Church teaching on Islam

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YES!

The Jews aren’t like everyone else. If it was not for the Jews, we would not know God. They revealed God to us! The scripture even says :

“Salvation is from the Jews”

We know that they worship God for it is they who taught the their God, the true God, to us!
 
The prophets can not be used an argument. Simply because they had not the revelation of the Trinity but only of the Father which was acceptable at the time for that was all that they knew. God only judges you on what you know ,and you know this!

The muslims come from a time where the truth had been revealed and yet rejected it!

These are two different cases entirely
Where is it said in their teaching that God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit? From what I have read their book teaches of Jesus as only a prophet, not the Son of God?:confused:
 
I’ve heard that the church’s position that Muslims worship the same God as Christians constitutes a teaching on faith or morals that Catholics must give religious assent to. Is this true and if so, how is it a teaching on faith or morals?
Seems there would have been no need for the cruisades! :knight1:
 
YES!

The Jews aren’t like everyone else. If it was not for the Jews, we would not know God. They revealed God to us! The scripture even says :

“Salvation is from the Jews”

We know that they worship God for it is they who taught the their God, the true God, to us!
Salvation is from Jesus Christ. It is said that by some Jews rejecting Christ and God waiting for them to come back to him, we have more time to come to know him.

But please do not be misled by the statement. Salvation comes from Jesus Christ.
 
YES!

The Jews aren’t like everyone else. If it was not for the Jews, we would not know God. They revealed God to us! The scripture even says :

“Salvation is from the Jews”

We know that they worship God for it is they who taught the their God, the true God, to us!
Jews faithful to God became Christian. There is no longer Jew or gentile, etc.
But this is a whole seperate thread.
 
Exactly. God came as the word made flesh in the Son to save all mankind. God has spoken through many prophets. But there will be no more Prophets. Christ was the last. He will come again in glory, and until then he left us the Church the Pilar of truth, led by the Holy Spirit.

But we are all getting so de-railed.

And we no one has proved that the Muslims have a false god. They have tried to claim if you do not accept Jesus in the Trinity, it makes the one true God false. But have again failed to do so.
 
Exactly. God came as the word made flesh in the Son to save all mankind. God has spoken through many prophets. But there will be no more Prophets. Christ was the last. He will come again in glory, and until then he left us the Church the Pilar of truth, led by the Holy Spirit.

But we are all getting so de-railed.

And we no one has proved that the Muslims have a false god. They have tried to claim if you do not accept Jesus in the Trinity, it makes the one true God false. But have again failed to do so.
Your last paragraph is so incredibly false and misleading, yet you trot it out over and over.
 
The thing is ; We do not get our faith from Islam. Without Islam, Christianity could still exist. Without Judaism, we would not know God. For it is the Jews that showed us God. It is the Jews that brought us the Messiah, and it was from Judaism (Jesus and the apostles) that we came to know the trinity.

Without Judaism, Christianity would not exist. this is why Jews are a special case and must NEVER be confused with anyone else.😛
 
We have been through this countless times. The Trinity is revealed throughout the OT…beginning in Genesis 1:26. I think it is a rather unusual argument to defend muslim worship on the basis of trying to say that the Trinitarian God was not revealed in the OT. 🤷

I will let St Augustine speak to Christ being revealed.

St Augustine**’s reply to Faustus**
You ask me to show what Moses wrote of Christ. Many passages have already been pointed out. But who could point out all? Besides, when any quotation is made, you are ready perversely to try to give the words another meaning;

St Augustine**’s reply to Faustus**
Well, then, O thou full of all subtilty, when the Lord in the Gospel says, “If ye believed Moses, ye would believe me also, for he wrote of me,” there is no occasion for the great perplexity you pretend to be in, or for the alternative of either pronouncing this verse spurious or calling Jesus a liar. The verse is as genuine as its words are true.

St Augustine****
To your own destruction, and to the detriment of the welfare of mankind, you try to weaken the authority of the gospel, by arguing that it cannot be true that Christ said that Moses wrote of Him;

And now the Holy Spirit:

Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (Psalm 50:13)

Number 11:26-30

Now there remained in the camp two of the men, of whom one was called Eldad, and the other Medad, upon whom the spirit rested; for they also had been enrolled, but were not gone forth to the tabernacle. And when they prophesied in the camp, there ran a young man, and told Moses, saying: Eldad and Medad prophesy in the camp. Forthwith Josue the son of Nun, the minister of Moses, and chosen out of many, said: My lord Moses forbid them. But he said: Why hast thou emulation for me? O that all the people might prophesy, and that the Lord would give them his spirit! And Moses returned, with the ancients of Israel, into the camp.

Ex 31:1-3
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Behold, I have called by name Beseleel the son of Uri the son of Hur of the tribe of Juda, And I have filled him with the spirit of God, with wisdom and understanding, and knowledge in all manner of work.

Isaiah 63: 7-10
I will remember the tender mercies of the Lord, the praise of the Lord for all the things that the Lord hath bestowed upon us, and for the multitude of his good things to the house of Israel, which he hath given them according to his kindness, and according to the multitude of his mercies. And he said: Surely they are my people, children that will not deny: so he became their saviour. In all their affliction he was not troubled, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love, and in his mercy he redeemed them, and he carried them and lifted them up all the days of old. But they provoked to wrath, and afflicted the spirit of his Holy One: and he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
None of this shows that the fullness of the Trinity revealed to us in the O.T. The fullness of the Trinity is not revealed to us until Christ. It is Christ who revealed to us God in the 3 persons of the trinity.

