Church teaching on salvation is un-Biblical?

[eric3141]

I seem to have misunderstood. I thought the question was: “Jesus said He was the only way to heaven and that no man is saved except thru Him. Seems odd that someone can be saved by following a way that he never even heard of.”

The Church and Vatican 2 say that a person can be saved apart from ever hearing about Christ. Even if he die without hearing about Christ he can still be saved. This seems completely contrary to the scriptures that say one must believe in Christ in order to be saved.

I’m wanting someone to show me from scripture where it says the exceptions “unless you never heard during your whole life then you died not having heard” or “you heard but sincerely did not believe”. There are scriptures that say that if one does not believe then he is condemned. People who have not heard do not believe. People who have heard but sincerely do not believe well, they also do not believe. I’d like to see the scriptures that say these folks are not condemned like the Bible seems to say.

 

[eric3141]

Babies do not believe in Him.
Are they condemned? If not, why not?

That’s a good question. And one I was tempted to answer. But I don’t want to get off topic lest the thread get off topic. In the scriptures when Jesus talks about those who have heard and still do not believe he is definitely including adults. Today the Church teaches that even if an adult hears the gospel and still refuses to believe he is not condemned so long as he sincerely does not believe it. This is completely contrary to scripture. Unless someone can show me the scriptures that support the RC position. I deliberately posted this question in the scripture section hoping someone could show me these. Since I’m RC myself it would be helpful to me if I could see how the Church’s teachings do not contradict scripture.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Romans 2:13-15 says “13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: 15 Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,”.

The Church teaches that "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

It does not say that those who have heard, but didn’t believe, will be saved… where is that in the Catechism?

 

[eric3141]

Romans 2:13-15 says “13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: 15 Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,”.

Yet Romans 3:19 says “For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law…” and Romans 3:21 “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law… the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”

It seems that faith and obeying God’s law are required. Romans 3:19, 21 and other verses seem to be clear that “no human being” will be justified by the law apart from faith in Christ.

The Church teaches that "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

It does not say that those who have heard, but didn’t believe, will be saved… where is that in the Catechism?

May be saved: this means they are not necessarily condemned for hearing and choosing to not believe. This is the point I was making - that scripture seems to say that unbelief does bring condemnation. I haven’t seen in scripture that one can hear, not believe, and not be condemned. In other words, scripture says hearing and not believing = condemnation. CCC says they can hear, not believe, and still may be saved (i.e., NOT necessarily condemned).

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Yet Romans 3:19 says “For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law…” and Romans 3:21 “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law… the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”

It seems that faith and obeying God’s law are required. Romans 3:19, 21 and other verses seem to be clear that “no human being” will be justified by the law apart from faith in Christ.

You have to take scripture as a whole though. We must reconcile Romans 3:19 and Romans 2:13-15. Not picking one over the other but using both of them to arrive at the truth. Here and here are some articles by CA that address this issue with scripture references. This article has some scripture references and also talks about the important issue of the Old Testament prophets who did not know Christ or His Church.

May be saved: this means they are not necessarily condemned for hearing and choosing to not believe. This is the point I was making - that scripture seems to say that unbelief does bring condemnation. I haven’t seen in scripture that one can hear, not believe, and not be condemned. In other words, scripture says hearing and not believing = condemnation. CCC says they can hear, not believe, and still may be saved (i.e., NOT necessarily condemned).

You are inserting the bolded words into the Church’s teaching. These words are NOT there. The CCC says: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or His Church…" It does not say “Those who have heard but have chose not to believe.” If you make a choice not to believe, then you are rejecting the Gospel of Christ. We are talking about two different groups of people.

 

[richardeekw]

Jesus said in the Bible that those who did not believe in Him were condemned. Yet the Church says that even those who have heard the gospel and rejected it are not condemned so long as they sincerely do not believe it. However, this contradicts the words of Jesus Himself who did not make an exception for those who heard and rejected but did so because they sincerely did not believe it. I can think of several passages where the Bible says that faith in Christ is required for salvation. But I can’t think of a single verse that offers the exceptions of “unless you never heard” or “unless you heard but sincerely did not believe”.

I’m having a hard time reconciling the teachings of Our Lord with what the Church is teaching on this issue. I’m not asking for logic or reason as reasonings galore could be provided I’m sure. I’m saying it seems to me that the Church’s teaching on the above seems to contradict scripture - not what we want scripture to say, but rather what scripture does actually say.

