Church of Christ

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Not to steer this in a new direction, but my CofC friend gave me a tape that the CofC made on the history of the Church (In response to my letting him see Scott Hahn’s the Fourth Cup - which blew him away).

This tape is almost funny the way he uses the Bible to show where Jesus established one Church, and only one Church. The early Christians followed this church. But, with the Nicene Council and the Creed, the Papacy hi-jacking control, and other apostasies, the Church lost contact with Christ.

He used Bible Quotes to show that Jesus did establish a Church, but none of the quotes showed Jesus giving all power given to Him by God to the Apostles. You know, all the “Binding and Loosing”, the “Keys to the Kingdom”, the “Forgiveness”, and all those other minor details just seemed to be left out.

I’m going to give my friend a copy of the Nicene Creed, and ask to him to tell us what’s wrong in it, as the CofC seems to think (this is not the first article of their’s that has made this statement).

Also, it seems they forget the whole Bible Tradition (In Acts and numerous other epistles) where the Apostles held councils to determine the direction of the Church, you know that whole Gentile and Circumcision thing.

This tape is so glaring in its omissions, it’s laughable! I mean Seriously Laughable (is that an oxymoron?)!!!

Oh well, when I point this out to him, he’ll just give me that patient smile, sort of scratch his chin, and remind me how crooked our Popes were.

Thanks,

NotWorthy
 
Steve Green:
It is basically a mainline protestant demonination. Ya know, one of the 1000 or so that believe in the Bible, Bible only source crowd.
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In short, you don’t know or care anything about the subject. So why did you respond? Why is casual arrogance of this sort considered acceptable among devout Catholics who think they are defending the true Faith?

Edwin
 
Hi everyone,

I am a Catholic woman who just happens to be married (15 yrs.) to a member of the church of Christ–over the years I have attended his weekly services with him almost every week (in addition to my going to Mass). Here are my observations/opinions after many years: There is ABSOLUTELY no instrumental music allowed, but they do indeed have a sound system and power point presentations every week. They constantly refer to the “denominational world” of which they do not consider themselves a part. (but, Catholics are considered a part of the denominational world). They are offended by being referred to as protestants, and I get the distinct impression they consider Heaven to only inhabited by faithful cofC members, although I have met Catholics who felt the same way.

Over the years I have witnessed several virulent anti-Catholic sermons, but no more than any other religious group, the bottom line is they are right and everyone else is wrong and bound for hell. They have a great disdain for infant baptism, “sprinkling”, the Pope and refuse to acknowledge the Blessed Mother, even when they are covering (in detail) scripture relating the angel coming to Mary to announce she will conceive by the power of the Holy Spirit! They also enjoy relating the “Brothers of Jesus” stuff to refute Mary’s perpetual virginity from time to time. But they don’t focus on anti-Catholic rhetoric very regularly, it just comes up from time to time.

A favorite theme at my husband’s church comes around the holidays of Christmas and Easter during which time the preacher will almost always discuss the history of these holidays (Catholic/Pagan relationship) and how they should not be celebrated in connection with any worship by the church, due to their being man-made days of worship. Of course, you can just imagine their views on the saints and saint days!

I always considered the church of Christ to be a small, somewhat backward denomination centered around the U.S. South, and wonder if the church in Australia is somehow different or not related? My husband and in-laws are good people, as are many of the folks they attend church with, but their church views are in my view narrow-minded and somewhat ignorant of history in general. Please pray that the day comes when I convert my husband! By the way our daughter is baptised Catholic and will attend Catholic school, she goes to church with me mostly.

Anyway that’s my two cents 🙂
 
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NotWorthy:
I’m going to give my friend a copy of the Nicene Creed, and ask to him to tell us what’s wrong in it, as the CofC seems to think (this is not the first article of their’s that has made this statement).
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Your first problem will be that they will reject it because it is a CREED.:bigyikes: Which is sort of like using profanity in Church of Christ circles. One of their founding mottos is “No creed but the Bible!!!” :nope: Or, as I told in Sunday school as a teenager:

*Any creed which is shorter than the Bible is antibiblical.:nope: *

*Any creed which is longer than the bible is antibiblical.:nope: *

*Any creed which is different from the Bible is antibiblical.:nope: *

Of course this little saying constitutes a creed which is notable for bing both shorter than and different from the Bible. :hmmm:

The Campellite movement in general was once thought to deny the Trinity because many of their congregations refused to use the word Trinity. Ask them if there was one God–they would cite** Bible verses**. Ask them if the Father is God-they would cite Bible verses. Ask them if Jesus was God–Bible verses. Is the Holy Spirit God? Bible verses. Is there one God in three persons? That’s not Scripture so we cannot affirm that extra-Biblical statement. BUT we believe that the Father is God because (see Bible verse), the Son is God (see Bible verse), the Holy Spirit is God (see Bible verse) and there is only One God (see Bible verse). But do you believe in the Trinity? That is an extra-biblical word, so we will not use it. But We believe in One God (Bible verse) . . . . .

