Church taught NO Hell?

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Athenagoras (A.D. 177):

But they have further also made up stories against us of impious feasts and forbidden intercourse between the sexes, both that they may appear to themselves to have rational grounds of hatred, and because they think either by fear to lead us away from our way of life, or to render the rulers harsh and inexorable by the magnitude of the charges they bring. But they lose their labour with those who know that from of old it has been the custom, and not in our time only, for vice to make war on virtue. Thus Pythagoras, with three hundred others, was burnt to death; Heraclitus and Democritus were banished, the one from the city of the Ephesians, the other from Abdera, because he was charged with being mad; and the Athenians condemned Socrates to death. But as they were none the worse in respect of virtue because of the opinion of the multitude, so neither does the undiscriminating calumny of some persons cast any shade upon us as regards rectitude of life, for with God we stand in good repute. Nevertheless, I will meet these charges also, although I am well assured that by what has been already said I have cleared myself to you. For as you excel all men in intelligence, you know that those whose life is directed towards God as its rule, so that each one among us may be blameless and irreproachable before Him, will not entertain even the thought of the slightest sin. For if we believed that we should live only the present life, then we might be suspected of sinning, through being enslaved to flesh and blood, or overmastered by gain or carnal desire; but since we know that God is witness to what we think and what we say both by night and by day, and that He, being Himself light, sees all things in our heart, we are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly (since we shall abide near God, and with God, free from all change or suffering in the soul, not as flesh, even though we shall have flesh, but as heavenly spirit), or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated. On these grounds it is not likely that we should wish to do evil, or deliver ourselves over to the great Judge to be punished.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Mathetes (A.D. 160):

If you also desire [to possess] this faith, you likewise shall receive first of all the knowledge of the Father. For God has loved mankind, on whose account He made the world, to whom He rendered subject all the things that are in it, to whom He gave reason and understanding, to whom alone He imparted the privilege of looking upwards to Himself, whom He formed after His own image, to whom He sent His only-begotten Son, to whom He has promised a kingdom in heaven, and will give it to those who have loved Him. And when you have attained this knowledge, with what joy do you think you will be filled? Or, how will you love Him who has first so loved you? And if you love Him, you will be an imitator of His kindness. And do not wonder that a man may become an imitator of God. He can, if he is willing. For it is not by ruling over his neighbours, or by seeking to hold the supremacy over those that are weaker, or by being rich, and showing violence towards those that are inferior, that happiness is found; nor can any one by these things become an imitator of God. But these things do not at all constitute His majesty. On the contrary he who takes upon himself the burden of his neighbour; he who, in whatsoever respect he may be superior, is ready to benefit another who is deficient; he who, whatsoever things he has received from God, by distributing these to the needy, becomes a god to those who receive [his benefits]: he is an imitator of God. Then thou shalt see, while still on earth, that God in the heavens rules over [the universe]; then thou shall begin to speak the mysteries of God; then shalt thou both love and admire those that suffer punishment because they will not deny God; then shall thou condemn the deceit and error of the world when thou shall know what it is to live truly in heaven, when thou shalt despise that which is here esteemed to be death, when thou shalt fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who shall be condemned to the eternal fire, which shall afflict those even to the end that are committed to it. Then shalt thou admire those who for righteousness’ sake endure the fire that is but for a moment, and shalt count them happy when thou shalt know [the nature of] that fire.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

The Martyrdom of Polycarp [A.D. 155]:

All the martyrdoms, then, were blessed and noble which took place according to the will of God. For it becomes us who profess greater piety than others, to ascribe the authority over all things to God. And truly, who can fail to admire their nobleness of mind, and their patience, with that love towards their Lord which they displayed?–who, when they were so torn with scourges, that the frame of their bodies, even to the very inward veins and arteries, was laid open, still patiently endured, while even those that stood by pitied and bewailed them. But they reached such a pitch of magnanimity, that not one of them let a sigh or a groan escape them; thus proving to us all that those holy martyrs of Christ, at the very time when they suffered such torments, were absent from the body, or rather, that the Lord then stood by them, and communed with them. And, looking to the grace of Christ, they despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by [the suffering of] a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched, and looked forward with the eyes of their heart to those good things which are laid up for such as endure; things “which ear hath not heard, nor eye seen, neither have entered into the heart of man,” but were revealed by the Lord to them, inasmuch as they were no longer men, but had already become angels. And, in like manner, those who were condemned to the wild beasts endured dreadful tortures, being stretched out upon beds full of spikes, and subjected to various other kinds of torments, in order that, if it were possible, the tyrant might, by their lingering tortures, lead them to a denial [of Christ].

