Church teaching on salvation is un-Biblical?

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eric3141

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Jesus said in the Bible that those who did not believe in Him were condemned. Yet the Church says that even those who have heard the gospel and rejected it are not condemned so long as they sincerely do not believe it. However, this contradicts the words of Jesus Himself who did not make an exception for those who heard and rejected but did so because they sincerely did not believe it. I can think of several passages where the Bible says that faith in Christ is required for salvation. But I can’t think of a single verse that offers the exceptions of “unless you never heard” or “unless you heard but sincerely did not believe”.

I’m having a hard time reconciling the teachings of Our Lord with what the Church is teaching on this issue. I’m not asking for logic or reason as reasonings galore could be provided I’m sure. I’m saying it seems to me that the Church’s teaching on the above seems to contradict scripture - not what we want scripture to say, but rather what scripture does actually say.

I’m RC myself but have struggled with the above for a while so thought I’d ask here.
 
Jesus is right. Those who do not believe in him are condemned. But when does that happen? Does it happen while they are still alive, or does it happen after they die?

What about those who never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel? Are they going to be condemned?

As long as we are still alive on this earth we have the opportunity to “repent and believe in the Good News.” Once we die we will be judged. If, upon their death, a person still rejects Jesus then yes, they will be condemned. But if they accept Jesus then they will be saved. This is what the Church teaches.

Jesus also said “judge not, lest ye be judged”. We, on earth, can not know whether or not a person will be saved or condemned. A person may not be completely aware of what it is they are rejecting when they say they reject Jesus. Can you honestly know for certain that they really do understand? Keep in mind Jesus was aware of how people felt toward him. It’s mentioned in several places in the Bible. People do things out of ignorance all the time and then later come to understand what they did and feel sorrow for their words and actions. We can never be completely aware of just how much knowledge they have. This is why there are three things necessary in order for a specific sin to be mortal.
  1. grave matter
  2. full knowledge
  3. complete consent
How many people would you say actually do fulfill all three? I can see most people getting 1 out of 3 but that “full knowledge” one really puts a dint in it. If they don’t have full knowledge than can you honestly say they also had complete consent? God will not condemn you because you did not understand all of the consequences of your actions. If you did have full knowledge would you have still committed that sin? Ever heard that old saying “hindsight is 20/20?”

I hope this helps some. 🙂
 
Sabda said:
What about those who never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel? Are they going to be condemned?
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The Church says not necessarily. However, I was asking from the Bible where it teaches this. I am only aware of passages that say that one must believe in Christ in order to be saved. I’m not aware of a single verse that says “unless you never heard”. But I’m hoping someone here does know one and will be willing to share it.
A person may not be completely aware of what it is they are rejecting when they say they reject Jesus.
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Yes, the Church teaches this. But where in the Bible does Christ or His apostles make this exception to the rule that if you don’t believe then you are not saved? I’m not aware of such a verse(s).
This is why there are three things necessary in order for a specific sin to be mortal.
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  1. grave matter
  2. full knowledge
  3. complete consent
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Given this I sometimes wonder if all non-Catholics will go to heaven. I mean very few of them know about some sins being mortal. The way the Church teaches salvation it seems that non-Catholics have a “get out of jail free card” and can’t go to hell because they fail point #2 - they don’t know about mortal sin therefore can’t commit any. Which given this understanding makes me wonder why ever share the gospel because once they know then they could commit mortal sin and could go to hell.
 
eric3141 said:
Jesus said in the Bible that those who did not believe in Him were condemned. Yet the Church says that even those who have heard the gospel and rejected it are not condemned so long as they sincerely do not believe it. However, this contradicts the words of Jesus Himself who did not make an exception for those who heard and rejected but did so because they sincerely did not believe it. I can think of several passages where the Bible says that faith in Christ is required for salvation. But I can’t think of a single verse that offers the exceptions of “unless you never heard” or “unless you heard but sincerely did not believe”.

I’m having a hard time reconciling the teachings of Our Lord with what the Church is teaching on this issue. I’m not asking for logic or reason as reasonings galore could be provided I’m sure. I’m saying it seems to me that the Church’s teaching on the above seems to contradict scripture - not what we want scripture to say, but rather what scripture does actually say.

