Church teaching on Islam

[rinnie]

The Pope never said that EVERYTHING he says is infallible. The Pope rarely uses his infallibility and always only in relation to faith and morals. The Pope is a man who can make mistakes.

However, having said that, we are so blessed with our Popes of many years now. Our present Pope is extraordinarily intellectual and well educated. He is a true educator and an amazing diplomat. God bless him.

Who said that? I said when he teaches us he has the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach. God promised us that.

But who said he can never make mistakes or have sin, I know he is human, never said he is not.

But when he teaches he has authority from God to do so.

Christ did not leave us orphans He made it possible for hearers to recognize that these Chosen ones did speak for him. God;s Son continues to speak to us through those he chooses to send in his name. Jn 15:16

They must not be self-appointed they must be called in his name Jer 23:13-28

He called them and anointed them with the Holy Spirit and theyhave the authoirty when teach in matters of faith and morals.

Is the Pope teaching us on matters of Faith and morals. Can he Yes.

What assurance do I have? John14:16 He assured the Pope and Biships the assistance of the Holy Spirit who would guard them in speaking.

Now do I believe this. Yes I do.

It was my Promise from God that the Holy Spirit would guard them in speaking.

Now when the Pope teaches is he guarded by the Holy Spirit in speaking. God said so.

 

[rinnie]

Wow!

Teaches Mickey. Big difference. If he gives his opinion he is not teaching is he?

If he is teaching he is teaching in Gods name. The Vatican Council 11 is not an Opinion. It is a teaching, And if is protected by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BenedictFTW]

Who said that?

You.

The Pope only claims infallibility in matters of faith and morals.

"Papal infallibility was defined by Vatican I in 1870, 16 years after Pope Pius IX had solemnly declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Various people have gone backwards from 1870 and sometimes inaccurately labeled various statements as infallible.

The pope’s infallibility in his extraordinary magisterium (teaching role) has been used only once since 1870—when Pope Pius XII solemnly defined in 1950 that belief in Mary’s Assumption is part of Catholic faith. Belief in that teaching had long been reflected in the Church’s liturgy."

We must weigh what we say carefully. Of course, we all make mistakes.

 

[jam070406]

Who said that? I said when he teaches us he has the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach. God promised us that.

But who said he can never make mistakes or have sin, I know he is human, never said he is not.

But when he teaches he has authority from God to do so.

Christ did not leave us orphans He made it possible for hearers to recognize that these Chosen ones did speak for him. God;s Son continues to speak to us through those he chooses to send in his name. Jn 15:16

They must not be self-appointed they must be called in his name Jer 23:13-28

He called them and anointed them with the Holy Spirit and theyhave the authoirty when teach in matters of faith and morals.

Is the Pope teaching us on matters of Faith and morals. Can he Yes.

What assurance do I have? John14:16 He assured the Pope and Biships the assistance of the Holy Spirit who would guard them in speaking.

Now do I believe this. Yes I do.

It was my Promise from God that the Holy Spirit would guard them in speaking.

Now when the Pope teaches is he guarded by the Holy Spirit in speaking. God said so.

I’d like to see the Teaching that says he is guarded by the Holy Spirit when he speaks.
I know of the one that is a limited capacity, with certain provisions, while speaking Ex Cathedra.

 

[catharina]

Ah… speaking Truth by saying they reject the Trinity is ostracizing Muslims.

Your version of truth requires no capital T.
Your version of “truth” insists that Moslems
do not worship the one true God. Yet they do.
The Church teaches us that. Do Moslems have
full knowledge of God. No. So what?

Best for some that they are “off there and at
odds” with God. Who dares say that? Can
you read their souls? I trust what the Church teaches,
not what YOU pretend to teach. Your “truth” is in error.

 

[rinnie]

The Pope never said that EVERYTHING he says is infallible. The Pope rarely uses his infallibility and always only in relation to faith and morals. The Pope is a man who can make mistakes.

However, having said that, we are so blessed with our Popes of many years now. Our present Pope is extraordinarily intellectual and well educated. He is a true educator and an amazing diplomat. God bless him.

