Church of England

[Gunner]

## None of which - even if it were all true, which is not the case - justifies Catholic mud-slinging against Anglicans. In fact, this sort of behaviour is exactly the sort of thing that makes me long for the C of E: it doesn’t spend its time raking up their pasts against other Christian bodies, and doesn’t seem to consider that its good qualities depend upon insisting on the bad qualities of others.

There is something devilish - that is precisely the word - in playing the devil’s role as an accuser of other Christians. Mercifully for the C of E, this is a vice which she has shown comparatively little desire to indulge, in recent decades - I thought the CC had also give up this destructive and un-Christian habit. It seems not.

Catholics merely weaken the Church when they dig up scandals among Christians. Quite apart from the foolishness of such a mode of conduct. ##

The Cof E is a heretical Church. This is simply truth. I tell you the truth and you call me your enemy. (Galatians) If you read all I said, you would note how I do not hold its current members as culpable, they know no better after 500 years of false teaching/propaganda/prejudice.

Charity is a word often used wrongly, especially by people who do not like to hear the truth. True Charity is in acting in a way to assist that people follow the will of God and fulfill their life’s potential in Christ, for Christ and reign with him in Heaven. Charity partly involves as part of its function, admonishing sinners and instructing the ignorant.

To get to heaven, is much more difficult for those who do not have access to the supernatual graces only available in the sacraments of the Catholic Church, and its firm God given authority to teach “ALL” the truth (This includes - Divorce, Contraception, Abortion, Non-Obedience to Church, Sodomy) being grave sins.

We must all as Catholics, as necessary with compassion warn our neighbours of their errors and the truth of the Catholic faith (non - Catholics- Ezekiel 3.16) or we ourselves become guilty, as we have the truth and must share it, regardless of the cost to ourselves.

 

[Led_Zeppelin75]

Both of my parents were raised Anglican. My mother converted to Catholicism shortly before she married. My father considers himself an atheist, he allowed me to be brought up Catholic. Both of them told me exactly how the Church of England is very messed up. The Catholic Church will never appoint an openly gay man who’s had homosexual partners as a bishop.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gunner:

The Cof E is a heretical Church. This is simply truth. I tell you the truth and you call me your enemy. (Galatians) If you read all I said, you would note how I do not hold its current members as culpable, they know no better after 500 years of false teaching/propaganda/prejudice.

Yes, I know Galatians 4.6 - Jack Chick is fond of it. It’s the kind of verse that is very handy if one wants to look godly while being ungodly (which all of us are anyway .​

And no, I’m not calling you my enemy - simply pointing out that accusation of other Christians is not something we are wise to do, because the Bible shows it as being satan’s job (and sin).

I can’t see any attraction in accusing other Churches of their faults, real or supposed. It’s not our job; we don’t know all the facts; and we have more than enough to repent of ourselves. How can we ask for mercy when we deny it to others ? “Fraternal correction” is all very well - but human beings are very skilful at sanctifying their baser instincts so that they can be unChristian to others.

Charity is a word often used wrongly, especially by people who do not like to hear the truth. True Charity is in acting in a way to assist that people follow the will of God and fulfill their life’s potential in Christ, for Christ and reign with him in Heaven. Charity partly involves as part of its function, admonishing sinners and instructing the ignorant.

To get to heaven, is much more difficult for those who do not have access to the supernatual graces only available in the sacraments of the Catholic Church, and its firm God given authority to teach “ALL” the truth (This includes - Divorce, Contraception, Abortion, Non-Obedience to Church, Sodomy) being grave sins.

God’s grace is by no means confined to the CC, however - the opposite idea was condemned as an error in 1713. Anglicans are as sure of God’s grace and mercy as any of us Catholics. Besides, some of their sacramental life is certainly valid even by RC standards.​

We must all as Catholics, as necessary with compassion warn our neighbours of their errors and the truth of the Catholic faith (non - Catholics- Ezekiel 3.16) or we ourselves become guilty, as we have the truth and must share it, regardless of the cost to ourselves.

 

[Maccabees]

We don’t need to knock the Church of England to point out that it is a dead faith. THe fact that 90 percent of Anglicans are not practicing their faith point to that problem . Their own people are telling them your church is not relevant on any given Sunday Catholics and Muslims practice their faith in greater numbers than Anglicans despite the fact the country is close to 90 percent Anglican that is very telling.

 

[Franze]

Although someone is converting to the Catholic Church from anglicanism, is very sad what is happening in England, the churches have to be stronger, because a scandle for all christians this bad comportament of the Anglican Church with divorced and gay priests and bishops, greetings

 

[puzzleannie]

Led Zeppelin75:

The Church of England is a disgrace to both Christianity and England. I would be ashamed if the Church appointed an openly homosexual man who’s had homosexual relations to the role of a bishop. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

the Catholic church has done and is doing this. even bishops have been accused and found guilty of homosexual abuse of children and teens, and there is no concerted effort to remove them from their posts until it becomes a financial or PR problem. there is no concerted, whole hearted effort to remove active homosexuals, even those who have been arrested for public indecency because of their activities, from the priesthood, from seminary faculties, from governance positions or from the ranks of bishops. Catholics better be very careful of slinging accusations.

The ALPHA program introduced by Nicky Gumble a charistmatic Anglican clergyman, is having a real evangelizing and renewing effect on the Church in England and elsewhere, check it out.

 

[Led_Zeppelin75]

Maccabees:

…the country is close to 90 percent Anglican that is very telling.

Actually the percent of the UK that calles themselves Christian is 72%. In terms of actually belong to a church, that percentage is 14% of the country. 40% of all the UK’s citizens do not believe in God, 12% Atheist, 28% Agnostic, that questions the validity of the first number. So that means there are 58% call themselves “Christian” but either don’t belong to a church, or are really atheist or agnostic. Those who “call” themselves Anglican are 25% of the country, not somewhere near 90%. The percentage of Catholics is 6%.

I’m not sure if all these are exactly right. Someone else might give you a whole dirrfent set of numbers and no one will know who is right. But they’re close. Where else should we put the blame but on the C of E for such religious decline?

 

[Led_Zeppelin75]

puzzleannie:

the Catholic church has done and is doing this. even bishops have been accused and found guilty of homosexual abuse of children and teens, and there is no concerted effort to remove them from their posts until it becomes a financial or PR problem. there is no concerted, whole hearted effort to remove active homosexuals, even those who have been arrested for public indecency because of their activities, from the priesthood, from seminary faculties, from governance positions or from the ranks of bishops. Catholics better be very careful of slinging accusations.

The ALPHA program introduced by Nicky Gumble a charistmatic Anglican clergyman, is having a real evangelizing and renewing effect on the Church in England and elsewhere, check it out.

It’s still not anything close to the problems the C of E already has.

 

[Church_Militant]

## A Church with alcoholic priests and bishops who hush up paedophilia (who then presume to lecture the rest of us on sexual ethics) - such as the one we are in - is not exactly in a position to lecture the Church of England on its deformities, real or supposed.

Mud-slinging may be a Catholic practice, but there is nothing Christian about it. They may be something Hellish about it, but nothing Christian. ##

As the philosopher said; “Human, all too human”. Let’s get it all in perspective, huh. Sure there are wrong things that have happened w/in the church, BUT, there are some 47000 priests out there , & most of them are doing it right 24/7/366. The stats say that the rate of abuse & cover up is MUCH higher among educators. Agreed… we should clean up out own house & and we are… but we aren’t the only ones and the church is handling the situation.

As for the Washington Post…they love a chance to jump up on any anti Catholic bandwagon that just happens to roll by. They know that any bad news sells papers; good news gets a deaf ear. I wouldn’t wrap old fish w/ that rag.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Maccabees:

We don’t need to knock the Church of England to point out that it is a dead faith. THe fact that 90 percent of Anglicans are not practicing their faith point to that problem . Their own people are telling them your church is not relevant on any given Sunday Catholics and Muslims practice their faith in greater numbers than Anglicans despite the fact the country is close to 90 percent Anglican that is very telling.

And in the Pope’s own diocese, Mass attendance is at an all time high of 10%.​

In France, the national average is 6 %

And so it goes on.

Do these stats mean that RCism “is a dead faith” ? ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Led Zeppelin75:

Actually the percent of the UK that calles themselves Christian is 72%. In terms of actually belong to a church, that percentage is 14% of the country. 40% of all the UK’s citizens do not believe in God, 12% Atheist, 28% Agnostic, that questions the validity of the first number. So that means there are 58% call themselves “Christian” but either don’t belong to a church, or are really atheist or agnostic. Those who “call” themselves Anglican are 25% of the country, not somewhere near 90%. The percentage of Catholics is 6%.

I’m not sure if all these are exactly right. Someone else might give you a whole dirrfent set of numbers and no one will know who is right. But they’re close. Where else should we put the blame but on the C of E for such religious decline?

