give athority to do so.

She also wants to know how we are sure that the Catholic records of Apostolic succesion
And ancient writings were not tamperd with and falsified.

And dose anyone know much about the history of Church of Christ movement.

I think I know a bit.

Back in late 1700’s and early 1800’s, there was a drive to end two things:
a) hostile relations between church groups, and
b) bondage to ecclesiastical authorities and their precepts.
The solution: `back to the Bible, unite on what we can agree on its teachings, and get rid of the fluff.’ It was the beginning of the Restoration Movement.

The approach varied. The old Christian Connexion led by James O’Kelly/O’Kelley, Abner Jones, Elias Smith, and later also Barton Stone attempted to build a unity without regard to denominational lines and allowing for disagreement among Christians. They generally did not believe that their opinions on what Scripture taught should be made conditions of fellowship.

Shortly thereafter, another individual showed up named Alexander Campbell. He and people who followed him were more certain that their opinions on what Scripture should be what Christians should
a) unite upon,
b) divide against others who do not agree with those opinions.
Barton Stone, unfortunately, was so adamant about unity by means of uniting church groups that he took half of his portion of the Christian Connexion into A. Campbell’s group. The result: adherents of A. Campbell’s group started pushing their opinions and attitudes onto the newly merged part of B. Stone’s group. This merger made what became the Disciples of Christ + Christian Churches + Churches of Christ a much larger group than the Christian Connexion.

This larger group gained most of its growth by competing with outside church groups for members. However, part of the problem with this group’s nature was that all too often, adherents were sure that their opinions on what Scripture teaches really were what Scripture teaches – and that they were justified dividing against and competing with church people who disagreed with them. In 1906 those who hated musical instruments split off the larger Restoration body. That breakaway group is the Churches of Christ.

In the 1960’s the larger Restoration body did an ill-advised Restructure. It led to the Independent Christian Churches and associate Churches of Christ fizzling away over time, a process that is continuing. Granted, it led to most factionists leaving the Disciples, which is why the typical Disciples congregation does not compete against its neighbors. Unfortunately, the Restructure did lead to some harmful effects, not least of which was giving idiots too much clout among denominational agencies that formerly were accountable to the congregations.

The Christian Connexion, which never merged with the other Restoration body/bodies, merged with Congregationalists in 1931. The Congregational Christian Churches merged with the Evangelical and Reformed church to form the United Church of Christ in 1957.

The vocal-only Churches of Christ that formalized their split from the Disciples in 1906 overall remain about the same as or worse than the Disciples were in the heyday of their factiousness. Many of their leaders and influencers get quite acrimonious if someone does not believe or do as they think everyone should. I am not talking about just saying `You/they are wrong’ – I am talking about real, genuine acrimony.

Now, what the Churches of Christ – vocal only, or affiliated with the Independent Christian Churches – generally assume is that the center of Christian life is Sunday worship. They may not acknowledge that, but if you hear them talk about what makes them better' than outside Christians, it is Sunday worship. They assume that Sunday worship is as important to God as it is to them, and so they assume that in the New Testament there is a code for how Jesus Christ wanted us to conduct Sunday worship assemblies, and that by careful study, they have found it. By finding it and implementing it, they think that they have found the way to be the best Christians’ or `only Christians’ and the ultimate way to get you to join their group.

When it is realized
a) that there is every indication that New Testament-era congregations did not do things the same,
b) there is no evidence of a uniform congregational pattern extant,
c) there is no evidence one was commanded for that time,
d) there is no evidence one was commanded for ever
it becomes apparent that their main tool for stealing members from other church groups has no merit.

 

[Darron_Steele]

Now, do not seek out one of their strongest supporters to tell that person there is no evidence to support the underlying assumption of an ancient congregational pattern. If you are determined to do so, make sure you have someone there who is not an adherent to be a witness. Some of them will be nice about it – others will turn into someone you did not imagine they could be. You never know which.

If there is still time, point out to your friend that they had to glean from the Scriptures this assumed pattern they think they have discovered. Now, why would they have to glean it? Why is there such scant attention to the details of congregational meetings? Answer: how congregations conducted their meetings was of little importance to the Lord.