Conversations about theology were laborious to say the least.
 
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flameburns623:
Your first problem will be that they will reject it because it is a CREED.:bigyikes: Which is sort of like using profanity in Church of Christ circles. One of their founding mottos is “No creed but the Bible!!!” :nope:
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Do you want to get that “Are you Crazy” Look? Ask them why they think the Bible is the end-all be-all of Religious Teaching. It is so accepted in their faith, they can’t believe it’s not true.

NotWorthy
 
Let’s notice please that Evanescense is attending an Australian “church of Christ” and the rest of us are presumably American. I beleive there are differerences between the two. I have already noted that there are at least seven different denominations here in the U.S. all using the same name “church of Christ” The one thing they do have in common is strict congregational organisation, and the name.

If Evan says that the Aussie csofC uses musical instruments, we really have no reason to doubt his word. I am sure they do use instruments. I have read (in a book, not online) that the Aussie and UK churches of Christ are much more closely identified with the American Disciples of Christ and Independent Christian churches, which definately use muscial instruments.

I’m kind of thinking that unless there are some of us who know and understand the Australian churches of Christ it might be appropriate if we witheld further comments.
 
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NotWorthy:
Not to steer this in a new direction, but my CofC friend gave me a tape that the CofC made on the history of the Church (In response to my letting him see Scott Hahn’s the Fourth Cup - which blew him away).

This tape is almost funny the way he uses the Bible to show where Jesus established one Church, and only one Church. The early Christians followed this church. But, with the Nicene Council and the Creed, the Papacy hi-jacking control, and other apostasies, the Church lost contact with Christ.

He used Bible Quotes to show that Jesus did establish a Church, but none of the quotes showed Jesus giving all power given to Him by God to the Apostles. You know, all the “Binding and Loosing”, the “Keys to the Kingdom”, the “Forgiveness”, and all those other minor details just seemed to be left out.

I’m going to give my friend a copy of the Nicene Creed, and ask to him to tell us what’s wrong in it, as the CofC seems to think (this is not the first article of their’s that has made this statement).

Also, it seems they forget the whole Bible Tradition (In Acts and numerous other epistles) where the Apostles held councils to determine the direction of the Church, you know that whole Gentile and Circumcision thing.

This tape is so glaring in its omissions, it’s laughable! I mean Seriously Laughable (is that an oxymoron?)!!!

Oh well, when I point this out to him, he’ll just give me that patient smile, sort of scratch his chin, and remind me how crooked our Popes were.

Thanks,

NotWorthy
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i think they gave us that same tape when we started going. they didn’t like my mom’s baptist upbringing. i remember watching it and thinking “what a bunch of fanatics” the preacher would come over and have dinner with us too. he was a cool old guy. i don’t think he ever uttered anything anti-catholic on the pulpit, but i wouldn’t really remember if he did. it’s been YEARS.
 
Thanks, A.H.F. for the links; I really enjoyed them–maybe I can get my husband to read them, too. 😃

I think anyone who is a life-long Catholic (“cradle”) can learn alot from the people who have converted to Catholicism later in life, I sure have!

God Bless you,

Lorettogirl
 
I grew up in the Church of Christ, where my Dad served as a deacon for many years.

First of all, it is important to repeat that since there is no central authority, each congregation may differ on certain points of doctrine, so it is impossible to make general statements about a particular congregation just because it has the name “Church of Christ” over its door. For instance, the church I grew up in split over the question of whether tobacco use was sinful, and about a third of the members moved down the road to another congregation. So now, in our small town, there is the Church of Christ and the non-smoking Church of Christ, and each one believes the other is going to Hell. (I’m not sure which of the scriptural references to tobacco they use, respectively – the ones in the Book of Hezekiah or those in the second chapter of Jude. 🙂 ) Some allow instrumental music, but most do not.

The question of who is going to Hell is very important to them. A large percentage of the sermons I endured as a kid dwelt on why the Baptists were lost, or why the Methodists were lost, and so on and so on. They were vehemently anti-Catholic, but no more so than they were anti-Baptist. Or anti-Pentacostal. Or anti-One Cuppers, who go by the name Church of Christ.