I’m RC myself but have struggled with the above for a while so thought I’d ask here.
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The question is what does belief in Jesus mean? The Church teaches (rightly so) thst a person by whos words and actionsc can show a belief in Jeus even if they do not know who he is. It is more problematic for those who have been exposed to the Gosple and rejected it.The ones I bleive whohave the most difficualty would be those who were Catholic and rejected the Church. They can not claim not to have been exposed to the Gopsel and they can claim invincible ignorance concerning salvation only through the Church.
 
estesbob said:
The question is what does belief in Jesus mean? The Church teaches (rightly so) thst a person by whos words and actionsc can show a belief in Jeus even if they do not know who he is.
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I have to sincerely disagree. It’s not possible to believe in something you have never even heard of.

Also, I think since the Church teaches that it is not necessary to have ever heard of Christ to be saved then that naturally leads to low missionary zeal - which is exactly the situation in the Church today. I mean if someone never even has heard of the concept of mortal sin then according to Catholic teaching they cannot commit one and therefore (logically it would seem) are guaranteed to go to heaven. It you tell them about Christ then that guarantee no longer exists as they would then know and be capable of committing mortal sin.

BUT I posted to this particular thread because I’m hoping to learn the SCRIPTURAL passages that say that if a person has not heard of Christ or if he has heard but sincerely does not believe then these are exceptions to the rule (elsewhere explicitly taught in scripture) that one must have faith in Christ to be saved.

Jesus said He was the only way to heaven and that no man is saved except thru Him. Seems odd that someone can be saved by following a way that he never even heard of.

Again, I’m asking for SCRIPTURAL references because it seems that what the Church teaches contradicts scripture on these issues.
 
Everyone will be given a chance to accept the gift of salvation.

We have a promise that God will claim His own and no one can snatch us from His hand.

Here is a true story to illustrate how someone can be saved without actually hearing the gospel:

Phillips Brooks was the most famous preacher of his generation in America
One of his friends was Helen Keller.* Blind and deaf from the age of two, she had lived a life of isolation, unable to speak words she could not hear, unable to know what a word was.*
She was taught to communicate by a dedicated teacher in a process that has inspired people ever since.* She learned to speak, to read, to write.* She went to college and graduated with honors.* She dedicated her entire life to educating the world about its responsibility to its disabled members. Died in 1968.
Helen and Phillips Brooks wrote letters back and forth.* In one of her letters, Helen told Bishop Brooks that she had always known about God, even before she had any words. Even before she could call God anything, she knew God was there. She didn’t know what it was. God had no name for her – nothing had a name for her. She had no concept of a name. But in her darkness and isolation, she knew she was not alone. Someone was with her. She felt God’s love. And when she received the gift of language and heard about God, she said she already knew.
What Helen knew is proof of God’s love for us. He spoke to Helen without words or books.

God can do anything!

Ginger
 
Perhaps I should add that the Helen Keller story is still about Jesus. Our Lord spoke to her in the darkness and she knew. God doesn’t require us to understand everything.

There is a Bible verse on this, but it would take me forever to find it again, so I’ll leave the searching to you.

Ginger
 
Ginger2 said:
Everyone will be given a chance to accept the gift of salvation.

We have a promise that God will claim His own and no one can snatch us from His hand.

Here is a true story to illustrate how someone can be saved without actually hearing the gospel:

Phillips Brooks was the most famous preacher of his generation in America
One of his friends was Helen Keller.* Blind and deaf from the age of two, she had lived a life of isolation, unable to speak words she could not hear, unable to know what a word was.*
She was taught to communicate by a dedicated teacher in a process that has inspired people ever since.* She learned to speak, to read, to write.* She went to college and graduated with honors.* She dedicated her entire life to educating the world about its responsibility to its disabled members. Died in 1968.
Helen and Phillips Brooks wrote letters back and forth.* In one of her letters, Helen told Bishop Brooks that she had always known about God, even before she had any words. Even before she could call God anything, she knew God was there. She didn’t know what it was. God had no name for her – nothing had a name for her. She had no concept of a name. But in her darkness and isolation, she knew she was not alone. Someone was with her. She felt God’s love. And when she received the gift of language and heard about God, she said she already knew.
What Helen knew is proof of God’s love for us. He spoke to Helen without words or books.

