Church Security & Legally Armed Parishioners

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farronwolf said:
Your problem, not mine, as long as I am abiding by the law.
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The larger question is not whether at this time and place “I should carry a gun”. The bigger question is whether a society is a better place with a policy of ready availability of firearms, or a much different position. Of course, the thread topic is rather narrower than that.
 
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The specific case of Mass does offer some interesting and unique circumstances not seen in other parts of society. I wonder if the location of the diocese might affect which bishops allow them, which ones deny them, and which ones let the priest determine. I do not recall every seeing a sign forbidding CCH entering a Church.
 
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pnewton said:
The specific case of Mass does offer some interesting and unique circumstances not seen in other parts of society. I wonder if the location of the diocese might affect which bishops allow them, which ones deny them, and which ones let the priest determine. I do not recall every seeing a sign forbidding CCH entering a Church.
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Three pastors ago at our parish, the Msgr, actually carried a gun during Mass. But this is Texas and he wore cowboy boots, so maybe that had something to do with it.

He also did confessions during the Lenten fish fries sitting on a picnic table too. That is probably too unconventional for some folk, but it worked for others.
 
farronwolf said:
You will have to admit that there are some law abiding citizens who don’t want to accept that folks who carry their gun to church, abiding by the law, have every right to do so regardless of others personal objections. They are not breaking the law, not affecting others, so it shouldn’t be a problem. But to some it is.

Church is no place for a gun. Opinion
I wouldn’t feel comfortable if people had guns in church. Your problem, not mine, as long as I am abiding by the law.
You shouldn’t feel you need to carry a gun. Opinion
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Yes it is a problem for some if us, despite that it may be legal (in some circumstances, in our Texas diocese it would be illegal at every parish).

Yes it is an opinion if ours that a Catholic Church us no place for guns (not unlike knights in the middle ages having to leave their weapons at the doors of churches). Yes, it us our opinion that for most people, in most circumstances, they should not feel the need to carry a gun.

Why do you have a problem with us expressing and arguing for our opinion? You place a lot of stress on what’s legal. Well, perhaps some if us desire that the laws be changed.
 
A priest was armed during mass? In the abscence of a direct threat, I would immediately report this to the bishop.
 
tafan2 said:
Yes it is a problem for some if us, despite that it may be legal (in some circumstances, in our Texas diocese it would be illegal at every parish).

Yes it is an opinion if ours that a Catholic Church us no place for guns (not unlike knights in the middle ages having to leave their weapons at the doors of churches). Yes, it us our opinion that for most people, in most circumstances, they should not feel the need to carry a gun.

Why do you have a problem with us expressing and arguing for our opinion? You place a lot of stress on what’s legal. Well, perhaps some if us desire that the laws be changed.
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I am not following. You state that in a Diocese in Texas it may be illegal in some circumstances. The only time it would be illegal is if the parish posted appropriate 30.06, 30.07 signage at the entrance or if verbal communication was given each time that carrying of guns is not permitted. If these actions were taken, most, if not all of the LTC holders would comply with the request not to carry onto the property.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If you want Texas to change the laws, you are free to lobby your representatives and senators to have the laws changed. Until such time as the laws are changed, opinions are simply that.

As far as reporting that the pastor carried a gun during mass, I am fairly certain that the Bishop knew full well of his actions. If the priest waited until there was a direct threat to arm himself it would be too late wouldn’t it? Fairly certain the threat wouldn’t comply with the request that he/she cease all harmful actions until the priest was able to go get his gun from the rectory in order to attempt to stop the threat. It just doesn’t work that way in real life.
 