So then you are saying that when he teaches us on faith and morals in the ordinary magisteruum of the Church we do not have to accept it as infallible?

 

[catharina]

I hope you don’t think that I am “re-interpreting,” catharina. I am simply trying to communicate some vigilance here. Like many other people, I have been watching carefully since 9-11 the public reaction and response to Islam as a movement, both in theological and in secular circles. Terrorism is not theology, absolutely! Nevertheless, the goals of Islam are imbedded in the Qu’ran; the interesting thing is that there appears to be far more widespread ignorance of practicing Muslims, with regard to their faith, than there is of Catholics regarding their own. (Yes, that’s possible. ) To me, that was the most frightening take-away of the Franciscan University Presents episode 163.

I do not believe that Catholics are free to interpret JP2’s remarks as indicating any equality between the theology of Islam and theology of Catholicism. The two faiths are fundamentally different. That is a different matter than appreciating that the all-merciful God receives prayers from all believers with generosity and without regard to individual errors in understanding.

I invite everyone to watch or record the EWTN episode which will be re-broadcast in about 20 minutes from now.

Yet, as you know, Elizabeth, the Church holds
THREE religions as monotheistic, i.e., worhipping
ONE GOD. Those are Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

I learned that in grammar school in the early 1950s -
in Religion classes. Nothing will dissuade me from that truth.
Many on this thread seem to imagine THEY know better than the Church.

NOPE!

BTW, nice to see you, Elizabeth!

 

[rinnie]

You.

The Pope only claims infallibility in matters of faith and morals.

"Papal infallibility was defined by Vatican I in 1870, 16 years after Pope Pius IX had solemnly declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Various people have gone backwards from 1870 and sometimes inaccurately labeled various statements as infallible.

The pope’s infallibility in his extraordinary magisterium (teaching role) has been used only once since 1870—when Pope Pius XII solemnly defined in 1950 that belief in Mary’s Assumption is part of Catholic faith. Belief in that teaching had long been reflected in the Church’s liturgy."

We must weigh what we say carefully. Of course, we all make mistakes.

That is not what I am saying. I said when we are taught in the Ordinary Magisterium it is presummed to be infallible and it is assumed that the faithful hold that teaching in a difinitive manner.

And the Only reason the Assumption was a extraordinary teaching is because it was challanged.

But if you want to make this on authority of the Pope make another thread. I will be glad to come.

Lets get back to the Thead. Its about what the Church teaches on Muslims worshipping the One true God.

 

[Mickey]

Your version of “truth” insists that Moslems
do not worship the one true God. Yet they do.

That is not possible. They knowingly and consiously reject the one true God…the God of Abraham…the Trinitarian God.

 

[jam070406]

Your version of truth requires no capital T.
Your version of “truth” insists that Moslems
do not worship the one true God. Yet they do.
The Church teaches us that. Do Moslems have
full knowledge of God. No. So what?

Best for some that they are “off there and at
odds” with God. Who dares say that? Can
you read their souls? I trust what the Church teaches,
not what YOU pretend to teach. Your “truth” is in error.

So what??
Lord have mercy!!

Please show me where the Church teaches Muslims worship the one true God, Father Son & Holy Spirit. Thanks.

 

[BenedictFTW]

So then you are saying that when he teaches us on faith and morals in the ordinary magisteruum of the Church we do not have to accept it as infallible?

“Most papal and conciliar teachings pertain to the Church’s ordinary teaching authority (magisterium) and are understood as authentic teachings—but not infallible in the sense of Vatican I’s teaching about infallibility.”(americancatholic.org/messenger/aug2004/Wiseman.asp)

There are two levels of assent to magisterial teachings:

1. the full assent of faith (theological assent, or sacred assent) for infallible magisterial teachings (i.e. formal dogmas).
2. the religious submission of will and intellect (religious assent, or ordinary assent) for non-infallible teachings (doctrines, but not dogmas). (catholicplanet.com/TSM/levels-of-assent.htm)

Pope John Paul II: “With respect to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the Church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will.” (Address to U.S. Bishops, 1988).

