I think we may be operating with different definitions of awareness. A person can be anti-abortion in opinion, but be unaware of the infinite value of the unborn child. That said, while awareness is growing, it is growing slowly. I’m hoping that one reason that the abortion rate is dropping is the increased awareness about the humanity of the unborn child.
I also hope my children will live in a world where the State and society will no longer accept the intentional killing of an unborn child. Unfortunately, abortionists are not going to give up without doing anything. They feel that, if anyone says that abortion kills innocent human lives and tries to stop it, women are being deprived of one of their fundamental rights by some bigots.
Death row supervision would not exist if we abolished the death penalty. There is supermax, but there’s a big difference between being on death row and being in the general population.
+1 That’s why I oppose abolishing of the death penalty; such a classification would likely not exist.
Super max prisons already have a high degree of security. It needn’t be classed as “death row” style security. Death row is a US concept where people are locked up for 20 or more years under a death sentence and where purpose built execution rooms with big glass viewing windows and tiered seating platforms where interested parties can view someone die. To non US citizens that seems so macabre and unfitting for a civilised justice system. I suspect that system was developed to try and sanitise capital punishment rather than abolish it, but the end result is still an unusually cruel process.Emeraldlady:
Do you propose maintaining a “death row” style surveillance if capital punishment is abolished? I agree that would be wise but would we really create a “he who would have been executed” class of prisoner?
It’s not a new experiment though. That’s how every other western country in the world does it. Especially dangerous prisoners are help in especially secure environments.Emeraldlady:
Death row supervision would not exist if we abolished the death penalty. There is supermax, but there’s a big difference between being on death row and being in the general population.
No, actually I am suggesting that many people in general population who had been convicted of murder should be in a death row environment because of that close monitoring and isolation from the general population. This would reduce or completely eliminate the need to actually execute the prisoners.
Then again, maybe not…
Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? (Pope St. Innocent I)
That we enjoy free will clearly does not mean Jesus is OK with all of our choices. That Rome abused the right to employ capital punishment doesn’t mean they did not have a legitimate right to use it.
Paradoxically, those who oppose capital punishment on these grounds are assuming the state has a sort of totalitarian capacity which it does not in fact possess, a power to frustrate the whole of one’s existence. Since a death imposed by one man on another can remove neither the latter’s moral goal nor his human worth, it is still more incapable of preventing the operation of God’s justice, which sits in judgment on all our adjudications. (Romano Amerio, 1985)
This shows a basic misunderstanding of the “order” that has been transgressed and that needs to be restored, and it is primarily neither the disorder within the criminal nor the hurt to the individuals most deeply impacted by the crime. It is to God and to society that retribution is owed.
Even you recognize that forgiveness does not eliminate the need for punishment (even for those who have repented), and justice requires that the severity of that punishment be commensurate with the severity of the crime.
Perhaps, but the right to apply capital punishment is based on natural law (scripture, sacred tradition, and pretty much everything the church uses to define her doctrines).
prodpinnc.blogspot.com
Again, we go back to the purpose of “having something owed”. What is the purpose of the debt itself, of there being a debt?
Again, the underlying purpose of all punishment and justice is grounded in God’s love.
The purpose of justice is order for the benefit of mankind. What does the death penalty have to do with God’s love/benefit for the person being executed?
If my memory serves me, you are not a Catholic and are not speaking for the Church on this matter.
That he is not Catholic is irrelevant. What matters for him is what matters for all of us: are our comments accurate?
Ignore for the moment the particular topic, and think of this in more general terms. I think the significance of my concern will be apparent.
We are fighting for the ordinary Magisterium and for the Church in general. If people mistakenly believe a 2,000 year old teaching can be reversed and that we are free to contradict both Scripture and Tradition, well then the whole “Catholic” thing loses its seriousness - and “what’s the point?” is rightly the proper response.
How on earth is it credible for a non Catholic to make a statement regarding our Church teaching such as this…Emeraldlady:
That he is not Catholic is irrelevant. What matters for him is what matters for all of us: are our comments accurate?
Are you thinking that going against current teaching on the death penalty is “defending the Church”?
Unfortunately there’s a faction of US Catholics who actually think they are the whole Church. That they alone have the right to dictate for the entire world of Catholics. They don’t even seem aware that the death penalty has been abolished all over the world lead by Catholic and other Christians sense of Christian justice. The whole issue of Church teaching ‘changing’ has never been an issue. It’s a ridiculous position to claim such superiority as if they are a premium leadership in Catholicism. Good heavens above. It’s embarrassing.RCIAGraduate:
We are fighting for the ordinary Magisterium and for the Church in general. If people mistakenly believe a 2,000 year old teaching can be reversed and that we are free to contradict both Scripture and Tradition, well then the whole “Catholic” thing loses its seriousness - and “what’s the point?” is rightly the proper response.
Truth is not limited to Catholics, and what the church teaches can be found on line by anyone who searches for it.
Well, those statements are prudential judgments and it is surely not unreasonable to disagree with them.
I think that your interpretation of what is going on would be extremely damaging to the church if it was true, which is a good reason in itself to doubt it. You don’t seem to realize that what you claim to be “current teaching” is your understanding of it, and that is what I am challenging.
No, no special access, just access to the internet and a willingness to read what they have written.
I really thought that achieving eternal salvation would be considered a fairly significant benefit. If that doesn’t qualify it’s hard to imagine what would.
My “interpretation” is exactly what is stated, that the executions are not admissible. Are you thinking I am saying something else?
If you are claiming to know what the doctors/fathers/saints of the Church, now in heaven, are thinking at this moment you are claiming special access. What they said back then was hundreds of years ago, in a completely different context. You could argue that the context is not much different, but you cannot claim to know what those saints would say today.
What punishment does is redress the disorder in the sinner. If a person suffers in prison, he readjusts his priorities, he has time to ponder his well-being, repent of his disorder, develop his conscience, etc. This (hopefully) benefits the prisoner when he has repented, and the punishment has helped him make his decision. This punishment, in effect, is God’s benefit to the person being punished. Note: In modern times, we have found that restorative, not retributive, justice is much more effective. Are you familiar with restorative justice?Ender, please, the purpose of justice is order for the benefit of mankind . What does the death penalty have to do with God’s love/benefit for the person being executed? Your previous answer about salvation did not address my question.
Ender: