Church of England lifts ban on gay bishops

[guanophore]

Church of England lifts ban on gay bishops.

that is the topic,what i cannot get my head around is this.if you are gay,you are gay.if you are a ex-gay then thats another thing.

you cannot hid behind this title of being gay,but not doing the actions.its madness in my view.

drunk…ex- drunk.

druggie…ex-druggie.

smoker…ex-smoker.

but this is saying
gay…gay.

or is this just me?

It is more that your position is too simplistic. You will find that most addicts realize that their addiction remains, whether they achieve and maintin sobriety, or not. Many do not continue to identify themselves as “recovering addict”, but they find, often through painful experience,that if they go back to using, their last state is much worse than their first.

Those who have conquered the addiction to nicotine in it’s various forms do not hold out the possibility of ever going back, knowing that they will again fall into the addiction. Meaning that there is something in them that responds this way to the chemical, so that becoming an “ex smoker” is more than just changing a behavior, but an entire mindset.

So also with same sex attraction. A person may stop living a gay lifestyle, or cease to be involved in homosexual activity, but they may continue to suffer the rest of their lives with same sex attraction. The fact is that there is much more to sexual orientation than just “behavior”.

It is not helpful for people who are homosexually oriented to pretend to themselves and others that they do not have this condition. they can make a decision not to act on their attractions, but that will not necessarily make them go away.

 

[twoshoes]

latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-church-of-england-lifts-ban-on-gay-bishops-20130104,0,2806956.story

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment: And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly. And reducing the cities of the Sodomites and of the Gomorrhites into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example to those that should after act wickedly, And delivered just Lot, oppressed by the injustice and lewd conversation of the wicked: For in sight and hearing he was just, dwelling among them who from day to day vexed the just soul with unjust works. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly from temptation, but to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be tormented: And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise government: audacious, self willed, they fear not to bring in sects, blaspheming. Whereas angels, who are greater in strength and power, bring not against themselves a railing judgment. But these men, as irrational beasts, naturally tending to the snare and to destruction, blaspheming those things which they know not, shall perish in their corruption: Receiving the reward of their injustice, counting for a pleasure the delights of a day: stains and spots, sporting themselves to excess, rioting in their feasts with you: Having eyes full of adultery and of sin that ceaseth not: alluring unstable souls: having their heart exercised with covetousness: children of malediction. Leaving the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor who loved the wages of iniquity, But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which, speaking with man’s voice, forbade the folly of the prophet. These are fountains without water and clouds tossed with whirlwinds, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved. For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error: Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice than, after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit; and: The sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(2 Peter 2:4-22 DRB)

This is very sad. If I was in your shoes I would feel lost, and disconnected from our Lord, not knowing what direction to take. Our door is always open to you. My prayers go out to you , we all know what missguided leadership can do.

 

[Indifferently]

This is very sad. If I was in your shoes I would feel lost, and disconnected from our Lord, not knowing what direction to take. Our door is always open to you. My prayers go out to you , we all know what missguided leadership can do.

Thank you.

I suspect this has a lot to do with England’s present political climate. I hope that those of us willing to ride out the storm will be rewarded.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you.

I suspect this has a lot to do with England’s present political climate. I hope that those of us willing to ride out the storm will be rewarded.

Its everywhere though, its a spiritual battle and to ride out the storm requires an unwavering conviction when surrounded by insanity. and I assure you unity of the Church will most definitely help strengthen everyone.

 

[Indifferently]

Its everywhere though, its a spiritual battle and to ride out the storm requires an unwavering conviction when surrounded by insanity. and I assure you unity of the Church will most definitely help strengthen everyone.

There is also another story behind this, having everything to do with a general loss of national self-confidence. This is in the forefront of my mind when I think of the present state of the English Church and the English Protestant religion. These things cannot be divorced from one another - they are one and the same. Countries in decline often appeal to foreign powers for assistance. The flight of Christian conservatives to Rome is just another example of that.

England’s revival, if it is to be truly England, lies in the re emergence of authentic Burkean conservatism, itself nothing more than a subset of our unique reformed version of the Christian faith.

Alas, darkness is falling.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand why this is a big deal for Catholics who accept niether Anglican orders or apostolic succsesion.

Is this just an example or derision of homosexuals in general?

It is strictly against the Teachings of Jesus to deride anyone, including someone living in sin.

It is a big deal for Catholics because we are observing the gradual skid of Protestants into doctrinal compromise. This is the sad consequence of rending the seamless garment of the One Faith.

 

[guanophore]

btw…you are totaly wrong on the Apostolic Succession.

Apostolic Succession

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).

source. catholic.com/tracts/apostolic-succession

No, Andrewstx is right on in the reference to Apostolic Succession. The Anglican Church lost this during the Reformation.

 

[guanophore]

So you think that it’s irresistible human nature for people to engage in sexual acts? That’s an awfully strange position for a Catholic to take, I have to say. I am sure there are many hypocritical priests (both Anglican and Catholic) who secretly engage in sinful relationships, but there are also many faithful priests (both Anglican and Catholic) who are successfully able to withstand such temptations.

No, that is not what is being said at all!

God gives us all sufficient grace to walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

However, one of the principles of walking by the Spirit is to avoid putting oneself in “near occasion of sin”. That phrase describes putting oneself in a position where one is likely to be tempted into sin, and lacking the supports to avoid falling into sin.

Two persons, whether they are hetero or homosexual, if they are attracted to one another, place themselves in a near occasion of sin if they live together as though they were a couple. Though the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

 

[Porknpie]

It is permissible to have mental reservations about doctrine. If one is willing to embrace the faith, while praying “Lord, help my unbelief” then one may grow in faith. These issues have divided the Angican communion from the Bishop of Rome for 500 years, and will not be resolve overnight.

But the lack of communion with the visible sign of unity appointed by Christ in the successor of Cephas has continued to bear the fruit of separation and division, and gradual slide in to sin and error. At some point, the increasing pace through the gates of hell may become alarming enough for the victims, though still in doubt, to jump into the Ark.

Guan, are you distinguishing between one having reservations and one not believing / rejecting doctrines?

 

[guanophore]

How can his question be rhetorical in any way? He asked specifically *which * church held the “truth.” I answered him, specifically: The Catholic Church. I said that most any secular history book would tell him that. How can that possibly be construed as a rhetorical question?

Porknpie is double Catholic. The question was posed rhetorically in the context that the entire issue boils down to one of authority.

 

[guanophore]

This is very sad. If I was in your shoes I would feel lost, and disconnected from our Lord, not knowing what direction to take. Our door is always open to you. My prayers go out to you , we all know what missguided leadership can do.

It is very sad, but Holly is just quoting the epistle of Peter. Not that I would discourage you for praying.

 

[guanophore]

Guan, are you distinguishing between one having reservations and one not believing / rejecting doctrines?

Yes!

One can pray “Lord! Help my unbelief!”

 

[Porknpie]

Yes!

One can pray “Lord! Help my unbelief!”

The Lord did so with Pie…helping her with Marian doctrine, purgatory and primacy of the Pope.

She loves Mary so much now that she paints her as evident in my avatar. I should say she has a love of the Pope too…

 

[Indifferently]

No, Andrewstx is right on in the reference to Apostolic Succession. The Anglican Church lost this during the Reformation.

Not true sorry. Even if it were then the Utrecht bishops would have reinstated it.

 

[Indifferently]

Then why is Apostolicae Curae not ex cathedra?

 

[pablope]

Not true sorry. Even if it were then the Utrecht bishops would have reinstated it.

Hmmm…question…where did the Utrecht bishops get their authority from to reinstate (restore?) the Apostolic lineage? Did they do this on their own? Did a pope authorize them?

 

[GKC]

Hmmm…question…where did the Utrecht bishops get their authority from to reinstate (restore?) the Apostolic lineage? Did they do this on their own? Did a pope authorize them?

That would not be necessary. Any validly consecrated bishop, even if schismatic, heretical or excommunicated, conveys valid orders, assuming other issues are equally valid (form, intent, etc). See Ott, FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, p. 458.

What would be lacking, in the RC view, would be licitity.

GKC

 

[GKC]

A point I emphasize, myself.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Then why is Apostolicae Curae not ex cathedra?

It would not need to be. The degrees of theological certainty are on a scale, but ex cathedra is not the only one that is de fide.

GKC

 

[rfournier103]

The Monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, per the Act of Supremacy of 1559. This position is titular and the effective authority is nil.

Added: IOW, ltwin is correct, adding that the Parliamentarian role is significant.

GKC

Could you imagine of the Congress of the United States ran a church? Thank God for the pope!