 

[catharina]

That is not possible. They knowingly and consiously reject the one true God…the God of Abraham…the Trinitarian God.

You are capable of “knowing” that?
You are able to state, without qualification that Moslems
“knowingly and consiously reject the one true God…the God of Abraham
…the Trinitarian God” really?

Sorry. You CAN"T know that.
Case closed.

 

[catharina]

So what??
Lord have mercy!!

Please show me where the Church teaches Muslims worship the one true God, Father Son & Holy Spirit. Thanks.

Have done so - repeatedly.
Only God is GOD.
There is no other.
All who worship God, worship GOD!

 

[BenedictFTW]

You are capable of “knowing” that?
You are able to state, without qualification that Moslems
“knowingly and consiously reject the one true God…the God of Abraham
…the Trinitarian God” really?

Sorry. You CAN"T know that.
Case closed.

Muslims say so!!!

 

[rinnie]

That is not possible. They knowingly and consiously reject the one true God…the God of Abraham…the Trinitarian God.

How. The Chruch teaches they worship God who is One. How is this God who is one creator of heaven and earth a different God?

They endeavor to submit themeselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan. To whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own.

Please show your proof that the Pope is teaching us a falsehood here. You cannot just say they reject the Trinity. That is a know fact. The Pope states it himself.

He say they do not acknowledge Jesus as God bu venerate him as a prophet. But he also says they worship God especially by the way of prayer and alms-deeds fasting. You said its not possible, the Pope said they do. You accuse them of praying to a false god, The Pope says they pray to the ONE GOD.

You say they worship a God that is false because they cannot worship the ONE GOD the Popes says they do worship God by prayer. So where is your proof that the ONE GOD is a false God.

I asked you earlier show me where the ONE GOD creator of heaven and earth is False.

 

[Mickey]

You are capable of “knowing” that?

Yes. Their Quran states it.

You are able to state, without qualification that Moslems
“knowingly and consiously reject the one true God…the God of Abraham
…the Trinitarian God” really?

Yes. It is in their Quran. They will also tell you this if you ask them.

Sorry. You CAN"T know that.

I don’t have to know it. The Quran states it.

Case closed.

If you say so.

 

[jam070406]

Yet, as you know, Elizabeth, the Church holds
THREE religions as monotheistic, i.e., worhipping
ONE GOD. Those are Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

I learned that in grammar school in the early 1950s -
in Religion classes. Nothing will dissuade me from that truth.
Many on this thread seem to imagine THEY know better than the Church.

NOPE!

BTW, nice to see you, Elizabeth!

No one has disputed this.
It’s when you move past this point that you go off the rails.
And convolute teaching that confuses you.

 

[Mickey]

“Most papal and conciliar teachings pertain to the Church’s ordinary teaching authority (magisterium) and are understood as authentic teachings—but not infallible in the sense of Vatican I’s teaching about infallibility.”(americancatholic.org/messenger/aug2004/Wiseman.asp)

There are two levels of assent to magisterial teachings:

1. the full assent of faith (theological assent, or sacred assent) for infallible magisterial teachings (i.e. formal dogmas).
2. the religious submission of will and intellect (religious assent, or ordinary assent) for non-infallible teachings (doctrines, but not dogmas). (catholicplanet.com/TSM/levels-of-assent.htm)

Pope John Paul II: “With respect to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the Church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will.” (Address to U.S. Bishops, 1988).

That is how I always understood it…but then I am no longer in communion with Rome.

Also…there are many Catholics who think that the CCC is an infallible document.

 

[catharina]

Muslims say so!!!

Ahhh, so glad you clarified this.
Now it’s clear.
You believe Moslems over the teachings of our Holy Catholic Church.

 

[BenedictFTW]

Ahhh, so glad you clarified this.
Now it’s clear.
You believe Moslems over the teachings of our Holy Catholic Church.

Where do you get this from? You seem to believe Muslims believe in the same God you do. They certainly do not believe in my God - the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.