Then let’s play fair - odd idea, I know, fairness is - and say exactly the same about the Pope in his diocese (a far smaller unit than a whole country of tens of millions of people) or about the French Church. So, obviously “such religious decline” is their fault, and the Pope’s fault.​

In Scotland one in seven of the population is a Catholic, which is a decline - there are about 110,000 fewer Catholics in in Scotland than in 1964, when there were 850,000. Receptions of others into the CC are not counted separately from Baptisms.

In England and Wales, the Catholic population is also in slow but steady decline, at about 7%, or 4.5 million. Of these, about one-quarter - let’s be generous, and say 2% of the population of England & Wales - go to Mass. Ther are about 5,000 receptions a year - 15,000 50 years ago, and about 3000 leaving 50 years ago.

This number-crunching rather reminds me of Protestant complaints that Catholics don’t go to Church, or the like - that’s because they aren’t looking outside the USA; they don’t see that the Churches are healthy or unhealthy in different countries and in different ways. Rather like some Catholics.

BTW: Catholic self-righteousness is a suffocating atmosphere to breathe. We are not entitled to it. It’s an excellent way of weakening the witness of the Church to Christ. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Church Militant:

As the philosopher said; “Human, all too human”. Let’s get it all in perspective, huh. Sure there are wrong things that have happened w/in the church, BUT, there are some 47000 priests out there , & most of them are doing it right 24/7/366. The stats say that the rate of abuse & cover up is MUCH higher among educators. Agreed… we should clean up out own house & and we are… but we aren’t the only ones and the church is handling the situation.

As for the Washington Post…they love a chance to jump up on any anti Catholic bandwagon that just happens to roll by. They know that any bad news sells papers; good news gets a deaf ear. I wouldn’t wrap old fish w/ that rag.

A quoter of Nietsche ? Very amusing. ​

Why not ask the OP what you suggest to me - “Let’s get it all in perspective”. It’s fun, flinging mud at the Church of England, isn’t it ? Maybe - but it’s not so fun to be reminded that the CC has plenty wrong with her too. Getting a dose of the medicine one deals to others never is fun.

I’m sorry, but when I see the C of E being dumped on, and am in a position to reply, I fully intend to. Catholics cannot be allowed to do to others what they (quite rightly) don’t like having done to them.

Or is it fine and dandy to pick on the troubles of the C of E, but not to point out that we are no position to judge ? It’s hilarious how people complain about anti-Catholicism, but can’t see that they are being anti-Anglican, or whatever.

We do need to “get things in perspective”, very definitely; but that must not be coded language for “bashing other Christians”. I only wish there were an Anglican on the thread, who would be able to give a far better account of why it is folly for RCs to attack Anglicans than I could

I don’t see the relevance of the WP, BTW - FWIW, the reliability of what is said is more important than who says it: surely ? ##

 

[Maccabees]

Led Zeppelin75:

Actually the percent of the UK that calles themselves Christian is 72%. In terms of actually belong to a church, that percentage is 14% of the country. 40% of all the UK’s citizens do not believe in God, 12% Atheist, 28% Agnostic, that questions the validity of the first number. So that means there are 58% call themselves “Christian” but either don’t belong to a church, or are really atheist or agnostic. Those who “call” themselves Anglican are 25% of the country, not somewhere near 90%. The percentage of Catholics is 6%.

I’m not sure if all these are exactly right. Someone else might give you a whole dirrfent set of numbers and no one will know who is right. But they’re close. Where else should we put the blamce but on the C of E for such religious decline?

I double checked my some stats your check out pretty close

 

[Maccabees]

Ok the Church of England has 90 percent of Christians in 1960 a lot has happened since then half of those members no longer practice in any way and the church has around 75 percent of Christians right now with the catholic church being AROUND 5 PERCENT but on any given sunday the catholic church has more members in attendance than the church of England despite the much larger memebers who claim some sort of affiliation with the Anglican church. The point is the catholic church is in better shape than the Church of England in its own country. However I will acknowledge both are loosing members dramatically and both religions are in decline. My point is that considering the heads up Anglicanism has over the catholic church considering most people there were born into the faith and catholics for 500 years have been a small minority and a largely persecuted one at that.

