Church Teaching and possible schism

[noma]

A few questions:

First, how does one go about formally denouncing the Catholic Church?

What, if anything, does the Catholic Church do in response?

Would I be a schismatic?

Since I would know what the Catholic Church teaches, and with full knowledge and freedom of will deny it, what implications does this have for my soul, according to Catholic teaching?

Thank you.

 

[mercygate]

A few questions:

First, how does one go about formally denouncing the Catholic Church?

What, if anything, does the Catholic Church do in response?

Would I be a schismatic?

Since I would know what the Catholic Church teaches, and with full knowledge and freedom of will deny it, what implications does this have for my soul, according to Catholic teaching?

Thank you.

noma, you taught RCIA. How about checking this in the *Catechism? *

 

[noma]

The Code of Canon Law states “Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” (Canon 751)

But it also states: “The canons of this Code concern only the latin Church.” (Canon 1)

So by the Code of Canon Law, it seems as though no penalty can be assessed justly to me, as I would be outside the latin Church.

If this does not apply, it appears that I am a schismatic, for I would be withdrawing from both submission to the Supreme Pontiff and from communion with members of the Catholic Church subject to him.

It also seems that I am a heretic, for I reject that he has any legislative authority, and this authority, the Roman Catholic Church claims, is a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. As I deny this, it seems as though I am also a heretic.

I am certainly not apostate.

I cannot seem to find any documentation that suggests how I should formally leave the Catholic Church. But I have written to my Bishop asking for more information. I want to make sure I separate in a way most convenient to the Catholic Church and myself.

I have no idea what the administrative offices of the Catholic Church would do in response. Would they write me another letter? Would they send someone to talk with me? What is the policy on this? If it depends on diocese, I am in the Franklin Diocese.

As I find some small ambiguity in my case, I do not know how the Catholic Church would answer the last question at all.

Though I think that CCC 1858 - 1859 would apply, as this would be (I believe) a grave matter, I would be performing this in full knowledge that this is against the will of the Catholic Church, and with unimpaired consent. If I remain unrepentant unto death, the Catholic Church it would seem would consider me likely condemned to hell.

But I would like to know if others agree, and if others could answer the unanswered questions, and more completely answer the ones that I have begun to answer.

Thank you.

 

[mercygate]

The Code of Canon Law states “Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” (Canon 751)

But it also states: “The canons of this Code concern only the latin Church.” (Canon 1)

So by the Code of Canon Law, it seems as though no penalty can be assessed justly to me, as I would be outside the latin Church.

If this does not apply, it appears that I am a schismatic, for I would be withdrawing from both submission to the Supreme Pontiff and from communion with members of the Catholic Church subject to him.

It also seems that I am a heretic, for I reject that he has any legislative authority, and this authority, the Roman Catholic Church claims, is a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. As I deny this, it seems as though I am also a heretic.

I am certainly not apostate.

I cannot seem to find any documentation that suggests how I should formally leave the Catholic Church. But I have written to my Bishop asking for more information. I want to make sure I separate in a way most convenient to the Catholic Church and myself.

I have no idea what the administrative offices of the Catholic Church would do in response. Would they write me another letter? Would they send someone to talk with me? What is the policy on this? If it depends on diocese, I am in the Franklin Diocese.

As I find some small ambiguity in my case, I do not know how the Catholic Church would answer the last question at all.

Though I think that CCC 1858 - 1859 would apply, as this would be (I believe) a grave matter, I would be performing this in full knowledge that this is against the will of the Catholic Church, and with unimpaired consent. If I remain unrepentant unto death, the Catholic Church it would seem would consider me likely condemned to hell.

But I would like to know if others agree, and if others could answer the unanswered questions, and more completely answer the ones that I have begun to answer.

Thank you.

Why all the ceremony? Just walk out. The door is open.

 

[noma]

Why all the ceremony? Just walk out. The door is open.

You mean, I don’t need to write a letter to the Bishop? I don’t need to perform any rite, or they don’t?

For an institution with so many well-recorded rules, this seems almost strange.