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Saint Justin Martyr [A.D. 151]:

And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire; but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments. For those who, on account of the laws and punishments you impose, endeavour to escape detection when they offend (and they offend, too, under the impression that it is quite possible to escape your detection, since you are but men), those persons, if they learned and were convinced that nothing, whether actually done or only intended, can escape the knowledge of God, would by all means live decently on account of the penalties threatened, as even you yourselves will admit. But you seem to fear lest all men become righteous, and you no longer have any to punish. Such would be the concern of public executioners, but not of good princes. But, as we before said, we are persuaded that these things are prompted by evil spirits, who demand sacrifices and service even from those who live unreasonably; but as for you, we presume that you who aim at [a reputation for] piety and philosophy will do nothing unreasonable. But if you also, like the foolish, prefer custom to truth, do what you have power to do. But just so much power have rulers who esteem opinion more than truth, as robbers have in a desert. And that you will not succeed is declared by the Word, than whom, after God who begat Him, we know there is no ruler more kingly and just. For as all shrink from succeeding to the poverty or sufferings or obscurity of their fathers, so whatever the Word forbids us to choose, the sensible man will not choose. That all these things should come to pass, I say, our Teacher foretold, He who is both Son and Apostle of God the Father of all and the Ruler, Jesus Christ; from whom also we have the name of Christians. Whence we become more assured of all the things He taught us, since whatever He beforehand foretold should come to pass, is seen in fact coming to pass; and this is the work of God, to tell of a thing before it happens, and as it was foretold so to show it happening. It were possible to pause here and add no more, reckoning that we demand what is just and true; but because we are well aware that it is not easy suddenly to change a mind possessed by ignorance, we intend to add a few things, for the sake of persuading those who love the truth, knowing that it is not impossible to put ignorance to flight by presenting the truth.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Saint Justin continued (from the same source):

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Saint Justin, yet again, from the same source:

Since, then, we prove that all things which have already happened had been predicted by the prophets before they came to pass, we must necessarily believe also that those things which are in like manner predicted, but are yet to come to pass, shall certainly happen. For as the things which have already taken place came to pass when foretold, and even though unknown, so shall the things that remain, even though they be unknown and disbelieved, yet come to pass. For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: “I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame.”

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Then there’s *Second Clement * [A.D. 150]:

Now the Lord declares, “No servant can serve two masters.” If we desire, then, to serve both God and mammon, it will be unprofitable for us. “For what will it profit if a man gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” This world and the next are two enemies. The one urges to adultery and corruption, avarice and deceit; the other bids farewell to these things. We cannot, therefore, be the friends of both; and it behoves us, by renouncing the one, to make sure of the other. Let us reckon that it is better to hate the things present, since they are trifling, and transient, and corruptible; and to love those [which are to come,] as being good and incorruptible. For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, “If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity.” Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how can we hope to enter into the royal residence of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found possessed of works of holiness and righteousness?

. . .

Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that no one of us may perish amiss. For if we have commands and engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, how much more ought a soul already knowing God not to perish. Rendering, therefore, mutual help, let us raise the weak also in that which is good, that all of us may be saved and convert one another and admonish. And not only now let us seem to believe and give heed, when we are admonished by the elders; but also when we take our departure home, let us remember the commandments of the Lord, and not be allured back by worldly lusts, but let us often and often draw near and try to make progress in the Lord’s commands, that we all having the same mind may be gathered together for life. For the Lord said, “I come to gather all nations [kindreds] and tongues.” This means the day of His appearing, when He will come and redeem us–each one according to his works. And the unbelievers will see His glory and might, and, when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprise, saying, “Woe to us, because Thou wast, and we knew not and believed not and obeyed not the elders who show us plainly of our salvation.” And “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle unto all flesh.” It is of the great day of judgment He speaks, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ. The righteous, having succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart."

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Finally, Saint Ignatius of Antioch [A.D. 110]:

Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.

I know, I killed it . . .

This speaks volumes . . if most Christians did not believe this, then it was not the predominite view of the Church at that time . . or an official teaching of the Church then. If it had been, it would be expected that most would have believed it was indeed etneral, as we are bound to believe what the Church requires us to believe as true. The fact that MOST did not testifies that the Church did not officially teach an eternal hell at that time.