Also, expect your friend to be trying to push you to join this group if she decides to become an adherent. Further, she may not consider you a Christian. How adherents think of outside Christians tends to vary:
a) outside our group there are no Christians,' b) outside our group there may be some isolated Christians,’
c) outside our group there are Christians, but unless they come to us, we will not acknowledge them,' d) of course there are Christians outside our group.’
People who think (a) (b) or (c) tend not to want to admit it except among themselves. Further, how people respond to those who think (b) (c) or (d) varies. If your friend thinks you might be a Christian, in some cases she better keep that view unexpressed.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I think I know a bit.

Back in late 1700’s and early 1800’s, there was a drive to end two things:
a) hostile relations between church groups, and
b) bondage to ecclesiastical authorities and their precepts.
The solution: `back to the Bible, unite on what we can agree on its teachings, and get rid of the fluff.’ It was the beginning of the Restoration Movement.

 

[Xavierlives]

I would ask your friend this question, at what point did Jesus give his authority to the bible?

Next point to ponder, at what point did Jesus give his authority to the Apostles.

Question 1 can’t be answered from the bible, because Jesus never did this. Jesus did in fact give his authority to the Apostles though, this can be seen in several places in the bible.

I would also see if your local parish offers a bible study, if they do get your friend involved at a bible study there. Hope this helps .

Isn’t Jesus the Word?

 

[Xavierlives]

If all authority comes from the Bible, where is it listed which letters and epistles are to be included in the Bible? If it is truly the only source of authority, it seems that information would be listed.

This is the second time I have seen you use this argument and to be perfectly honest, I’d like to know what your point is.

 

[excaliber]

Church of Christ thinks The Catholic Church should not use MUSIC…they have no problem with singing…they think music itself should not be used in worship.

How can we explain the Catholic Churches use of music?

 

[Zenas]

I think I know a bit.

Yes, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of the subject. I’m glad you recognize there are wide variations within the CoC concerning the salvation status of nonmembers. In my town there are 3 Churches of Christ. Two of them are very insular and won’t even have much to do with each other, much less people of other denominations. The other one is warm and welcoming to all. I have visited there many times and taken communion with them. They also are willing to participate in interdenominational efforts such as the crisis pregnancy center and the free clinic for the working poor. This probably sounds elitist on my part but the members of the warm and caring CoC are, on the whole, a lot better educated than the members of the other two churches. Also, the church is much larger.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is the second time I have seen you use this argument and to be perfectly honest, I’d like to know what your point is.

It’s quite simple really, I keep hearing it being espoused that the Bible is the only authority, or all that is needed. Why doesn’t the Bible state it’s own authority and that it’s the only source needed? It does not give a list of the Gospels, letters, or epistles that should be defined as part of the canon of the New Testament.

Let’s not make any mistakes here, the Bible is the inspired word of God. Why did God inspire it be written that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of scriptures? Why did God inspire it be written that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church instead of scriptures?

The Old Testament gives us an example of an authority needed to make the people understand scriptures.

Paul had to preach the Gospel to the Bereans, and then some believed, others searched the scriptures to see if what he said was true, then more believed. Yet, all did not believe after searching scriptures.

Philip had to preach Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch so that he understood the scriptures he read, and then he believed.

Jesus never wrote, or ordered anything scribed. He commanded them to go out and ‘preach’ the Gospel.

Christ Himself, corrected many for not understanding the scriptures.

Now we have thousands of denominations, with slight to great differences, all based on someone’s private interpretation and all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit give different truths? No. So how can we know which private interpretation is correct if it’s not correct through the Church Christ built?

All this boils down to, where does the Bible state it is the only authority to know God’s truth? How is one to know who is telling the real truth as guided by the Holy Spirit?

Christ started a Church, gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose, and the authority to forgive and retain sins. That Church had to define the canon of the New Testament and preserve the Bible so we have it today, but we’re told the Church is wrong and the Bible is the only authority. So far no one can produce the scriptures that support that teaching. So where does that teaching come from?