God can do anything!

Ginger
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This speaks of a person having a general understanding that God exists without having knowledge of and faith in Christ per se. When Jesus and His apostles spoke to people telling them they must have faith in Christ in order to be saved they were speaking to people who largely already had the same understanding that Helen did - that God existed. If that were sufficient for salvation then why were they told they must have faith in Christ?
 
How do you know that it wasn’t Jesus himself speaking to Helen? Afterall, Jesus is God.

I believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation. That no one comes to the Father except thru Jesus and that only the Father who can send people to Jesus to be saved. If a person belongs to God, He will find a way despite our human limitations. God did not stop with simply giving Helen an awareness. That was just the beginning.

But, I will take some time to try and find the Bible passage I mentioned. I’ll get back to you as soon as I find it.

Ginger
 
Ok, this is the best I can find without investing a lot of time.

Romans 1:19, 20
Romans 2:15

This verses show that God/Jesus can speak to us from within. I know several people who were compelled from within to seek their creator. One man literally called out to God asking to speak to the true God, the only God, the one who created him. This man said, “I don’t want to speak to any false gods.” God called this man to seek Jesus.

I know of a former atheist who became a Christian because God revealed Himself to this man through nature - the man was a scientist.

The point I’m making is that God is not limited. God is just and will give everyone a chance to receive Jesus. Sometimes that chance is a calling from within. It is up to that person to then answer the call or ignore.

But, on judgment day, when those who rejected Christ say “it’s not fair. No one told me,” God will remind them of all the chances they were given but chose to ignore and even mock.

I trust God completely. I prayed for an atheist daily, and without any witness, one day she told me she believes in God. Now she can begin getting to know Jesus.

I hope these verses will be helpful in your quest for answers.Study them and pray for understanding. In time God may provide much clearer answers than I can ever offer.

BTW I am no longer Catholic. Just thought I should mention that so as not to mislead.

God bless,

Ginger
 
Some clarification…

I am responding to the “never heard of Jesus” comment, saying that God will give everyone a chance to accept Christ.

I firmly believe that those who have heard the gospel and reject Christ are condemned. All the Scriptures I’ve seen support this.

Ginger
 
“Thou shalt not steal”.

Children beyond the age of reason know that stealing is wrong.

They have enough “Full Knowledge” to be held accountable if they committ this sin.

Adults who try to act as though no one mortally sins because they don’t have “Fukll Knowledge” should be ashamed of themselves!
 
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes go to the Father except through me and no one comes to me except the Father call him.”
Those of us on this forum have heard God’s Word spoken to us in many different ways. We hear His Word as we read the Scriptures and as it is preached from the pulpit.
God is a loving God, His ways beyond that of mortal man. He is always calling us–re:the Hound of Heaven. It is a Catholic belief that God wants all men to be saved. Sadly, some refuse that salvation and are forever kept from His presence. What we don’t know is all the ways that God tries to get our attention.
Have you ever felt adamantly one way about something, convinced that nothing whatsoever will ever change your mind? Still a year or two later, you have a change of heart and support what you had so vehemently been against in the past. I look at the initial post this way. The person rejects the salvation that has been offered. Life continues and there is a crisis in which the person finds himself reaching for what he previously considered nothing more than a myth. This can be seen in jailhouse conversions. The point is, individually I do not know how God is working or will work in another person’s life. I do not know what word, statement, or incident will result in another’s conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as his/her personal saviour. Some things are simply beyond my comprehension.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
“Thou shalt not steal”.

Children beyond the age of reason know that stealing is wrong.

They have enough “Full Knowledge” to be held accountable if they committ this sin.
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“Held accountable” — sure I think they will be judged for it. But I’m specifically asking the question if someone outside the Church can commit a mortal sin since they in fact they don’t know it’s a mortal sin. According to what the Church teaches (or my understanding thereof which might be wrong) it seems that they cannot commit a mortal sin because they quite literally don’t know it’s mortal. The FULL knowledge part would not be met because they don’t know it’s mortal.