Since they stress the importance of the Great Commission, they tend to be militant in their approach to evangelism, and so they can be very confrontational toward members of “the denominations.”

Since they frown on “fellowshipping” or even doing business with non-Christians (meaning non-members of the CoC), I think it is fair to say that even the mainstream churches of Christ are cult-like. In some small towns, the local Church of Christ can exert considerable political power, and you shouldn’t even bother applying for a job as a public school teacher if they control the school board.

They also believe that women should submit to their husbands in all matters and “keep silent in the church.”

Check out the website ex-churchofchrist.com for more info.
 
Sebaldus, do you actually post on the ExcofC website?

I go there and mostly lurk. It seems to me that the apple hasn’t fallen very far from the tree on that site. Most of the people there aside from an Atheist or two have gone to equally fundamentalist, bible worshipping churches. The only Catholic I have seen is called Nurse or something like that.

That wouldn’t be you would it?
 
There are different branches of Church of Christ. I believe the majority are evangelical. However, there is a Church of Christ that is ultra-fundamentalist. They believe that they are the original church founded by Jesus. Afterall, the name of their church is “Church of Christ,” This sounds silly, but someone nominally affiliated with them accosted me in a bar about a year ago. I was reading some theology and he asked what I was reading and what denomination I was. I told him I’m Catholic and I could see his fangs and claws pop out. I told him he would be a much better witness for his church if he wasn’t so drunk he was about to fall off his bar stool.

This particular branch is very sectarian. Basically, if you’re not a member of their church then you’re going to hell, period. In heaven we’ll have to be very quiet around them because they’ll think they’re the only ones there.

Another unusual characteristic they have is the belief that musical instruments are forbidden. They surmise this because there is no mention of musical instruments in the New Testament. Ironically, they use lightbulbs in their churches and drive cars.
 
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everlastingthur:
However, there is a Church of Christ that is ultra-fundamentalist. They believe that they are the original church founded by Jesus. Afterall, the name of their church is “Church of Christ,”

This particular branch is very sectarian. Basically, if you’re not a member of their church then you’re going to hell, period. In heaven we’ll have to be very quiet around them because they’ll think they’re the only ones there.

Another unusual characteristic they have is the belief that musical instruments are forbidden. They surmise this because there is no mention of musical instruments in the New Testament. Ironically, they use lightbulbs in their churches and drive cars.
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Yep, you’ve just described the Church of Christ that most of us have come to know and “love”, except maybe Evanescence “down under”. Her’s seems to be the evangelical group.

Oh yeah, regarding the lightbulbs and such, don’t forget the powerpoints!!!

NotWorthy
 
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boppysbud:
Sebaldus, do you actually post on the ExcofC website?

The only Catholic I have seen is called Nurse or something like that.

That wouldn’t be you would it?
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Nope. I use “XlentTheophilus” on the board that is restricted to former members. I haven’t really looked at the second board much, where the current members post to point out the errors of those who have escaped and try to reconvert them. Done been there, heard that!

I think I mentioned once that I am Catholic, but I mainly just try to exert subtle influence. One lady, whose posts I generally like reading, said she actually ordered a copy of “Where We Got The Bible,” by Henry Graham after I reccommended it, so I don’t feel like I’m totally wasting my time there.

Speaking of that book, that was what finally, once and for all, removed any residual doubt whatsoever that lingered in my brain due to my CoC upbringing. Come to think of it, I heard about it through Catholic Answers. Thanks, Karl Keating!
 
**Sebaldus said “Where We Got The Bible,” by Henry Graham … Speaking of that book, that was what finally, once and for all, removed any residual doubt whatsoever that lingered in my brain due to my CoC upbringing

**Sebaldus - my background is not in the CoC, but in something else that is vehemently anti-Catholic. That book - “Where We Got The Bible”, was the first major “two by four between the eyes” that I received. (remember the question - how do you get the attention of a stubborn mule?) I read it almost on a self-dare, thinking “this can’t be true”. After that, nothing was the same. A complete wake-up-call. I can’t recommend it highly enough to anyone who considers themselves to be a “Bible Christian”.

I have several extra copies now, in the hope of giving them out to people who may be interested. Nice to see somebody else that it had a major effect on; nice that the lady on the forum ordered it.
 