Nah, not really. Throughout Church history, on a number of topics, there’s been a tension between the official or semi-official doctrine of the Church and the faith of the “poor, uneducated, joe-schmoe masses.” For example, abortion. infanticide, and artificial birth prevention have always been condemned by the Church, but these practices were both commonplace among even Christian peoples until well into the thirteenth century. Likewise, the Church has always condemned superstition and idolatry, but these often existed side-by-side with Catholicism among Catholic laymen (and still do, in many countries).

Even today, probably a majority of Catholics don’t believe that there will be a new heaven *and a new earth * after Judgement Day. Most beleive we will just be in heaven, and don’t even bother to consider the purpose of a resurrected body. They don’t believe because they don’t know better.

I could go on and on, but you get the point.

This goes a long way to establishing what the Church taught . . and that the Church did not TEACH on this issue one way or the other until some point in the future when Augustine’s views were adopted . .

As I’ve shown, it wasn’t “Augustine’s views.” To all the names I documented above, I could add Minucius Felix, Saint Cyprian of Carthage, Lactantius, and Saint Cyril of Jerusalem.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

*When I was researching this several years ago, I did not find a dogmatic statement by the Church that Hell is eternal . . . I stopped researching this several years ago after not being able to find such a definitive statement, so perhaps it was, and I just didn’t go far enough . . the only thing I could find was reference to the Second Council of Constantinople of 553 AD as when the belief in an eternal hell was first officially embrace. However, in looking over the canons of that council, I could find nothing which mentions anything about hell; it is concerned with Christological heresies and proper Christology . … *

Yes, the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople did condemn Origen’s doctrine and affirm the eternity of Hell. Go to this link, and scroll way down, to “The Anathematisms of the Emperor Justinian Against Origenism.”

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.

Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine, and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends
these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.

Apparently, however, there is some doubt as to the Ecumenicity of this portion of the Council (i.e. whether or not this portion was received and ratified by the Pope as “dogmatic”). In any event, there is no doubt that it certainly was reaffirmed and (re?)dogmatized by the Fourth Lateran Ecumenical Council of 1215:

This holy Trinity, which is undivided according to its common essence but distinct according to the properties of its persons, gave the teaching of salvation to the human race through Moses and the holy prophets and his other servants, according to the most appropriate disposition of the times. Finally the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, who became incarnate by the action of the whole Trinity in common and was conceived from the ever virgin Mary through the cooperation of the holy Spirit, having become true man, composed of a rational soul and human flesh, one person in two natures, showed more clearly the way of life. Although he is immortal and unable to suffer according to his divinity, he was made capable of suffering and dying according to his humanity. Indeed, having suffered and died on the wood of the cross for the salvation of the human race, he descended to the underworld, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. He descended in the soul, rose in the flesh, and ascended in both. He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad;** for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil**, for the former eternal glory with Christ.

 

[Scapular]

DominusVobiscum,

Great job on this!

Faithfully yours,
Scapular

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Thanks, Scapular!

The fact that a book could be issued today with the imprimatur that gives the eventual reconcilliation of all as a viable belief in the Catholic Church today strongly attests, in my mind at least, that what I have read is perhaps true . . that there has been no dogmatic statement by the Church . . Hell taught as such, yes, but dogmatically?

There are two possibilities regarding this:

1. The book is heretical, the author a hertic, and the diocesan censor either also a heretic or grossly negligent.
2. It could be that you are misunderstanding the book’s thesis. It is perfectly orthodox to speculate that hell, though populated by Satan and his demons, is devoid of humans, since there has never been a human being who has died in unrepented mortal sin. Since only God knows this, it’s not heretical to speculate it.

To say that a soul, once consigned to Hell, can get out, is heretical.

Does the book promote the former belief, or the latter?

Hope I helped out some.

 

[theresepio]

Hi DV

Thank you for taking the time to provide such extensive quotes. I know that took a lot of effort and time to do so, and I want you to know it is appreciated.

I just have a couple of observations.

One, I was not very clear in what I said about Tertullian, regardig how he embraced the idea of an eternal hell. I do not have the exact quote with me any longer, and I wish I had the time and enegy to do what you did above and find it to share with you here. . . however, it was very wrenching to my heart . . He basically spoke wiath absolute glee and delight at the personal propect of observing the damned being tortured and writhing in pain forever, for eternity, while observing it all from heaven… I cannot fathom anyone taking such a cruel and heartless stance, neither can I imagine anyone embracing it as he did . . hence, my comment regarding not knowing any other ECF who embraced that belief as he did. I knew there were others who held to the permenance of hell, but none like Tertullian. . .