If you can show me where it is revealed as God in the 3 persons please show that scripture. It has to be in there if it is revealed.

Why also if the fullness of the Trinity is revealed did Jesus ask the Apostles who he was? And why did Peter say you are the Son of God, IF Abraham revealed this to us, why would Jesus say flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my father in heaven.

Is not Abraham flesh and blood. Why did Jesus say it was not revealed to peter by a human then? Did Peter not know the word of God in the O.T.?
 
YES! God revealed himself to man through the Jews

The Jews are from where we get our salvation, through Jesus, a Jewish man from the tribe of Judah and high priest in the order of Melchizedek!

Jesus was the one who said salvation was from the Jews!

This statement is true to the letter! For without the Jews, there would be no messiah for the messiah was a Jew. It is through Jesus that the Jews are where we get salvation for he was a Jew. That is why he said “Salvation is from the jews”. Because a jewish man is our salvation… Yeshua of Nazareth! 🙂
 
By the way Mickey, I did not ask you if the O.T. wrote of Christ. We all know that he wrote of Christ, That is a given.

I asked you to show me the fullness of the Trinity. It is not the prophets speaking of Christ to come. Christ comming is to fulfill the O.T.

The Trinity is not the comming of Christ. The fullness of the Trinity is GOD revealed to us as the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit The 3 distinct persons of the Trinity.
 
None of this shows that the fullness of the Trinity revealed to us in the O.T. The fullness of the Trinity is not revealed to us until Christ. It is Christ who revealed to us God in the 3 persons of the trinity.

If you can show me where it is revealed as God in the 3 persons please show that scripture. It has to be in there if it is revealed.

Why also if the fullness of the Trinity is revealed did Jesus ask the Apostles who he was? And why did Peter say you are the Son of God, IF Abraham revealed this to us, why would Jesus say flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my father in heaven.

Is not Abraham flesh and blood. Why did Jesus say it was not revealed to peter by a human then? Did Peter not know the word of God in the O.T.?
What does this have to do with anything? This is GIANT strawman. Islam is from the 7th century. AFTER CHRIST. And their book states what Christians believe.
 
Where is it said in their teaching that God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit? From what I have read their book teaches of Jesus as only a prophet, not the Son of God?:confused:
How did you get here from what I said?:eek::confused:
 
The thing is ; We do not get our faith from Islam. Without Islam, Christianity could still exist. Without Judaism, we would not know God. For it is the Jews that showed us God. It is the Jews that brought us the Messiah, and it was from Judaism (Jesus and the apostles) that we came to know the trinity.

Without Judaism, Christianity would not exist. this is why Jews are a special case and must NEVER be confused with anyone else.😛
  1. Judaism isn’t a “special case.” That implies some sort of loophole from the Truth and/or dishonesty on the part of God.
  2. Judaism is valid. It is valid due to the Old Covenant. [not a “specail case”]
  3. It is valid for those who do not know [are ignorant of] Christ, but hold the Old Covenant. [they know part of the Truth, but are ignorant of the whole Truth].
  4. Just being a Jew does not guarantee salvation. A Catholic who denies Christ and becomes a Jew is no more saved then a Catholic who denies Christ and becomes an atheist.
 
By the way Mickey, I did not ask you if the O.T. wrote of Christ. We all know that he wrote of Christ, That is a given.
As we all know…and as I have shown…the OT shows us God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This is the Trinity. It seems that you are the only one attemptng to argue that muslims worship the same God as the Christians because somehow the Trinity is not revealed in the OT.

It may behoove you to look for another angle. 🤷
 
GENERAL WARNING:
I would HIGHLY suggest we show charity in our posts as per forum rules or infractions will be handed out.
Stay on the topic, not each other.
 
Albeit a wanderer, Abraham was given the honor of symbolically hosting the one Lord, in His three hypostases; as hypersubstantial, in the guise of males ."
** (Canon of Midnight Prayer, ode 6
** sung on the Sunday of the Paralytic) **
 
There is no question that the Divinity of Jesus is a significant hurdle, one which neither Judaism nor Islam accepts.

That said, I have studied Judaism for many years, in depth, and also know the differences among the 3 primary branches. Based on what I do know of both Judaism and Islam, the former has much more in common with Christianity than Islam does. Why? Because of the worldview of mankind and its relationship to God our Father, the view of creation and the divine imprint, and (among orthodox Jews) the view of afterlife. Additionally, the ethic of the believer, relative to the contemporary world, is a critical similarity: mankind’s continuing role in being the instrument of the righteousness of God, and how we will we judged on such righteousness.

I agree with the entire thrust of the episode 163 which I encouraged others to watch, including with the concluding comments, which admitted that finding similarities between Isam and Christianity is a major task, given how fundamental the dissimilarities are. Having tutored a young Muslim girl for a year, in her household, I agree with the concluding remarks in the EWTN program – that finding more human connections (as opposed to theological ones) is the best hope for dialogue. I say that because my student “taught” me (by example, by behavior) a level of respect for women – given the integrity with which she viewed herself – that is too often missing even in modern Christianity (although modern Catholicism is trying to restore that Catholic view for those who have lost it). I think that it is only on this concrete level that we can hope to begin meaningful dialogue – as well as how Robert Spencer described the need to get Muslims to be honest about what their religion does and does not say, and to begin dialoguing rationally about that. All successful dialogue begins with honesty.
 
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