Regarding the Boston/International Churches of Christ
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flameburns623:
Please bear in mind that this group is NOT typical of the Churches of Christ generally. ICC has suffered some scandals and a leadership crises in recent years, and is less prominent than it was even ten years ago, but some of the truly negative experiences that people have had with the Churches of Christ have actually occurred within the ICC and not the older Churches of Christ denomination.
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Really, what has happened with them recently? Between 1994 and 2000 I had numerous run-ins with representatives of the Boston, Phoenix, and Chicago branches trying to recruit me - they really zero in on people who are alone or new in town. It was these guys who unwittingly got me to be a stronger Catholic, by causing me to read good Catholic apologetics. The Phoenix group was especially funny because at some point when I was disagreeing with a lot of their claims in their Bible Study, they determined I was “hard-hearted” and “unteachable”. The catch phrases from their Bible Study were “Christian = Disciple = Saved”, and “What do disciples do? They make more disciples!”

I had heard some negative things about high-pressure tactics, coercive "discipling, etc, much of which was geared toward guilting you into giving more money to the church. And then the leaders led opulent lifestyles. So I got the impression of this church as sort of a combination of cult and pyramid scam. But it’s been a while since I’ve run into any of them. I remember one of their patterns was to say they were from “a local Church”, and if you asked which one they would be evasive, perhaps because they were embarassed to give the name?
 
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Evanescence:
I did ask also about the instruments, they allow that too I was just playing on the piano there just a while ago! 😃 the usual evanescence and my own made up stuff

Evanescence
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As a few of us have said there are different churches that call themselves Church of Christ. I believe most are evangelical and allow musical instruments. However, there is at least one division that is strictly fundamentalist and does not allow musical instruments. Don’t feel dumb, though. I offended a friend who was raised in the Church of Christ. Her parents were missionaries in South Africa. I asked her why they don’t allow music and got a long lecture on what division broke off from whom etc. It’s not uncommon for churches to share the same name yet teach differently ie Baptists. Baptists fall within the entire range of worship styles. Some are fundamentalist, others evangelical.
 
I have a CofC friend whose active evanglization converts me from atheism to Catholicism.(:confused: )
I hope one day he’ll convert to Catholicism too.
 
Bobby Jim:
Regarding the Boston/International Churches of Christ

Really, what has happened with them recently? Between 1994 and 2000 I had numerous run-ins with representatives of the Boston, Phoenix, and Chicago branches trying to recruit me - they really zero in on people who are alone or new in town. It was these guys who unwittingly got me to be a stronger Catholic, by causing me to read good Catholic apologetics. The Phoenix group was especially funny because at some point when I was disagreeing with a lot of their claims in their Bible Study, they determined I was “hard-hearted” and “unteachable”. The catch phrases from their Bible Study were “Christian = Disciple = Saved”, and “What do disciples do? They make more disciples!”

I had heard some negative things about high-pressure tactics, coercive "discipling, etc, much of which was geared toward guilting you into giving more money to the church. And then the leaders led opulent lifestyles. So I got the impression of this church as sort of a combination of cult and pyramid scam. But it’s been a while since I’ve run into any of them. I remember one of their patterns was to say they were from “a local Church”, and if you asked which one they would be evasive, perhaps because they were embarassed to give the name?
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The International Churches of Christ WERE coercive and abusive. They were NOT, primarily, guilty of exploiting their members for monetary gain. Mostly they would create these strict ‘shepherding’ networks in which leaders within small groups had almost absolute control over the lower-ranking members. The ‘shepherds’ would compel embarrassing public confessions, impose strict judgements for disobedience, maintain strict oversight of even very private aspects of members lives, etcetera. There was a history of making people do things to teach them ‘humility’ such as mowing the leader’s grass, washing cars, cleaning ouses, etcetera. To it’s credit, when these sorts of ‘penances’ came to light, the ICOC disavowed them and censured those leaders guilty of such behavior. However, the group remained very very authoritarian until the last three or four years when some in the very top leadership came under scrutiny. I DON’T know the details, but know that since the shake-up, the ICOC has lost much of it’s authoritarian and exclusivistic character and is beginning to work more closely with other branches of the Churches of Christ.

They weren’t being ‘vague’ in calling themselves a ‘Local Church’–that was how they organized themselves. As one single congregation per every large geographic locality. Also–they REFUSE to call themselves anything but Christians, they refuse to call their denomination or congregation anything but a ‘Christian Church’–so they might have sounded evasive, but this is only because their ecclesiology teaches them that there is only ONE Christian church in any given geographical area.

It is rather as if the only Catholic church in any area were a single Cathedral, and all Catholics attended that one building every Sunday morning. Many other services, bible studies, etcetera, would take place throughout the week, in people’s homes, in small groups of not more than 20 people. But everyone would consider themselves primarily only members of one single congregation, the large super-service held at the Cathedral once a week. Of course–I doubt if any ICOC congregation ever attained to the usual size of most Roman Catholic dioceses–but they usually cover roughly the same amount of geographic territory.
 
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