I’m RC myself but have struggled with the above for a while so thought I’d ask here.

Some food for thought:
Scripture (The Bible) is the arrow that Points to God - It, in itself is Not God

We must understand that GOD is the final Judge ; as the Church cannot read into the innermost depths of man’s hearts except those individual specially empowered by God , such as Padre Pio, who seem to be able to read into men’s hearts at the confessional.

Remember all sinn can be forgiven ecept the sin against the Holy Spirit. (Refusal to accept goodness, truth and salvation of God)

If all Christians including Catholics live the live of Mother Teresa, what an ideal world we will have.

All major religions teach good and have some truths. Their leaders came to teach Man “how to live” ; Jesus cam and “died for the sin of the world”

We The Apostolic Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church has the fullness of Trusth although the indivduals may not practice as they preach. (Just look at M. Gandhi. He said, if I recall correctly, that “Your Jesus is wonderful”. In fact he reads the Scriptures too. but … he says " you Christians don’t hehave and live the way of your Master" (quotes are my words)

Anyone can be Saved, althouthough we don’t know if they WILL be saved?

If anyone LIVE the teachings of Matthew Chapters 5 to 7 as it describes, I and sure that he or she will have a place in heaven

Remember we all all SINNERS striving to be SAINTS

 

[Ginger2]

With all due respect, it sounds as if you are saying that we can get into heaven thru doing good works. Isaiah 64: 6 says: … we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Apart from God we can do nothing of eternal good. Atheists can serve at the soup kitchen, but nothing they do will last into heaven.

I do good works, not because I’m supposed to, or because it feels good. I do good works out of love and gratitude for my Lord and Savior - for all God has done for me. Not to repay, that would be impossible, but because God has laid on my heart to serve.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

Scripture is clear, John 3:18 says: …whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son

In those days, when the Jews said believe in a man’s name, it meant more than just believing that he existed - it meant believing in the whole package.

Abraham believed and was saved by the same grace we are given - 2 thousand years before Jesus was born. Abraham never heard the name Jesus. None of them really fully understood the future events. They were saved by faith in the promise of salvation. Jesus is our salvation.

Helen Keller had not heard the name Jesus. But God spoke to her when no one else could. He offered her salvation without the benefit of Scriptures and Christian witness. God offered her salvation in that moment. Not with words but in her heart. It was not dependent on her learning to communicate. God is not limited.

*My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no
one can snatch them from my hand. John 10:27-28

Our salvation is solely dependent on Jesus and our willingness to say “yes”. Satan cannot steal us from God because we are blind or deaf or severely retarded.

I do not claim to understand everything, but I believe whatever God says.

John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”

Ginger*

 

[guanophore]

I guess I actually asked 2 questions. The one above is the one I’m most interested in.

Rom 1:18-32

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man – and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

This passage is about pagans to whom God has revealed HImself in creation.

OK, I think I know what you are saying now. Please correct me if I’m wrong. You are saying that explicit knowledge of and faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. However, if someone is sincerely seeking God then even if he lives in the middle of the jungle God will somehow find a way for this person to learn about Jesus before he dies. There are others who believe that and in my opinion this opinion agrees with scripture (though I myself find it unlikely as there are tribes that still have never known of Jesus and surely there were at least some among them sincerely seeking). However, this is not the teaching of the Church and Vatican 2. The Church makes no insistence that one know of Christ in order to be saved. Vatican 2 proclaimed (as did Pius IX I think) that ignorance of Christ was not necessarily an impediment to salvation. But you have told me you are no longer Catholic so that probably does not cause you concern as it’s a Catholic issue (what Vatican 2 did or did not say).

Jesus is able to reveal Himself to humans outside the visible church. The fact that He does this does not absolve us of our responsibility to preach and evangelize. You can read further in the book of Romans how God judges Pagans by the light of their conscience.

 

[Bishopite]

Jesus said in the Bible that those who did not believe in Him were condemned. Yet the Church says that even those who have heard the gospel and rejected it are not condemned so long as they sincerely do not believe it. However, this contradicts the words of Jesus Himself who did not make an exception for those who heard and rejected but did so because they sincerely did not believe it. I can think of several passages where the Bible says that faith in Christ is required for salvation. But I can’t think of a single verse that offers the exceptions of “unless you never heard” or “unless you heard but sincerely did not believe”.

