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noma
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What if the wife doesn’t put away the husband? What if the Church declares the divorce, so effectively Christ through the Holy Spirit, is putting away the husband?
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Mommyof02green
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ewtn.com:
It is my understanding that because it was not define a Catholic is free to believe that Mary died and then was assumed. It is my understanding that because it was not define a Catholic may believe that Mary was just assumed “at the end of her Earthly life”.
So what you believe is just fine with the Catholic Church.
catholic.com:
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DesertBrother
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Then she just commits ordinary adultery.
THe Church never declares a divorce. It can declare annulments, which state that the marriage never happened in the first place. Annulments state that the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony was rendered invalid. In the same way that someone who goes to Confession and has no intention of stopping the particular sin he admits, renders the Sacrament of Penance invalid. His absolution never happened because of his utter lack of sincerity. The same with the Eucharist:
“For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.” 1Cor. 11:29
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noma
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That I believe Mary was affected by the original sin like everyone else from the moment of conception, though in her life she committed no actual sins, and that God has by His Grace made her a pure tabernacle for the Light of the World dwelling within Her? This is acceptable?
If one can accept this, rejecting the immaculate conception because of a difference in theology, would that not then imply that the immaculate conception is in fact a matter of theology, and not dogma? Would that then not contradict what the Pope declared it to be?
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noma
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Except that I believe it has. The Orthodox Church being Christ’s True Church (I assume this initially), has declared divorce, and will until the third marriage.
This seems both the prerogative and action of the Orthodox Catholic Church.
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DesertBrother
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Mommyof02green
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Okay…I was a little confused on what you rejected.
Seeing your original statement also talked about how you believed that Mary died before she was assumed into Heaven.I thought you were rejecting the ASSUMITION, because I thought what I was reading that in order to accept the ASSUMTION a Catholic has to believe that Mary never died…that she was just assumed.
However I see now on your follow up that it is NOT the ASSUMTION that you have issues with it’s the Immaculate Conception. Thanks for the clarification!
The Immaculate Conception is a matter of Dogma…so that is a problem. (Not accepting it and being Catholic) Sorry I misunderstood the issue. Mea Culpa.
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noma
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No worries at all.
And, for the record, I do accept the assumption of Our Most Holy Mary, Mother of God.
But I’m not sure if this should be dogmatically declared.
And, for the record, I do accept the assumption of Our Most Holy Mary, Mother of God.
But I’m not sure if this should be dogmatically declared.
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Mommyof02green
Guest
The only question I have is how can something (or in this case someone) be a “pure tabernacle” when it (she) is affected with (original) sin?
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noma
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Because I don’t think the consiquences of original sin affect purity.
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Mommyof02green
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okay, so what does Original sin do? What is it affect?
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noma
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The chief effect of original sin is death.
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scylla
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Jesus died. Did He have original sin?
You remind me of me when I was being asked questions of what I really believed and I really didn’t believe.
People would mention the name Jesus and I would feel ill, it would bother me.
Your concience must be bothering you if you are considering leaving the Catholic faith as no one can do so with a clear concience, if they understand it.
Papal Infallibility is necessary if truth matters and that it doesn’t contradict itself. If you would like to discuss Papal Infallibility I would be happy to as I have had it explained to me, so that I realize that to deny it, is to deny God and truth.
Don’t leave the Church unless you are 100% sure that the Orthodox faith is the one true unified Church founded by Jesus for our Salvation.
If you do so not believing that then you are knowingly placing yourself above God as deciding that truth doesn’t really matter for salvation and I would be very careful.
I say all these things in love as this is the most important thing you can do in life, follow God or yourself.
Follow God is to submit even when you don’t like it, follow yourself is to seek what you desire above what is submission.
There will be people in Hell as Jesus stated it and they will suffer eternal fire.
Feel free to check out the link here, do people really deny the words of Jesus?
catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp
Are they infallible when they do so?
Or could they be wrong when they say that you could get out of hell?
In Christ
Scylla
You remind me of me when I was being asked questions of what I really believed and I really didn’t believe.
People would mention the name Jesus and I would feel ill, it would bother me.
Your concience must be bothering you if you are considering leaving the Catholic faith as no one can do so with a clear concience, if they understand it.
Papal Infallibility is necessary if truth matters and that it doesn’t contradict itself. If you would like to discuss Papal Infallibility I would be happy to as I have had it explained to me, so that I realize that to deny it, is to deny God and truth.
Don’t leave the Church unless you are 100% sure that the Orthodox faith is the one true unified Church founded by Jesus for our Salvation.
If you do so not believing that then you are knowingly placing yourself above God as deciding that truth doesn’t really matter for salvation and I would be very careful.
I say all these things in love as this is the most important thing you can do in life, follow God or yourself.
Follow God is to submit even when you don’t like it, follow yourself is to seek what you desire above what is submission.
There will be people in Hell as Jesus stated it and they will suffer eternal fire.
Feel free to check out the link here, do people really deny the words of Jesus?
catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp
Are they infallible when they do so?
Or could they be wrong when they say that you could get out of hell?
In Christ
Scylla
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noma
Guest
An excellent question. I believe that He died carrying with Him all the sins of the world. He died not because of the consequences of his sin (for he had none), but for the consequences of our sin.
Another possible cause for my sickness.
I would very much like this. I am not ready to discuss this in an open forum in detail, but if you wish to PM me, we can talk about papal infallibility.
I have never in my life been 100% sure of anything except that that I am not 100% sure about anything.
If I had certainty, there would be no reason for faith. One would simply conduct a proof of all the Christian principles, and everyone would believe. They may not follow, but they would have to accept. To understand and deny it would be like accepting square circles.