I just stop attending catholic mass? I’ve already done that, and started attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and started studying Orthodox Theology…

So what you’re saying is… I don’t have to do anything else?

 

[mercygate]

You mean, I don’t need to write a letter to the Bishop? I don’t need to perform any rite, or they don’t?

For an institution with so many well-recorded rules, this seems almost strange.

I just stop attending catholic mass? I’ve already done that, and started attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and started studying Orthodox Theology…

So what you’re saying is… I don’t have to do anything else?

Not attending Mass. Rejecting Catholic theology. Yup.

Frankly, from what you have said on other threads, you had already thumbed your nose at the Church long before you stopped going to Mass. You have cut your tether.

Of course, if you change your mind, we’ll have a robe, a ring, a pair of sandals and a fatted calf ready for you. But for now, you’re out. What do you want? An item on the six o’clock news?

 

[noma]

Not attending Mass. Rejecting Catholic theology. Yup.

Frankly, from what you have said on other threads, you had already thumbed your nose at the Church long before you stopped going to Mass. You have cut your tether.

Of course, if you change your mind, we’ll have a robe, a ring, a pair of sandals and a fatted calf ready for you. But for now, you’re out. What do you want? An item on the six o’clock news?

Nope. That’s it. I’m pretty much satisfied.

The CNN item would be very cool, though, if it could be arranged. It would break down into a boring… “well… I thunk der was more ter it… an’ uh left wittout knowrin it…”

I am curious, however, does Rome see me as a schismatic, heretic, or both, given the description of what I have done?

(mmmm… fatted calf…)

 

[kleary]

I am curious, however, does Rome see me as a schismatic, heretic, or both, given the description of what I have done?
(mmmm… fatted calf…)

Well… since you are becoming “Orthodox” you are officially excommunicated Ipso-Facto by your public statements.

Now in order to be “Orthodox” you have to believe in all they teach- which basically is identical to what the Catholic Church teaches with the exception of the issue of the authority of the Bishop of Rome over their churches.

So I believe that if you further discuss things with the Orthodox Church they probably would tell you you are not even in line with their teachings on many things.

Ken

 

[LilyM]

You mean, I don’t need to write a letter to the Bishop? I don’t need to perform any rite, or they don’t?

For an institution with so many well-recorded rules, this seems almost strange.

I just stop attending catholic mass? I’ve already done that, and started attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and started studying Orthodox Theology…

So what you’re saying is… I don’t have to do anything else?

If you’re formally enrolled or registered in a Catholic parish at all (eg if they send you envelopes to make financial contributions or some such) you need to inform that parish of your decision. Apart from that there’s no paperwork.

The flip side of this is that it’s equally easy to return to the motherly bosom of the Church. As simple as going to confession and stating that you’ve joined (and left!) a schismatic church (and any other sins you may have committed in the meantime of course).

Sad to say, no literal fatted calf if you return. Although of course the angels of heaven will be rejoicing more over you if you do than over 99 just people who don’t need to repent :angel1:

You’re in my prayers - may God guide and protect you no matter where your faith journey takes you

 

[kleary]

A few questions:

First, how does one go about formally denouncing the Catholic Church?

What, if anything, does the Catholic Church do in response?

Would I be a schismatic?

Since I would know what the Catholic Church teaches, and with full knowledge and freedom of will deny it, what implications does this have for my soul, according to Catholic teaching?

Thank you.

The Code of Canon Law states “Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” (Canon 751)

But it also states: “The canons of this Code concern only the latin Church.” (Canon 1)

So by the Code of Canon Law, it seems as though no penalty can be assessed justly to me, as I would be outside the latin Church.

If this does not apply, it appears that I am a schismatic, for I would be withdrawing from both submission to the Supreme Pontiff and from communion with members of the Catholic Church subject to him.

It also seems that I am a heretic, for I reject that he has any legislative authority, and this authority, the Roman Catholic Church claims, is a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. As I deny this, it seems as though I am also a heretic.

I am certainly not apostate.