I’m having a hard time reconciling the teachings of Our Lord with what the Church is teaching on this issue. I’m not asking for logic or reason as reasonings galore could be provided I’m sure. I’m saying it seems to me that the Church’s teaching on the above seems to contradict scripture - not what we want scripture to say, but rather what scripture does actually say.

I’m RC myself but have struggled with the above for a while so thought I’d ask here.

You don’t want logic nor reason yet you want us to explain extra eclessiam nulla salus? (outside the church there is no salvation)

 

[estesbob]

You don’t want logic nor reason yet you want us to explain extra eclessiam nulla salus? (outside the church there is no salvation)

That is the problem with trying to have a rational discussion with one shackled by Sola Scriptura. You can never get beyond their ***personal ***interperation of a few random verses they are just sure prove their point. How can you argue with one who have set themselves as the sole arbitor of what Scripture says?

 

[Milliardo]

Jesus said in the Bible that those who did not believe in Him were condemned. Yet the Church says that even those who have heard the gospel and rejected it are not condemned so long as they sincerely do not believe it.

Nowhere is it said that those who reject Christ and His Church will be saved; where did you get this idea?

I think you you may have mistaken what is said about those who, through no fault of their own, has not heard of Christ or His Church. That is different from those who reject Him consciously.

 

[Ginger2]

Bishopite: (outside the church there is no salvation)

Are you referring to the Church as Catholics or the church being the body of Christ?

If you are saying "church meaning the Catholic Church, I reply with this Scripture in Luke 9:
49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Milliardo, well said!

 

[Sabda]

Bishopite: (outside the church there is no salvation)

Are you referring to the Church as Catholics or the church being the body of Christ?

If you are saying "church meaning the Catholic Church, I reply with this Scripture in Luke 9:
49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Milliardo, well said!

The Catholic Church and the Body of Christ are one and the same. To divide the to is to ripe the Body of Christ (which is the Church) apart.

 

[Ginger2]

Sabda said: The Catholic Church and the Body of Christ are one and the same. To divide the to is to ripe the Body of Christ (which is the Church) apart.

I am sure you know what I am asking.

Bishopite said: outside the church there is no salvation

If that the meaning of “church” is “Catholic Church” how do you explain Luke 9:49-50"
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

 

[Bishopite]

Ginger2;2549168] (outside the church there is no salvation)

Are you referring to the Church as Catholics or the church being the body of Christ?

If you are saying "church meaning the Catholic Church, I reply with this Scripture in Luke 9:
49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Goodness you really need to read eclessial history. If you think that there is another “Church” that is the body of Christ then show some historical evidence prior to the reformation?

 

[Bishopite]

Sabda said: The Catholic Church and the Body of Christ are one and the same. To divide the to is to ripe the Body of Christ (which is the Church) apart.

I am sure you know what I am asking.

Bishopite said: outside the church there is no salvation

I explain Luke 9:49-50 as a “straw man” argument; that you are assuming Catholicism wrong from the start. A false presumption leads to false conclusions.
Again, show me some evidence of a “Church” post Apostolic period and prior to the reformation with which you are a product.

And followeth not with who? Which of the thousands of Protestant denominations shall we Catholic follow?

 

[Bishopite]

Ginger2;2545622]Everyone will be given a chance to accept the gift of salvation.

Everyone IS given a chance to accept the gift of salvation
Rom 2:15-16…
"They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. "

In Catholic theology everyone in the world gets sufficient grace where God gives everyone sufficient grace (which is NOT saving grace) in order to freely accept Him. If they willfully yield to the grace they have (Luke 12:48) then God gives them sanctifying grace, which IS saving grace even though they don’t know that they have to join the Catholic church.

We have a promise that God will claim His own and no one can snatch us from His hand.

I agree that no one can snatch us from Gods hand (Rom 8:38-39) however notice that those verses never speak about the person who can take him/herself away from God. Once saved always saved is a fallacy.