And as to the link about hell, I find much saying that it is terrible, but nothing that would require people to be there eternally.
If Christ came to save the world, then it would be possible that Christ would save the whole world. And so it would be possible that no one would be in hell forever.
Thank you for your loving responses. I will certainly consider what you have to say (and also, hopefully, what you happen to PM).
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Santos
Guest
Our Blessed Mother, She is Immaculate because she never was stained by actual sin or original sin.
Scripture tells us that Christ is “the firstborn of all creatures” (Col 1:15). If the firstborn creature is the Word become flesh, then Mary who would be the means of the Incarnation must also have been present in the “divine thought” before every other creature (before man). From this stems Mary’s unique relationship with the Holy Trinity.
God places Mary “opposite” of Adam’s sin in which death entered the world, making her an enemy of Satan from the original announcment of Salvation: “I will put enmity between you and the woman” (Gen 3:15).
If Mary shared in the sin of Adam, she would share in the same death befallen Adam because of this sin, thus becoming victim to Satan. But this is not so, for God-willed enmity between Satan (sin, death) and Mary (Gen 3:15).
Other supporting scripture that show Mary saved from sin: Mary is saved from the ancient serpent (Rev 12). This is opposite to Eve who was seduced by the ancient serpent (Gn 3, 1-6).
Mary is the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 25:11-21) made to hold the living Word of God: a holy tabernacle made not of the purest gold, but of the purest flesh.
She is Immaculate because she never was stained by actual sin or original sin; that is, she never gave in to Satan.
Why would Christ create his mother stained with sin? Was it not He who gave to us all mothers so beautiful? How much more beautiful then His own mother? Nobody will ever love his Mother more then Him and He has proven it. Saved without sin.
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noma
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I love my mother. If I could have caused her to be conceived without sin, I sure would have.
And God would have, had it ever been an issue.
Like all of us, Mary does not carry with her the guilt of original sin. None of us are responsible, morally, for the sins of Adam. It would be unjust of God to judge us based on the sins of another.
Rather, I see God not as Judge in this case, but as healer.
Through Adam’s sin, we are all given a sickness that results in death.
That Christ was to die is true, but not because He was fully man and men were made to die. For, though He was fully man, men were not made to die, but rather through sin came death.
Christ was to die for the sins of the world.
So Mary, like all of us except Christ, must have borne the consequences of original sin, else she couldn’t have died (or unless she also was, in herself and apart from Christ, redeeming sin).
But that does not detract from her holiness. Christ affected her for her entire life, with the gifts of grace to make her righteous, and by that gift and with her cooperating will in faith, she did not sin once. She was holy.
More honorable than the cherubiym. More glorious beyond compare than the seraphiym.
She is our most holy Theotokos, Ark of the Covenant, declared beyond all the Saints and angels twice holy, so that Immanuel, God with us, the thrice holy, could dwell within her, so that she may bear him.
Henceforth all generations shall call her blessed, and full of grace.
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Randy_Carson
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You’ve heard them before, but these verses are worth repeating side by side in response to your statement above:“And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:20)“Always…to the end”. Not just for the first seven councils.
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
The Church speaks for Christ.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:18-19)Peter alone is the head of the Church - the holder of the “keys”.
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, **“Feed my sheep. **I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, **“Follow me!”**Jesus gave Peter the keys, said whoever listens to him (and the other Apostles) listens to Christ Himself, and gave responsibility for the flock to Peter. Jesus, the Good Shepherd gave His crook to Peter just as He as King had given His steward, Peter, the keys. Hard to see how the imagery could be any plainer than that.
The early Church Fathers themselves would disagree with you, however. Perhaps reading a few quotes from them will change your mind:
Clement of Alexandria
“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]” (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).
Tertullian
“For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]” (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).
“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church” (*Modesty *21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).
The Letter of Clement to James
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).
There are others, of course. I doubt your Orthodox friends will encourage you to pursue these writings too much. :nope:
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noma
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I think it is a very closed view, assuming that most Orthodox know this supposed “truth” but refuse to look at it.
Orthodox aren’t that way, Protestants aren’t that way, Muslims aren’t that way, Catholics aren’t that way.
And to suggest otherwise necessarily sets up a strawman, and also devalues the genuineness of the person practicing their faith.
Say that it’s wrong, by all means! Say that these are lies from hell, if you so believe. But, for the sake of your own credibility, do not say that those who accept what they do, do so often because they knowingly deny and refuse to look at Truth, that many hide things.
You should accept that your position is true, and may accept that it is certainly and totally true, but for the sake of charity, do not say that all other positions are false to the point of being inconsistent.
This may be true for some. But I cannot believe it is true of my mentor, of the other orthodox I know, and I know this is not true for me.
The situation is certainly not that simple. 931 posts can be attributed to the complexity, and the level of debate this takes.
“no-one sets himself up as bishop of bishops” - St. Cyprian
"“But you say the church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike”. - St. Jerome
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Randy_Carson
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You did not really address the issue. What do these verses of scripture tell you about Peter, the Church and the Papacy?
Noma, think! Who has the keys?!?
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Randy_Carson
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What did St. Jerome actually believe?
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division.” St. Jerome (“Against Jovinian,” c. 393 A.D.)
“I think it is my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church (Rome) whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ.” St. Jerome (“Letter 15,” 396 A.D.)
“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none, but the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails.” *St. Jerome (“Letter 15,” 396 A.D.) *
What say you, Noma?
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division.” St. Jerome (“Against Jovinian,” c. 393 A.D.)
“I think it is my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church (Rome) whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ.” St. Jerome (“Letter 15,” 396 A.D.)
“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none, but the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails.” *St. Jerome (“Letter 15,” 396 A.D.) *
What say you, Noma?
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