I’m still in a state of shock after reading this thread.
People carry guns into churches in USA???
People will change churches if they are not allowed to carry guns???
A Bishop says no to guns in the church and someone will go around to the priest till the poor man says “I won’t search you” and that is taken as permission???
I just don’t know where to start from, so from my still in shock state:
-The Mass is sacred, we are there for a reason and that is to worship God and receive The Eucharist.
-If the Bishop says no guns, then no guns (I can’t grasp why anyone would need to be told that a church is no place for guns to begin with). Doing otherwise is disobedient and feels like pride.
-God protects us. In Him we trust. Not in guns, in God. Reading this thread, it feels like if some people do not have a gun on them, then God won’t protect them. It almost feels reading this that guns are what help people wake up and go to sleep.
-If we understand the value of Mass, why would we even consider not going without a gun?
-Also, I read about people knowing in how many seconds they can draw and shoot. It makes me wonder if they shoot to kill or disarm.
-I completely agree with those here that have touched on the upside of dying in church. This is not a desire to die before our time or in a violent way but, in acceptance of the will of God. He gives and He takes. If there is one thing we can be sure of, is that we will all leave this world. Sadly, not all of us in our sleep. But I pray for a holy death having received all the sacraments. When I wake up in the morning, I thank God. People, guns do not save. They can protect, yes. But they can never be above our trust in God. There is a cycle of violence established and we can’t solve it with violence. A gun should never enter a church, never. It is a sacred place. This is how I see it, from a country I feel safe going to church in as the person next to me is not carrying a gun.
 
farronwolf said:
I am not following. You state that in a Diocese in Texas it may be illegal in some circumstances. The only time it would be illegal is if the parish posted appropriate 30.06, 30.07 signage at the entrance
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Every parish is required by the bishop to do this in our diocese.
 
farronwolf said:
As far as reporting that the pastor carried a gun during mass, I am fairly certain that the Bishop knew full well of his actions
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I would just make sure the Bishop knew. If the Bishop allowed it, I would let it rest, beyond voicing my displeasure one time.
 
farronwolf said:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If you want Texas to change the laws, you are free to lobby your representatives and senators to have the laws changed. Until such time as the laws are changed, opinions are simply that.
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No, they are more than that. they are a means of arguing our position, which needs to be done to a greater audience than just our legislatures. Laws reflect public opinion. Pulbilc opinion can only change if we argue differences publicly.

This attitude, laws are what matter, talk to your legislators, but don’t bother me us quite hypocritical.
 
Why? There is not violation of canon law or civil law. I don’t like guns and do not carry one, but it is matter of judgement only.
 
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Not that I know of, but I do think if a priest is going to be armed during mass, the Bishop should know and have an opportunity to decide if it should be allowed or not. Just my opinion.
I know of no Canon law that says only things against the law can be brought to the attention if the Bishop.
This is certainly not something I normally do, indeed I have only done it once. It was sort if the opposite case where I knew if parishioners complaining about our pastor to the diocese and I thought the Bishop should hear from people who had a different view.
 
In my Diocese the policy is the local pastor is responsible for developing Parish safety/security plans and as a part of the plan, must consider whether to allow duly licensed and appropriately trained individuals and/or 3rd party security services organizations to possess firearms on Parish property. State firearms laws do allow firearms on Church properties subject to the pastor’s permission. It is against the law for firearms to be present on school property unless the individual is a school resource officer, law enforcement, armored car service officer, etc.

The Diocese is however, prayfully considering a more formal position on the subject of firearms possession on Diocesan property, which should follow in the coming months.
 
Patri said:
This is how I see it, from a country I feel safe going to church in as the person next to me is not carrying a gun.
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Please know, if you ever enter a Church here in the US, you will be safe. The paranoia of the gun toters is really unjustified, as has been shown on this thread.
 
Thank you. I have never visited so don’t know the situation but I can’t imagine a gun in a church. I read through the whole thread in shock. May we above all learn to truly and completely trust in God.
 
Point being, that if we legislate based on worse case scenarios of “what if” then nothing would be allowed.

Think of all the legal drugs that have side effects. Think of all the products that could cause injury. Legislating or living based on worse case scenario is a bad thing IMO.
 
If that is how you see the other parts of the country where you do not leave, you are sadly misinformed by stereotypes. The ease at which such prejudices develop is why the Church allows for local bishops to make most decisions.
 
How do they check for a mental illness history? If you get diagnosed, do you go on a database or something? Isn’t that private and doesn’t that discourage people from getting help?
 
At minimum, one could check the database that is available. My state has such a database. Most of the people who are most dangerous are in it.
 
Don’t they have to have been convicted of a crime to be on such a database?
 
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