I cannot seem to find any documentation that suggests how I should formally leave the Catholic Church. But I have written to my Bishop asking for more information. I want to make sure I separate in a way most convenient to the Catholic Church and myself.

I have no idea what the administrative offices of the Catholic Church would do in response. Would they write me another letter? Would they send someone to talk with me? What is the policy on this? If it depends on diocese, I am in the Franklin Diocese.

As I find some small ambiguity in my case, I do not know how the Catholic Church would answer the last question at all.

Though I think that CCC 1858 - 1859 would apply, as this would be (I believe) a grave matter, I would be performing this in full knowledge that this is against the will of the Catholic Church, and with unimpaired consent. If I remain unrepentant unto death, the Catholic Church it would seem would consider me likely condemned to hell.

But I would like to know if others agree, and if others could answer the unanswered questions, and more completely answer the ones that I have begun to answer.

Thank you.

You would have to give a list of what Catholic Doctrines you firmly in your heart do not believe in order to answer many questions. Someone already searched the forums to give an answer.

The Catholic Church condemns no one to Hell. Only God can do that. We only pray “after your head stops spinning you return” [St. Thomas Moore]. Maybe you will learn much from the Orthodox, that an average Catholic in the pew has missed since the imposition of the Novus Ordo Mass… like a greater sense of the sacred in the Liturgy. (you can also find locations for the Tridentine Mass at ecclesiadei.org)

Anyway you are excommunicated ipso facto for denial of the authority of the Roman Pontiff. You must go to confession for this in order to be re-admitted to Holy Communion. And to wilfully deny it… I caution you- I seriously caution you… you have quoted correctly the teaching of the Church.

Ken

Ken

 

[noma]

So I believe that if you further discuss things with the Orthodox Church they probably would tell you you are not even in line with their teachings on many things.

This may very-well be the case. And that in part is why I am also looking into the Anglican/Episcopal and Lutheran churches.

 

[Seeks_God]

This may very-well be the case. And that in part is why I am also looking into the Anglican/Episcopal and Lutheran churches.

Are you window shopping? Love is about submission; so, to love God, you have to submit to Him. I think we all have some things we like/dislike about the Church, but part of demonstrating our love is to put aside what you and I think is the Truth and accept the Truth as Jesus gave to Peter…

Don’t you think?

SG

 

[noma]

Are you window shopping? Love is about submission; so, to love God, you have to submit to Him. I think we all have some things we like/dislike about the Church, but part of demonstrating our love is to put aside what you and I think is the Truth and accept the Truth as Jesus gave to Peter…

Don’t you think?

SG

I think that is a very good point. I am not looking for where I want to go. I am looking for where Christ wants me to be. Thus far, I think He is leading me toward the Orthodox Church. But I will rely on Him and His guidance.

 

[RPConover]

If you go anywhere, go to Orthodoxy, unless you’re into heresy as well as a schism… What about the authority of the Pope bothers you so much as to make you want to leave?

If you’re even considering the Anglican and Lutheran churches is it even Orthodoxy that you’re drawn to or just an “authority-free zone”?

 

[noma]

What about the authority of the Pope bothers you so much as to make you want to leave?

I don’t think anyone was meant to be infallible. Rather, I think that, since the power comes from the Holy Spirit, all real authority for doctrine and dogma should be placed with Him. Resultantly, I think that the Holy Spirit has given authoritative teaching (as it must) for the first seven ecumenical councils, and I have complete faith in these.

I don’t think any of the patriarchs was supposed to have authority over any other, as that would be a misunderstanding of where authority comes from, and in whom it is vested.

Magisterial teachings I disagree with are the immaculate conception. I believe in the Theotokos, Mary being more honorable than the cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim, and would not sit well with a Church that does not honor the mother of Her Lord. But I do not believe she had the guilt of sin, but neither do I believe any of us do, and since she did grow old and die, she was as much affected by the consequences of original sin as much as any of us.

I do not like dogmatically defining every little thing (when exactly the miracle of Eucharist occurs, transubstantiation, that there is a “real and not just spiritual” change), and trying to control all ceremony (redefining calendars, changing words in the Creed, declaring new holidays without consent from the other Church Patriarchs).

Because I believe in Catholicity (I believe in the importance of unity), I stayed with the Catholic Church. But when I found out that Vatican II (among other places that I should believe infallible teaching) teaches that even the ordinary magisterium should be held to such authority and honor as to be almost effectively infallible itself, I could no longer stomach it.

We had an issue also with Artificial Contraception, and the Catholic opinion that it is always wrong. To make sure that this issue is not the major deciding factor in my conversion (and hopefully my wife’s conversion, as she has more fondness for the Eastern faith), we have stopped practicing contraception. But I still believe it is a mistake to declare it as part of the deposit of faith and morals that contraception be intrinsically sinful (even if this is true).

I hope this gives insight into some of my issues with the Roman Catholic Church.

But this discussion would probably be best made in an Eastern Orthodox Forum.

 

[danielsgram]

You mean, I don’t need to write a letter to the Bishop? I don’t need to perform any rite, or they don’t?

I have read only down to where you posted above so you may have received your answer however: I left the Church for over 10 years. I notified no authority. I had put my soul in jeopardy of hell fire. You are about to do the same. Why on earth would you do that to yourself?

Donna

 

[noma]

I have read only down to where you posted above so you may have received your answer however: I left the Church for over 10 years. I notified no authority. I had put my soul in jeopardy of hell fire. You are about to do the same. Why on earth would you do that to yourself?

Though I believe that the Catholic Church affords a beautiful unity, and unity in what is much of the Truth, I think there are places where it is lacking.

Resultantly, in working out my salvation “in fear and trembling”, I find it more healthy for my soul to do so in Orthodoxy. Or this, at least, I now believe.

 

[DesertBrother]

I don’t think anyone was meant to be infallible. Rather, I think that, since the power comes from the Holy Spirit, all real authority for doctrine and dogma should be placed with Him.

You’re in my prayers as well.

Just to make sure you know, infallibility simply means that when the pope declares official dogma, he’s infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS the authority speaking, not the man with the hat.

The Holy Spirit acts THROUGH the pope when declaring a dogmatic truth, and in this specific situation only. The pope has exercised the infallibility of his office twice in the history of the Church. The pope doesn’t just make up a dogma that strikes his fancy. If he did, God would strike him dead before letting him declare it dogma.

The proper understanding of the papacy is that he is “the servant of the servants of God.” If the heirarchy of the Church was made into a diagram, it would be an upside down triangle with the pope at the very bottom as the servant of all.

May Jesus Christ guide your path.

 

[danielsgram]

Though I believe that the Catholic Church affords a beautiful unity, and unity in what is much of the Truth, I think there are places where it is lacking.

Resultantly, in working out my salvation “in fear and trembling”, I find it more healthy for my soul to do so in Orthodoxy. Or this, at least, I now believe.

In all candor I am willing to bet that there is more to your wanting to leave the Catholic Church than what you are telling us. BTW Orthodoxy is in material heresy.

Donna

 

[noma]

In all candor I am willing to bet that there is more to your wanting to leave the Catholic Church than what you are telling us. BTW Orthodoxy is in material heresy.

Donna

You are absolutely right. “The rest” involves personal details about my sponsor in RCIA (who is now Greek Orthodox), and about my Spiritual Director (who is a Byzantine Catholic).

As these are mostly personal, relating only to me, I don’t think it appropriate to bring them up here. Though maybe, if you would like to know more we can discuss it in private messages.

I was mostly curious about whether I would be considered a heretic or a schismatic, or both, or neither, according to the opinion of this forum, and the codes of canon law quoted above.

I will be happy to provide any information that would help people determine what the Roman Catholic Church sees me as. And to justify my reasons for leaving (ultimately so that, if I become Orthodox, I can give those reasons to others who ask, Protestant or Roman Catholic).

And thank you for your concern and candor.