church pastor says I can't kneel

[Walking_Home]

Not really. This is not a major abuse under RS, which is a document totally aimed at correcting liturgical abuses.

Lux

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An where do you think this abuse is happening—outside of Mass.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Again you twist my words.

I repeat

This obedience issue is certainly an ethical dilema which probably has authentic guidance on both sides. I doubt either response (obeying or disobeying your pastor in this posture matter) would be sinful. As I said posture of the congregation is not a major issue, so I believe the respect for the pastor should take priority, and a discussion or report after, if so desired.

I do not think you are qualified to say I am wrong in my position, just that you also hold a valid oposing one.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Peace

Lux

 

[b_justb]

Its the Church’s place (i.e. Holy See). Rules are rules and as says in the Bible, “if you can’t do the little things, how can you do the big things”.

I’m not trying to be difficult … but if it is the Church’s place to determine what is minor or major; Who do we send our inquiries to? Doesn’t that mean that the vast majority of threads on this forum should just stop because we have the Church telling us what the deal is on all matters?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Here is the link to Redemptionis Sacramentum

usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml

And the section regarding abuse-

1. Graviora Delicta

1. Graviora delicta against the sanctity of the Most August Sacrifice and Sacrament of the Eucharist are to be handled in accordance with the Norms Concerning Graviora Delicta Reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,280 namely:

taking away or retaining the consecrated species for sacrilegious ends, or the throwing them away;281

the attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same;282

the forbidden concelebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice with ministers of Ecclesial Communities that do not have the apostolic succession nor acknowledge the sacramental dignity of priestly Ordination;283

the consecration for sacrilegious ends of one matter without the other in the celebration of the Eucharist or even of both outside the celebration of the Eucharist.284
2. Grave Matters

1. Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nos. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

Again you twist my words.

I repeat
Quote:
This obedience issue is certainly an ethical dilema which probably has authentic guidance on both sides. I doubt either response (obeying or disobeying your pastor in this posture matter) would be sinful. As I said posture of the congregation is not a major issue, so I believe the respect for the pastor should take priority, and a discussion or report after, if so desired.

I do not think you are qualified to say I am wrong in my position, just that you also hold a valid oposing one.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Peace

Lux

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You may repeat all you want Lux et Tenebrae. Being your own authority as to what is a “major issue” --especially when you cannot produce where in RS only “major issues” are addressed–just shows you are picking at straws.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I’m not trying to be difficult … but if it is the Church’s place to determine what is minor or major; Who do we send our inquiries to? Doesn’t that mean that the vast majority of threads on this forum should just stop because we have the Church telling us what the deal is on all matters?

Hi,

We are all discussing what goes on in our parish. Complaints should be addressed to the Pastor in a charitable maner, but if this does not meet our needs

RS also tells us

1. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

(emphesis mine)

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

Here is the link to Redemptionis Sacramentum

usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml

And the section regarding abuse-

Lux

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You forgot to include the following from RS.

1. Other Abuses

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

[175.] The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

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You may repeat all you want Lux et Tenebrae. Being your own authority as to what is a “major issue” --especially when you cannot produce where in RS only “major issues” are addressed–just shows you are picking at straws.

Hi WH,

I never said it shouldn’t be addressed. I said that it probably wouldn’t change, and that if there is a major difference with a pastor, it would be better for both parties if the person changes parishes.

I am not picking at straws, I believe respect for a pastor is a very important issue, and cannot be dismissed over a minor posture issue.

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

Hi WH,

I never said it shouldn’t be addressed. I said that it probably wouldn’t change, and that if there is a major difference with a pastor, it would be better for both parties if the person changes parishes.

I am not picking at straws, I believe respect for a pastor is a very important issue, and cannot be dismissed over a minor posture issue.
Lux

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You may have missed it the first time—hopefully the second time – won’t fly past you again.

RS–2004

. Other Abuses

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law **are not to be considered of little account, **but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

It might come as a shock to some, but there are people out there who can distinguish between a discipline and a doctrine. They may be wrong in their attitude towards a discipline, or wrong in their perception of the exercise of authority by Rome. However, being stubborn about a discipline, or wrong headed, or ill taught about rubrics has nothing to do with belief or lack of belief in doctrine.

In fact, one of the reported Eucharistic Miracles was to a priest who was following the rubrics quite well, but suffering from severe doubt about the True Presence. One simply has nothing much to do with the other.

To ask the question you asked comes across almost as a “did we get another one?” response. There are darn few priests staying in the priesthood who don’t believe in the True Presence but a fair number who either were not taught proper rubrics, or were infected somewhere along the way with a disdain for authority.

This priest is an Alter Christus. You might keep that in mind when you ask such questions. I find the question hardly conducive to maintaining any posititve attitude to this priest; I would suggest that his ordination gives him some dignity whether he acts in a dignified manner or not.

And it strikes me that St Paul said we are all sinners. While the priest is wrong as to his rubrics, are we so far above sin that we dare go around asking if he has lost his faith?

Yes, it is a discipline, but it’s a discipline of the Latin Rite and part of our Spirituality in the West. Worshiping is two fold, spiritual and physical. We worship the real presence of our Lord by our actions in the Mass by kneeling. Taking this away, taking the altar rails away along with bad chatecesis etc. is part of the reason for the non-belief of the real presence among many lay Catholics.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

You may have missed it the first time—hopefully the second time – won’t fly past you again.

Hi WH,

I never said it shouldn’t be addressed. I said that it probably wouldn’t change, and that if there is a major difference with a pastor, it would be better for both parties if the person changes parishes.

I am not picking at straws, I believe respect for a pastor is a very important issue, and cannot be dismissed over a minor posture issue.