I’m hoping I’m wrong about this as this seems to be an obviously wrong conclusion. But so far everything I’ve read says that someone has to know it’s mortal for it to be mortal.
 
DebChris said:
I do not know what word, statement, or incident will result in another’s conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as his/her personal saviour. Some things are simply beyond my comprehension.
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I understand that. However, my specific question is “What happens if someone has heard that Jesus is the Son of God and faith in Him is necessary to go to heaven and they never believe this then die?” Very faithful Catholic sources seem to indicate that the person had to know / believe and then refuse to accept Christ — in other words if he sincerely does not believe then he is not necessarily condemned. However, the scriptures seem to say something very different and (to my knowledge) make no such exception.
 
I seem to have misunderstood. I thought the question was: “Jesus said He was the only way to heaven and that no man is saved except thru Him. Seems odd that someone can be saved by following a way that he never even heard of.”

All my responses are saying that Jesus is essential for salvation, but that God can reveal Jesus in other ways besides Scripture. If someone is born to atheist parents and if they were able to ensure that child never heard the name Jesus, God could still reveal Himself to that child and cause that child to seek the truth. No one, human or otherwise can separate that child from God. However, each individual has been given the freewill to reject that calling.

If you are asking about someone knowingly committing sin, then I suggest you begin by reading Romans 7

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul continues to sin, but he does not try to justify his behavior by claiming that God’s word is wrong. Instead he admits his error and agrees that God is right and good and just. Paul wants to do good but often gives in to some type of sin. He KNOWS what he is doing is wrong, but he does not loose his salvation because of his faith in Christ Jesus.

Ginger
 
Ohhh, I get it - I think.

You want to know where the 3 exception rules,
  1. grave matter
  2. full knowledge
  3. complete consent
are found in Scripture, correct?

I don’t think they are. Maybe someone can share the verses if the exist. I would like to see them, also.

Ginger
 
Ginger2 said:
I seem to have misunderstood. I thought the question was: “Jesus said He was the only way to heaven and that no man is saved except thru Him. Seems odd that someone can be saved by following a way that he never even heard of.”
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I guess I actually asked 2 questions. The one above is the one I’m most interested in.
All my responses are saying that Jesus is essential for salvation, but that God can reveal Jesus in other ways besides Scripture. If someone is born to atheist parents and if they were able to ensure that child never heard the name Jesus, God could still reveal Himself to that child and cause that child to seek the truth.
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OK, I think I know what you are saying now. Please correct me if I’m wrong. You are saying that explicit knowledge of and faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. However, if someone is sincerely seeking God then even if he lives in the middle of the jungle God will somehow find a way for this person to learn about Jesus before he dies. There are others who believe that and in my opinion this opinion agrees with scripture (though I myself find it unlikely as there are tribes that still have never known of Jesus and surely there were at least some among them sincerely seeking). However, this is not the teaching of the Church and Vatican 2. The Church makes no insistence that one know of Christ in order to be saved. Vatican 2 proclaimed (as did Pius IX I think) that ignorance of Christ was not necessarily an impediment to salvation. But you have told me you are no longer Catholic so that probably does not cause you concern as it’s a Catholic issue (what Vatican 2 did or did not say).
 
Ginger2 said:
Ohhh, I get it - I think.

You want to know where the 3 exception rules,
  1. grave matter
  2. full knowledge
  3. complete consent
are found in Scripture, correct?

I don’t think they are. Maybe someone can share the verses if the exist. I would like to see them, also.

Ginger
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I asked about the above because logically it seems to lead to some odd conclusions. Since most non-Catholics do not know about mortal sin (though they do know about sin in general) then they cannot have FULL knowledge that a particular sin is mortal / grave matter. Therefore, logically they are incapable of committing a mortal sin. This is odd because evangelization would seem to lower their chances of salvation because if we tell them about mortal sin then they know and do have full knowledge and now are capable of doing it whereas before they were not. Since those of us in the Church know about mortal sin then we can commit it – and therefore our chances of getting to heaven are worse than those who never heard because not hearing / knowing guarantees they cannot commit a mortal sin.

I’m sure there is something about these concepts I don’t know. Perhaps someone can tell me the part I’m missing.
 
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