Catholcism has major problem no doubt in Europe as all other major denoms are experiencing . Perhaps I was unfair to declare Anglicanism a dead faith as we appear to be on CPR as well but it is fair to say the church of England has one foot in the coffin and we are on life support it is not a pretty picture. THe stats I am getting for rome is close to 20 percent practicing not 10 and France is just a mess I am getting 8 percent. Whatever the disputed numbers we can agree christianity in Europe is in major problem whether it be cathoilicism or Protestantism. Isalm is fast taking over as the relgion most people adhere to on a weekend in Paris more people attend mosque on Firday than christians attend church on Sunday. My criticism of Anglicanism stands as its moral and theological uncertainty has led to a loss of faith. The catholic church has her problems as well and its cracks are showing we a close behind in the Church of Engltand as being an after thought. But I do tend to give them a pass there as we still have more of our 5 percent going to church than Anglcianism has its 75 percent going to church on a Sunday so that is a glimmer of hope that the church will still be a minority presence desptie the decline in Christianity in Europe. But that does kill any hope of Cathoilicism establishing a significant presence there we are just a minority status that is stagnant and on a slow decline.
I will agree that Isalm will take over as the Relgion of Practice in Western Europe and Christianity will be officially replaced by secualrism we already see this in Sweeden, Norway and Denmark etc France is now there with England’s a prayer away from lossing all faith.

 

[Gunner]

## Yes, I know Galatians 4.6 - Jack Chick is fond of it. It’s the kind of verse that is very handy if one wants to look godly while being ungodly (which all of us are anyway .

And no, I’m not calling you my enemy - simply pointing out that accusation of other Christians is not something we are wise to do, because the Bible shows it as being satan’s job (and sin).

I can’t see any attraction in accusing other Churches of their faults, real or supposed. It’s not our job; we don’t know all the facts; and we have more than enough to repent of ourselves. How can we ask for mercy when we deny it to others ? “Fraternal correction” is all very well - but human beings are very skilful at sanctifying their baser instincts so that they can be unChristian to others.

God’s grace is by no means confined to the CC, however - the opposite idea was condemned as an error in 1713. Anglicans are as sure of God’s grace and mercy as any of us Catholics. Besides, some of their sacramental life is certainly valid even by RC standards.​

If telling the truth is wrong, why did Jesus tell us to Teach all nations all he has taught us. (Matt 28) We all know that the Cof E is heretical. (Founded on lust and greed). This is not bashing it, simply stating a fact. My own wife is Cof E, we must witness to them in charity. Please read ALL I said and not just certain bits you wish to respond to as you are missing the point. If they were not in error, we would not need to evangelise them, they would be Catholic.

On the issue of Graces, you are gravely mistaken to believe that there are abundant graces outside of the one true Church. Only through the Eucharist and Confession are we really able to fight the good fight, with the benefit of indulgences to reduce our temporal punishment. This is much reduced outside of the Church, do not kid yourself as you are diminishing the reality of the sacrifice of our Lord, properly re presented to the Father on our behalf with our participation in the Mass.

As Evangelisation covers a multitude of sins (James 50), it is better to speak the truth in Charity (CCC 905) outside of our comfort zones to our Cof E brethren rather than affirm them in their errors. Be a Soldier for Christ, fight the good fight, win souls and save your own.

Nowadays, less popular, I agree, but more charitable in the great eternal scheme of things.

God Bless

 

[Contarini]

Gunner, if you really think that Henry VIII’s motives have anything to do with whether Anglicanism is heretical, then you need to study the subject a bit more from a less biased perspective. You can criticize Gottle all you like, but his sense of fairness and charity makes me a lot more inclined to become Catholic than all the triumphalist bluster that gets thrown around on these boards. You can be fair and charitable without ceasing to tell the truth–indeed, being fair to those with whom you do not agree is part of telling the truth!

Maccabees, bear in mind that Anglicanism exists all over the world, and in some parts of the world (such as Africa) is growing and vibrant. I understand that even in the C of E the evangelical wing is growing and thriving. I wouldn’t write us off just yet–although I don’t think the “us” is going to be valid much longer (i.e., I myself don’t find ECUSA a tenable place to be right now, and given my location I don’t see any other valid Anglican options).

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[oat_soda]

Gunner, if you really think that Henry VIII’s motives have anything to do with whether Anglicanism is heretical, then you need to study the subject a bit more from a less biased perspective

no, henry the 8th wasn’t heretical, just schismatic, adulterus, and a murderer ( in fact, he wanted the church of england to retain confession and clerical celebacy)