Lux

 

[VociMike]

I am not picking at straws, I believe respect for a pastor is a very important issue, and cannot be dismissed over a minor posture issue.

What about respect for the divine authority and wisdom granted the Holy See and the Council Fathers of Vatican II, who called for and brought about this new Missal, which disobedience of you consider a minor issue? Since when is blowing off the Pope and Vatican II a minor issue?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Edit: On re-reading this, the original poster isn’t talking about kneeling during the consecration, which the GIRM requires, he’s talking about kneeling between Holy Holy and the great Amen. The GIRM doesn’t state what should be done at that point, but leaves it up to the bishops.

In Canada I know that about 15 years ago they made a change which allowed people to decide for themselves whether to kneel or stand after the Holy Holy Holy until the great Amen. Most parishes the people all stand, but I’ve found that in certain parishes especially at daily masses more people kneel, or sometimes half the people are doing one thing and half are doing the other thing.

Is it really church law that we have to kneel? I can’t imagine the Canadian bishops making a rule that wen’t against Rome?

You could check liturgical law in this matter, which says to kneel during the eucharistic prayer, in the Latin rite that is, by going onto google.com and typing GIRM (which stands for General Instruction for the Roman missal. Your pastor is requiring you to violate the law of the Church. In view of the unpleasantness involved, I in my own case, would go to another parish, since this would be too disturbing when going to mass there.
Luckily, it seems, such litrugical abuses are on the way out since younger priests are more orthodox.
The Church has insisted that unity in the Church means first of all unity with the universal Church, not unity with the practices of a particular parish, whether they are right or wrong.

 

[Walking_Home]

You may have missed it the first time—hopefully the second time – won’t fly past you again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux et Tenebrae
Hi WH,

I never said it shouldn’t be addressed. I said that it probably wouldn’t change, and that if there is a major difference with a pastor, it would be better for both parties if the person changes parishes.

I am not picking at straws, I believe respect for a pastor is a very important issue, and cannot be dismissed over a minor posture issue.

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No I didn’t—and provided Church documentation which over-rides your view of “minor posture issue”.

RS–2004

. Other Abuses

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

 

[otjm]

Yes, it is a discipline, but it’s a discipline of the Latin Rite and part of our Spirituality in the West. Worshiping is two fold, spiritual and physical. We worship the real presence of our Lord by our actions in the Mass by kneeling. Taking this away, taking the altar rails away along with bad chatecesis etc. is part of the reason for the non-belief of the real presence among many lay Catholics.

I will agree with you whole-heartedly that poor catechesis has resutled in what is often describerd as non-beleif in the Real Presence (the poll concerning what Cathoics believe has been thoroughly dissected elsewhere, and the conclusion is that the poll was not particularly well written, and so gives a false information set); however, ascribing the removal of altar rails as causing that is a bit over the top; the Church managed for centuries without any altar rails wahtsoever, and belief in the Real Presence was rampant and strong. Let’s not play the post hoc, ergo propter hoc arguement.

And the same applies to posture; changing one posture for another is not going to cause loss of faith.

 

[otjm]

What about respect for the divine authority and wisdom granted the Holy See and the Council Fathers of Vatican II, who called for and brought about this new Missal, which disobedience of you consider a minor issue? Since when is blowing off the Pope and Vatican II a minor issue?

The posture is not an issue of Vatican 2. Kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer was not an innovation of Vatican 2. It is a post Vatican 2 innovation by someone (I wish I knew who started it; they definitely need our prayers) who felt that the symbolism of one posture was more important than the symbolism of another. I would hazard a guess it was done with enthusiasm, rather than ill-will, and done at a time that liturgical experimentation was rampant. What we cannot seem to understand is that people who made these decisions most often did so not with the idea of corrupting anything, but of improving it. There was a combination of hubris and naievety, as well as a lack of direction from all sources of authority.
And by the grace of God, this is starting to sort itself out; if for no other reason than that those who led the charge for experimentation are not longer in the forefront.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I go to mass every morning where everyone stands during the consecration. I always kneel.

between the holy holy and “amen.”

Who told you that the Church requires you to kneel at this point? that is NOT the consecration. You are being disobedient to your pastor

 

[b_justb]

Who told you that the Church requires you to kneel at this point? that is NOT the consecration. You are being disobedient to your pastor

Prepare to be GIRM’d to death, mate …

 

[VociMike]

The posture is not an issue of Vatican 2. Kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer was not an innovation of Vatican 2. It is a post Vatican 2 innovation by someone (I wish I knew who started it; they definitely need our prayers) who felt that the symbolism of one posture was more important than the symbolism of another. I would hazard a guess it was done with enthusiasm, rather than ill-will, and done at a time that liturgical experimentation was rampant. What we cannot seem to understand is that people who made these decisions most often did so not with the idea of corrupting anything, but of improving it. There was a combination of hubris and naievety, as well as a lack of direction from all sources of authority.
And by the grace of God, this is starting to sort itself out; if for no other reason than that those who led the charge for experimentation are not longer in the forefront.

Did you really mean to say that kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer was a post Vatican II innovation?

Anyway, the Novus Ordo Missal traces itself directly back to the documents of Vatican II, and thus disobedience of the rubrics of the Novus Ordo is clearly, in my mind, disobedience to the will of Vatican II. If more people thought of these things in that light, they might think twice before doing them.

 

[Nordar]

I can just see the local church bulletin:

The following abuses are considered minor rather than major, and thus the directives of the Church in their regard may be freely ignored:

1. Posture at Mass
   2)…

Added to that,… There will be a POLL as to what some see as Minor or Major. So we can implement those voted on: