Church teaching on Islam

[jam070406]

1. Going to an Imam is a great idea if you only want to learn what Islam teaches or its history, but a bad one if you are trying to learn what is True about it. You would need to go to the Authority on the Truth for that [the Church]. Imams have no authority in determining what is True.
2. “You can lead a horse to water [explain/teach], but you can’t make it drink [learn/understand].” I had a very good calculas teacher in college. He knew calculas forwards and backwards and was an outstanding teacher. Despite all this, I never learned or understood calculas.

God doesn’t infuse you with grace to be able to know calculas. He does if wish to know the Truth of Him. You can accept or reject.

 

[Kristin234]

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

The Bible tells us that no one can come to the Father but through the Son. How do they worship God if they do not even know the Son? How do they worship something they do not know?

Jesus Himself says since you don’t know who I am you don’t know who my Father is. Sure they know the watered down good prophet Jesus, but Muslims do NOT know who the TRUE and ETERNAL Jesus Christ is.

He also says that if God were your Father you would also love Jesus. Then he goes on to say that those who don’t understand him can’t hear him and that is because their father is NOT God but the devil.

 

[Armyvet007]

God doesn’t infuse you with grace to be able to know calculas. He does if wish to know the Truth of Him. You can accept or reject.

As I stated yesterday, I’m done trying to hold a discussion with you. If I wished to engage in an argument, I would return to the FoxNews boards. You win, good job and good day.

 

[jam070406]

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

The Bible tells us that no one can come to the Father but through the Son. How do they worship God if they do not even know the Son? How do they worship something they do not know?

Jesus Himself says since you don’t know who I am you don’t know who my Father is. Sure they know the watered down good prophet Jesus, but Muslims do NOT know who the TRUE and ETERNAL Jesus Christ is.

He also says that if God were your Father you would also love Jesus. Then he goes on to say that those who don’t understand him can’t hear him and that is because their father is NOT God but the devil.

I agree. It seems so clear cut.
This is Ecumenism run amuck, like a run away freight train that can’t be controlled and is enshrined in doctrine.
It has done nothing to bring Muslims to Jesus and has affirmed their ideas that they do not need to convert.
It has caused confusion, indifferentism, relativism & conflict between Catholics.

 

[jam070406]

As I stated yesterday, I’m done trying to hold a discussion with you. If I wished to engage in an argument, I would return to the FoxNews boards. You win, good job and good day.

Sorry but stating, because the CCC says, while dismissing the entire realm of the Catholic Faith, reason and Tradition is not a sufficient enough answer for me. This is a serious issue for me that doesn’t make sense and has shaken my view in the Church.
I bring up tough counter points and questions that result in insults and people getting mad because they can’t answer.

 

[Mickey]

I would like to read these comments from these post schism saints.

 

[Mickey]

You would need to go to the Authority on the Truth for that [the Church].

Exactly!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

Imams have no authority in determining what is True.

Agreed. But if you want to know what Islam believes…you can hear it from their own lips.

1. “You can lead a horse to water [explain/teach], but you can’t make it drink [learn/understand].” I had a very good calculas teacher in college. He knew calculas forwards and backwards and was an outstanding teacher. Despite all this, I never learned or understood calculas. This doesn’t mean I willfully rejected or denied calculas, it just means I remain ignorant about it.

But you believe calculus to be valid…right? Even though you do not understand it fully.

Musilms do not accept the validity of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Mickey]

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

Yes.

 

[Armyvet007]

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

The Bible tells us that no one can come to the Father but through the Son. How do they worship God if they do not even know the Son? How do they worship something they do not know?

Jesus Himself says since you don’t know who I am you don’t know who my Father is. Sure they know the watered down good prophet Jesus, but Muslims do NOT know who the TRUE and ETERNAL Jesus Christ is.

He also says that if God were your Father you would also love Jesus. Then he goes on to say that those who don’t understand him can’t hear him and that is because their father is NOT God but the devil.

What passages are you taking this from? If it’s from John 8, then I think this isn’t Christ using know as in being ignorant of, but know as in rejecting/denying the Truth [willful ignorance]. The idea that a person is condemned for something they are ignorant of conflicts with the idea that God forgives those who knowingly reject/deny the Truth and repent. [How is ignorance [of both the sin and need to repent] worse then sinning but then repenting?]

 

[Kristin234]

What passages are you taking this from? If it’s from John 8, then I think this isn’t Christ using know as in being ignorant of, but know as in rejecting/denying the Truth [willful ignorance]. The idea that a person is condemned for something they are ignorant of conflicts with the idea that God forgives those who knowingly reject/deny the Truth and repent. [How is ignorance [of both the sin and need to repent] worse then sinning but then repenting?]

Muslims know what Christians believe. They know that we believe that Jesus Christ is 100% human and 100% God. They know that we believe that He is the Son of God. They know that we believe that He was crucified and on the third day resurrected. Their book tells them that we believe all of this and tells them to reject those beliefs. That is not ignorance. If you are going to say that that is ignorance then we might as well say every human being is ignorant and that they are not really rejecting the Truth.

When it comes down to it they are indeed rejecting Jesus Christ. They do not know Him. The Bible is very clear that those who know Him have a father and that is God, and that those who do not know Him also have a father but it is the devil. There is no in between. Either you know Him and you know the Father because of Jesus or you don’t know or worship the True God at all because you do not know Jesus Christ.

 

[Armyvet007]

Agreed. But if you want to know what Islam believes…you can hear it from their own lips.

Yes, but is this belief based on the ignorance of the Truth or the rejection/willful ignorance of it?

But you believe calculus to be valid…right? Even though you do not understand it fully.

Musilms do not accept the validity of the Holy Trinity.

True [the validity part]. On hindsight that was a horrible analogy. I guess the real question is if Muslim refusal to believe the validity of the Holy Trinity is due to ignorance of it [calculas isn’t valid mathematics] or because they reject it [calculas is valid mathematics, I just don’t understand how to do it or like it, therefore I don’t need to understand it/believe it is valid].

 

[Mickey]

Yes, but is this belief based on the ignorance of the Truth or the rejection/willful ignorance of it?

I would say both. I am sure there are those who have not been exposed much to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and they preside in their ignorance. And there are those who understand fully…and willfully/conciously reject it.

 

[rinnie]

There comes a time that you have to know when to say when and let go and Let God.

I believe we have reached that time.

I believe that we as Roman Catholic’s have done everything in our power to show what the Church teaches.

But it is not a question anymore of what our Pope teaches us in our Church, it has become I will not accept what your Pope teaches.

Even Mickey will agree that we have taught the truth of what our Pope teaches. Mickey will say he does not agree with what our Pope teaches, and that is being honest. But he will admit we told the truth, and if not he will show where we misquoted the Pope.

But even Mickey will not say your Pope is not teaching that. He will agree what we have said is exactly what we are taught in Vatican Council 11.

I was told by my Priest that I must learn what the Vatican Council teaches in order to learn my faith. If the Vatican Council does not teach what the RCC teaches what is the purpose of it. It is what our Church teaches.

But we have showed what our Church teaches and what we believe to be true. We submit to our Pope and accept his teaching’s and believe in our heart he is telling us the truth.

If we did not we could not be Roman Catholic.

It is come to a time I believe we have given every single written constitiutions decrees and declarations there are. If I can find anymore I will be back and show them.

But I will not argue anymore on that what I think the Pope teaches, or etc. I know what is being taught to me, and I have the 15 documents of the VCll in my hand.

But this has become not what our Church teaches, it has become I believe your Pope is wrong, or overstepped his authority.

The Pope can teach us with the Bishops or by himself. He is the leader of the sheep. I am his sheep and I will follow his teaching’s.

But I will not sit here and be told my Pope is mistaken or my Pope does not know everything etc. It is not fair to me or others. And it is not what we are taught from God to argue. We sometimes have to shake the sand and walk away.

If I find anymore teachings I will post them. But I will not let myself be drawn into arguing about whether my Pope is right or wrong. I draw the line.

God bless you and keep you and may his light shine upon you.

 

[Armyvet007]

Muslims know what Christians believe. They know that we believe that Jesus Christ is 100% human and 100% God. They know that we believe that He is the Son of God. They know that we believe that He was crucified and on the third day resurrected. Their book tells them that we believe all of this and tells them to reject those beliefs. That is not ignorance. If you are going to say that that is ignorance then we might as well say every human being is ignorant and that they are not really rejecting the Truth.

**Do they? The Quran is full of errors in regards to what Christians believe [one prime example being the Trinity]. Are Muslims guilty of rejecting the Truth of the Trinity because they [like us] reject the Trinity as explained in the Quran [God, Jesus (just a man), and Mary)]? **

When it comes down to it they are indeed rejecting Jesus Christ. They do not know Him. The Bible is very clear that those who know Him have a father and that is God, and that those who do not know Him also have a father but it is the devil. There is no in between. Either you know Him and you know the Father because of Jesus or you don’t know or worship the True God at all because you do not know Jesus Christ.

You can not reject what you do not know.

 

[BenedictFTW]

Some of this controversy is caused by the fact that we Catholics do not insist on what Jesus is teaching US. “We believe in One God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…”

Anyone who believes in this One God believes in the same God as us. However, we seem to give Muslims a pass because they have a different notion of God. Just because they only believe in one god and not multiple gods, we argue, then they must believe in the True God.

Not so, I would argue, because I have asked Muslims about their beliefs. Of course, this is rather subjective, but I am willing to bet that the Muslims I was talking to are hugely representative of their whole creed. They told me that they did not believe in the same God as us; that their Allah was more powerful than the Christian God. They also said that they only believed in some parts of the bible. Whenever, you question them, they will say “We do not believe that”. This was their answer about many subjects taken from the bible. In other words, they choose bits and pieces of the bible to believe in that agrees with their Koran. Any investigation of the Koran will reveal many errors.

The world of Islam is a world where men dictate how women are treated, usually as less human than men; where people are killed if they show signs of converting to Christianity and where freedom of speech could mean your life. In an atmosphere such as this, there is no room for reason. It is a world where people are turned into automatons.

However, our Church has infallibly decided that we must accept that they are beginning the journey towards God. God’s ways are not ours. Pope JPII was aware of the hatred in the Muslim heart towards Christians and the revulsion of Christians for Muslims. He knew that we were the better informed and the more spiritually blessed. From a spiritual perspective, JPII, asked us to reach out to our brothers and sisters caught in the Muslim trap with love.

When JPII said:

“Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.”

“We believe in the same God…” he was not referring to the Muslims as the “We”. He was referring to Abraham and US, Christians. We believe in the same God. He was appealing to Muslims because they profess to believe in Abraham. It was a bridge-building exercise.

I think JPII was misunderstood by many people. Let us pray to Our Blessed Mother to send a legion of angels into our Church and cause a great renewal of the faith. Apart from the Muslim-Christian conflict; what about what is happening in Ireland within our own Church? God give courage to Pope Benedict XVI to defeat all apostacy of our age.

 

[rinnie]

If they worshipped the same one God they would recognize the Trinity. Please provide those quotes.

This is what the RCC teaches.

The Church has a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God who is one living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth who has also spoken to humanity. they endeavor to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to Gods plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own.

Although not RECOGINZING him as GOD the venerate JESUS as a prophet his Virgin Mother they also honor and even at times devoutly invoke.

Further they await the day of judgement and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.

For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and WORSHIP GOD especially by way of prayer alms-deeds and fasting.

I believe the Pope has answered your question as honest and as clear as humanily possible.

You can say this is HIS opinion, or whatever you want. This is the teaching in the VCll that I am bound to as a Roman Catholic.

He has the authority to teach me, and I will accept what he has taught.

So if you want to argue on what the Pope teaches, you must start another thread. I refuse to argue with you. This is not if we agree with what he teaches, it is what does he teach. Unless I have misunderstood the thread.

 

[jam070406]

There comes a time that you have to know when to say when and let go and Let God.

I believe we have reached that time.

I believe that we as Roman Catholic’s have done everything in our power to show what the Church teaches.

But it is not a question anymore of what our Pope teaches us in our Church, it has become I will not accept what your Pope teaches.

Even Mickey will agree that we have taught the truth of what our Pope teaches. Mickey will say he does not agree with what our Pope teaches, and that is being honest. But he will admit we told the truth, and if not he will show where we misquoted the Pope.

But even Mickey will not say your Pope is not teaching that. He will agree what we have said is exactly what we are taught in Vatican Council 11.

I was told by my Priest that I must learn what the Vatican Council teaches in order to learn my faith. If the Vatican Council does not teach what the RCC teaches what is the purpose of it. It is what our Church teaches.

But we have showed what our Church teaches and what we believe to be true. We submit to our Pope and accept his teaching’s and believe in our heart he is telling us the truth.

If we did not we could not be Roman Catholic.

It is come to a time I believe we have given every single written constitiutions decrees and declarations there are. If I can find anymore I will be back and show them.

But I will not argue anymore on that what I think the Pope teaches, or etc. I know what is being taught to me, and I have the 15 documents of the VCll in my hand.

But this has become not what our Church teaches, it has become I believe your Pope is wrong, or overstepped his authority.

The Pope can teach us with the Bishops or by himself. He is the leader of the sheep. I am his sheep and I will follow his teaching’s.

But I will not sit here and be told my Pope is mistaken or my Pope does not know everything etc. It is not fair to me or others. And it is not what we are taught from God to argue. We sometimes have to shake the sand and walk away.

If I find anymore teachings I will post them. But I will not let myself be drawn into arguing about whether my Pope is right or wrong. I draw the line.

God bless you and keep you and may his light shine upon you.

I’ve never said the Pope is mistaken. I have said you read him in one context and I in another. Huge difference. And I resent you implying that you are the good side with the Pope and I am on the bad side against the Pope. I’m not playing your game.
The Pope affirmed Muslims belief in monotheism. This is how I view it.
He did not affirm what you are suggesting, with all the relativistic ramifications and conclusions that cannot be avoided if drawn to their logical conclusion.

 

[jam070406]

This is what the RCC teaches.

The Church has a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God who is one living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth who has also spoken to humanity. they endeavor to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to Gods plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own.

Although not RECOGINZING him as GOD the venerate JESUS as a prophet his Virgin Mother they also honor and even at times devoutly invoke.

Further they await the day of judgement and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.

For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and WORSHIP GOD especially by way of prayer alms-deeds and fasting.

I believe the Pope has answered your question as honest and as clear as humanily possible.

You can say this is HIS opinion, or whatever you want. This is the teaching in the VCll that I am bound to as a Roman Catholic.

He has the authority to teach me, and I will accept what he has taught.

So if you want to argue on what the Pope teaches, you must start another thread. I refuse to argue with you. This is not if we agree with what he teaches, it is what does he teach. Unless I have misunderstood the thread.

This tells me they worship what they think is God with their erroneous views.
Whether they actually do is not stated. But we can draw the conclusion that they do not because they deny the Trinity.

 

[Mickey]

There are certainly more than a few individuals (Catholic, Orthodox, and protestants) who do not subscribe to “the same god” confusion.

 

[jam070406]

He was speaking of the Catholic relationship to Abraham. In an attempt to show that Catholicism, which he practiced and preached, was the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Faith.
He was attempting to drawn them to Jesus, not deny Jesus before a crowd of Muslims.