In regards to the teacing of an eternal hell where none escape from, I appreciate you sharing the text from the councils above. As you noted, the 2nd council of Constantinople, it is interesting that you brought up the Anethema’s of **Emperor ** Justin . .

He did propose them, but they are not found in the canons of the Council or the Anethema’s of the Council. The Emperor had no power to make Church doctrine, let alone Dogma . . no promise is given to secular powers to be led infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the declaration of true and right belief.

The Anethema’s of the Emperor are his, not those of the Church, and so say nothing of what the Church dogmatically proclaimed, believed and taught.

It is very curious that in the letter at the beginning of that article from the Emeror Justin, he says this:

We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith./indent

We know that Gregory of Nyssa and Ambrose shared the view of the eventual reconcilliation of all . . and here Emperor Justin is saying that he holds fast to, and follows IN EVERY WAY these Holy Fathers . . .

Regardless, there is nothing dogmatic that can be said to have come out of this council regarding the Church’s position on the eternal nature of hell.

Peace in Him!​

 

[theresepio]

Now, fast forward to the other council you mentioned, Fourth Lateran Ecumenical Council of 1215, you highlighted this part of the quote, and I would like to draw your attention again to it, for something significant is there:

so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter **perpetual ** punishment with the devil, for the former **eternal ** glory with Christ.

Notice the two differnt choices of words here …

Only the glory with Christ is referred to as “eternal” and rightly so.

However, the length of time the bad will be punsihed with the devil is described as “Perpetual” . . . it is odd that if the Council meant “eternal” that they would not have used that word when they used it a few words later regarding the blessed state of the saved.

Perpetual does not mean eternal (at least in most instances it would not be considered as such), neither is it an equivilant word that can be automatically substituted with the word eternal.

here are some definitions:

uninterrupted in time and indefinitely long continuing; “the ceaseless thunder of surf”; “in constant pain”; “night and day we live with the incessant noise of the city”; “the never-ending search for happiness”; “the perpetual struggle to maintain standards in a democracy”; “man’s unceasing warfare with drought and isolation”; “unremitting demands of hunger”
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

occurring so frequently as to seem ceaseless or uninterrupted; “a child’s incessant questions”; “your perpetual (or continual) complaints”
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

A security without a time limit for redemption.
www.exchange-handbook.co.uk/glossary.cfm

A type of calendar that automatically adjusts for months of different lengths and indicates February 29 in each leap year.
www.wristwatch.com/glossary.html

A fixed income security with no maturity date, e.g., British consul or a preferred stock with no sinking fund.
www.mwamllc.com/glos/p.html

If your program license does not specify a term, it is perpetual and shall continue unless terminated as otherwise provided in the Agreement.
www.ensyncsolutions.com/licensing_definitions.htm

I find it odd they would have chosen two differnt words, one of which does not carry the sense of eternal in the majority of applications, if they indeed meant to convey that both were undoubtedly eternal . …

Perpetual is too vague a word to be used to claim that this decree dogmatically states hell is eternal; . …

This is what I mean . . there is no clear dogmatic statement that hell is eternal that I can find, yet it is commonly held that it is a dogma of the Church.

As a convert who has studied much into Church history, who had to have MANY questions answered, and who began to do apologetics as soon as she decided she had no choice other than to become Catholic if she was going to be true to what God had shown her, I learned very quickly to not be afraid of examining anything the Cahtolic Church teaches . . and this is no exception.

I would like to find a clear dogmatic statement for this belief as we have for the other dogmas of the Catholic Church.

The statement of “perpetual” hell comes close, but it does not quite make it all the way . . The councils were very careful in their choice of words, and given that they had no qualms about using the word eternal in regards to heavenly glory enjoyed by the saints, it is strange that they would have equivocated when it came to the duration of hell, if indeed it was considered eternal beyond all shadow of a doubt. . .

If you have any further information on this, I would be very appreciative if you could share it!

Peace in Him!

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

You have to cut Tertullian, and others like him, some slack for the literary license they enjoyed when writing about the afterlife. They make extensive use of hyperbole.

That being said, the Catholic tradition does acknowledge that the saints in Heaven do, in fact, rejoice and take pleasure in seeing the damned being punished for their sins. Not because they are sadists and enjoy seeing them suffer, but because there is an intellectual beauty to the divine justice, and seeing this being played out does bring with it some measure of joy. Aquinas discusses this in his Summa. I could give the full citation if you wish.

Regarding the Second Council of Constantinople:

True, no lay-man may make a particular doctrine binding. But it was certainly within the Emperor’s rights to propose the anathemas against Origenism, for the bishops to consider.

There is, in fact, some controversy as to whether or not those anathematisms were later ratified by the Pope as dogmatic. It is certain that they were ratified by the bishops present at the Council.

I believe the modern consensus is that they were, in fact, considered Dogmatic. Every modern source I’ve read on the subject takes for granted the fact the Church condemned Origenism at the Second Council of Constantinople. Henry Denzinger, in his Sources of Catholic Dogma, lists these condemnations as definitive. (Denzinger’s work, in case you don’t know, is the Church’s quasi-official comendium of official Church teaching, consisting of quotations from primary sources. The work is frequently cited in the Catechism). And even the Holy Father, in his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, refers to the Council’s condemnation of Origen’s doctrine as if it were accepted by the Church as authoritative.

The Fourth Lateran Council:

Not to be uncharitable, but you’re really grabbing at straws here. Did you even bother to read the quotes you posted?

“Perpetual” means forever; it is synonymous with “eternal.” If anything, it’s the word “eternal” that can sometimes denote a really long period of time, but not “forever.”

Why did the Council use two different words? Why not? Quite frankly, it “sounds better” to use two different, but synonymous, words in a sentence rather than to repeat yourself.

If nothing else, consider historical context. By this point in history, the reality of a truly eternal (i.e. forever) Hell had fully permeated the Church’s teaching, and there simply was no question on the matter. There simply is no reason to believe that the Council Fathers intended for “perpetual” and “eternal” to mean two different things.

While the words “eternal,” “perpetual,” and “forever,” and “without end” can be used in our day-to-day speech in an exagerrated sense, like when we are angry or just using hyperbole, the words have specific meanings and connotations when the Church uses them.

Otherwise, anybody could read any Church statement on the matter and say, “When the Church said ‘such-and-such’ she really just meant a really long period of time.”

The Church’s stance on this is pretty clear to me, as well as to every orthodox Catholic bishop and theologian I know of.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

The Catholic Encyclopedia states it best:

The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine [the eternity of Hell] are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, “De Angelis”, III, viii). We merely call to mind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. “Martyrium Polycarpi”, c. ii (cf. Atzberger, “Geschichte”, II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, “Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten”, Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, “Theologische Zeitfragen”, 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy.

I don’t have a copy of Denzinger’s book, but I know from other books that among these “authentic doctrinal decisions” are decrees from the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent. I’m too lazy to look through these Councils thmselves to find the relevant decrees. Maybe someone else’ll lend the time . . .

Did you read my post concerning the book you claim teaches Universalism as a possibility? If you have the time, could you quote the relavant passages from it that supposeduly support it?

Thanks.

 

[tomhansen]

St. Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church, taught that God will
save every person and hell will be empty.

 

[jackpuffin]

St. Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church, taught that God will
save every person and hell will be empty.

I’ve never heard this. Could you please let me see where her writings mentions this. Aside from all this, being a Doctor of the Church doesn’t mean that everything you write is infallible doctrine. It just means that portions of what you have written has contributed to the definition of the doctrine of the Church. Of course, that’s how I understand it.

 

[FelixBlue]

tomhansen:

St. Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church, taught that God will
save every person and hell will be empty.

Yes…a source or quote?

 

[willymonfrete]

Hello jackpuffin,

Seeing that it is Jesus and not Moses who gave us the concept of hell, the Church had better echo Jesus message. Moses taught of spiritual life and spiritual death but he did not paint the horrific picture of hell (eternal damnation), that Jesus dose.

NAB MAT 25:41Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

**NAB MAT 13:47-50 **

The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and **hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth. **NAB MAT 5:20

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven . "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

NAB MAT 23:33

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?

NAB LUK 10:15And as for you, Caernaum, ‘Are you to be exalted to the skies? You shall be hurled down to the realm of death!’

Please visit WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

universalists will say aenon doesn’t mean eternal but for a prescribed period of time.

 

[willymonfrete]

I read on universalist websites that universalism or atleast the idea that hell was temporary were the main doctrines of the church for 500 years tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html