In 1539 the Statute of the Six Articles enforced, under the severest penalties, such doctrines as transubstantiation, Communion under one kind, auricular confession, and the celibacy of the clergy. Under this act offenders were sent to the stake for their Protestantism just as ruthlessly as the aged Margaret, Countess of Salisbury, was attainted by Parliament and eventually beheaded, simply because Henry was irritated by the denunciations of her son Cardinal Pole. Neither was the king less cruel towards those who were nearest to him. Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, his second and fifth wives, perished on the scaffold… Of all the numerous miserable beings whom Henry sent to execution, Cromwell, perhaps, is the only one who fully deserved his fate. Looking at the last fifteen years of Henry’s life, it is hard to find one single feature which does not evoke repulsion, and the attempts made by some writers to whitewash his misdeeds only give proof of the extraordinary prejudice with which they approach the subject. Henry’s cruelties continued to the last, and so likewise did his inconsistencies. newadvent.org/cathen/07222a.htm

why do you expect us to sugar-coat everything. you’re on a catholic forum, get use to it. if you don’t like the tone, find a episcopal one. we love our faith and are not going to tell you it is ok to be protestant or anglican. has the episcopalian church ever apologized for all the catholics they killed?? as a catholic, i look with contempt to the history of this church.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gunner:

If telling the truth is wrong,

Where did I say that ?​

why did Jesus tell us to Teach all nations all he has taught us. (Matt 28) We all know that the Cof E is heretical. (Founded on lust and greed). This is not bashing it, simply stating a fact.

That is a part of the story- but not by any means all. There is far more to the C of E’s history than those details​

My own wife is Cof E, we must witness to them in charity. Please read ALL I said and not just certain bits you wish to respond to as you are missing the point. If they were not in error, we would not need to evangelise them, they would be Catholic.

I read all you said.​

They are Christians already- they don’t need to be evangelised. At least, Popes since and including John Pius XII have ben under the impression that they are Christian. As the acts of these Popes prove, and their utterances. ##

On the issue of Graces, you are gravely mistaken to believe that there are abundant graces outside of the one true Church.

God’s graces are God’s - He gives as He wills, to whom, and when , and in the measure, and how, and where He wills.​

In any case, I prefer to follow the CC on this one - it has rejected the error that God gives no grace outside the Church. And has taught nothing about the quantity given or the means, or such like points. It can scarcely claim the competence to do so. As the Mediaevals knew well, “God is not bound by the Sacraments”. There is far too much evidence of Anglican holiness & grace-filled life for me to deny that God has abundantly blessed the C of E. ##

Only through the Eucharist and Confession are we really able to fight the good fight, with the benefit of indulgences to reduce our temporal punishment. This is much reduced outside of the Church, do not kid yourself as you are diminishing the reality of the sacrifice of our Lord, properly re presented to the Father on our behalf with our participation in the Mass.

I don’t see how I am doing any such thing. The Sacrifice of Christ is His. He is the Primary and True Offerer - human beings are but the created instruments of that perfect and all-sufficient offering; as many Anglican theologians would point out.​

As Evangelisation covers a multitude of sins (James 50), it is better to speak the truth in Charity (CCC 905) outside of our comfort zones to our Cof E brethren rather than affirm them in their errors. Be a Soldier for Christ, fight the good fight, win souls and save your own.

Nowadays, less popular, I agree, but more charitable in the great eternal scheme of things.

God Bless

Thank you - and the same to you ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

oat soda:

no, henry the 8th wasn’t heretical, just schismatic, adulterus, and a murderer ( in fact, he wanted the church of england to retain confession and clerical celebacy) why do you expect us to sugar-coat everything. you’re on a catholic forum, get use to it. if you don’t like the tone, find a episcopal one. we love our faith and are not going to tell you it is ok to be protestant or anglican. has the episcopalian church ever apologized for all the catholics they killed?? as a catholic, i look with contempt to the history of this church.

Some of our own Catholic rulers have not been that attractive.​

I’m not quite sure how a king or queen qualifies as a murderer - most rulers have blood on their hands. Constantine the Great executed his wife and one of his sons - but he’s not attracted quite the “bad press” Henry VIII has for similar conduct. It’s easier to think of rulers who have committed adultery than of rulers who have not - Henry VIII was in no way exceptional there either, which is a pity.

Rather curiously, when the prosecution of Protestants began under his daughter Mary in 1555, the period at which England was deemed to have ceased to be Catholic was not 1535, when Henry was excommunicated, but 1547, when he died. IOW, for that purpose, his excommunication was disregarded - which has always struck me as rather a strange way of going about things. As a result, the number of people who could be held responsible for not being orthodox Catholics was increased - which may have had an effect on the number of those executed.

There is a note on that in Father Philip Hughes’ “The Reformation in England”, volume 2

ISTM that Church which can produce men like William Law and the Wesleys has something to be said for it ##

 

[mean_owen]

## I only wish there were an Anglican on the thread, who would be able to give a far better account of why it is folly for RCs to attack Anglicans than I could … ##

But you’re doing such a good job, GoG!