Here is a true story to illustrate how someone can be saved without actually hearing the gospel:

Phillips Brooks was the most famous preacher of his generation in America.
One of his friends was Helen Keller.* Blind and deaf from the age of two, she had lived a life of isolation, unable to speak words she could not hear, unable to know what a word was.*
She was taught to communicate by a dedicated teacher in a process that has inspired people ever since.* She learned to speak, to read, to write.* She went to college and graduated with honors.* She dedicated her entire life to educating the world about its responsibility to its disabled members. Died in 1968.
Helen and Phillips Brooks wrote letters back and forth.* In one of her letters, Helen told Bishop Brooks that she had always known about God, even before she had any words. Even before she could call God anything, she knew God was there. She didn’t know what it was. God had no name for her – nothing had a name for her. She had no concept of a name. But in her darkness and isolation, she knew she was not alone. Someone was with her. She felt God’s love. And when she received the gift of language and heard about God, she said she already knew.
What Helen knew is proof of God’s love for us. He spoke to Helen without words or books.

God can do anything!

Ginger

Of course a person can come to know God without hearing the gospel and with which the Catholic church teaches, it’s called the natural law and is based on Rom 2:15-16 which I posted earlier; Paul when he says “the law written on their hearts” (Rom 2:15-16) is speaking about the natural law or what’s known as the natural moral law of God; that God placed on every human soul the ability to know what is good and bad within our conscience. Even Hellen Keller knew without knowing words for God put it in her heart.

 

[Ignatius]

I was asking from the Bible where it teaches this…

Hi eric, let’s think about this. Have you read what it actually says? Post the actual scripture quotation here and see if it doesn’t become evident to you. If not we can discuss it.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[Don_Hepler]

Jesus is right. Those who do not believe in him are condemned. But when does that happen? Does it happen while they are still alive, or does it happen after they die?

What about those who never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel? Are they going to be condemned?

As long as we are still alive on this earth we have the opportunity to “repent and believe in the Good News.” Once we die we will be judged. If, upon their death, a person still rejects Jesus then yes, they will be condemned. But if they accept Jesus then they will be saved. This is what the Church teaches.

Jesus also said “judge not, lest ye be judged”. We, on earth, can not know whether or not a person will be saved or condemned. A person may not be completely aware of what it is they are rejecting when they say they reject Jesus. Can you honestly know for certain that they really do understand? Keep in mind Jesus was aware of how people felt toward him. It’s mentioned in several places in the Bible. People do things out of ignorance all the time and then later come to understand what they did and feel sorrow for their words and actions. We can never be completely aware of just how much knowledge they have. This is why there are three things necessary in order for a specific sin to be mortal.

1. grave matter
2. full knowledge
3. complete consent

How many people would you say actually do fulfill all three? I can see most people getting 1 out of 3 but that “full knowledge” one really puts a dint in it. If they don’t have full knowledge than can you honestly say they also had complete consent? God will not condemn you because you did not understand all of the consequences of your actions. If you did have full knowledge would you have still committed that sin? Ever heard that old saying “hindsight is 20/20?”

I hope this helps some.

nice, very nice

 

[Bishopite]

[Ginger2;2549748]
Here is a true story to illustrate how someone can be saved without actually hearing the gospel:

Phillips Brooks was the most famous preacher of his generation in America.
One of his friends was Helen Keller.* Blind and deaf from the age of two, she had lived a life of isolation, unable to speak words she could not hear, unable to know what a word was.*
She was taught to communicate by a dedicated teacher in a process that has inspired people ever since.* She learned to speak, to read, to write.* She went to college and graduated with honors.* She dedicated her entire life to educating the world about its responsibility to its disabled members. Died in 1968.
Helen and Phillips Brooks wrote letters back and forth.* In one of her letters, Helen told Bishop Brooks that she had always known about God, even before she had any words. Even before she could call God anything, she knew God was there. She didn’t know what it was. God had no name for her – nothing had a name for her. She had no concept of a name. But in her darkness and isolation, she knew she was not alone. Someone was with her. She felt God’s love. And when she received the gift of language and heard about God, she said she already knew.
What Helen knew is proof of God’s love for us. He spoke to Helen without words or books.

God can do anything!

Ginger

I reposted this because I forgot to correctly make the distinction between your quote and my response, sorry for the goof up.

Of course a person can come to know God without hearing the gospel and with which the Catholic church teaches, it’s called the natural law and is based on Rom 2:15-16 which I posted earlier; Paul when he says “the law written on their hearts” (Rom 2:15-16) is speaking about the natural law or what’s known as the natural moral law of God; that God placed on every human soul the ability to know what is good and bad within our conscience. Even Hellen Keller knew without knowing words for God put it in her heart.