Church Teachings on Sex

[Calliso]

Well, when medical issues come up you can pray as a family about it. We had a large family at my parish and one of the little girls had cancer. They prayed and prayed and did you know that the money was just there. Never underestimate the power of prayer. You need to have hope always and trust in Him who makes all things new.

Well I didn;t say all families would have had trouble raising a lot of kids I am just pointing out that it wasnl;t like all families were large and everything was great. Not every everyone back then could handle a large family and not everyone can now. Not just talking finicially either but perhaps more importantly emotionally. The point still remains that many people just can;t handle alot of kids. Heck some people can/could barely handle 1 or 2!

Yes you can and should pray if such a situation comes up but many people could tell you prayer alone often times does nothing. You can;t always assume that if you pray enough that God will bail you out of your hardtimes. Usually you have to find a way to get out of them for yourself.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I don’t care that there’s a lot of them.

I simply said that it’s definitely taken a toll on her body and that she’s been warned by doctors against having anymore children because her body is getting to the point where it can’t take it anymore.

You seemed to say that the cause of the last baby being a preemie was because she had had many other children prior. The baby was early because of preeclampsia, which can happen to any one regardless of how many prior pregnancies they had.

If Michelle was recently advised that pregnancy would be risky, most likely it was because of the preemie. Having 1 preemie raises the risk that subsequent pregnancies can also be premature.

So basically 18 kids did not cause the preemie…having had the one preemie could cause complications in future pregnancies. I only had 2 babies before the preemie, nothing indicated that I could have a preemie…but now I have a high risk of having another preemie.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Em_in_FL]

This is utterly illogical and unrealisitc. Never have to use NFP? Really? So couples are indeed supposed to just keep cranking out kids no matter what? Yes, I know you put “ideally”. But this whole string of comments on NFP and church teachings not causing problems, but it is our fallen nature, simply avoids or rejects the reality in couples lives. You can stand all day on the side of the church not being wrong. Maybe, maybe not. Either way. it in no way means that couples are not having problems because of NFP and church teachings. You choose to believe they do not; those of us living it believe otherwise.

This is what the Sacrament of Marriage is all about, though!!!

From the Catechism:

The openness to fertility

1652
"By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163

1653
The fruitfulness of conjugal love extends to the fruits of the moral, spiritual, and supernatural life that parents hand on to their children by education. Parents are the principal and first educators of their children.164 In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life.165

and more…

The fecundity of marriage

2366
Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153

2367
Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."155

2368
A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156
2369
"By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157

2370
Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate LANGUAGE that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory LANGUAGE, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

Notice that the “regulation of procreation” is just a “particular aspect” of the fecundity of marriage… not the end-all-be-all. There must be a “just reason” to do so - and it also goes on to say that the couple “may wish” (not a requirement)…

All of this adds up to exactly what you are calling “utterly illogical and unrealisitc”…

 

[Debora123]

You seemed to say that the cause of the last baby being a preemie was because she had had many other children prior. The baby was early because of preeclampsia, which can happen to any one regardless of how many prior pregnancies they had.

If Michelle was recently advised that pregnancy would be risky, most likely it was because of the preemie. Having 1 preemie raises the risk that subsequent pregnancies can also be premature.

So basically 18 kids did not cause the preemie…having had the one preemie could cause complications in future pregnancies. I only had 2 babies before the preemie, nothing indicated that I could have a preemie…but now I have a high risk of having another preemie.

Hope that makes sense.

Gotcha. Not exactly what I heard, but that makes sense.

 

[onmyknees]

Well I didn;t say all families would have had trouble raising a lot of kids I am just pointing out that it wasnl;t like all families were large and everything was great. Not every everyone back then could handle a large family and not everyone can now. Not just talking finicially either but perhaps more importantly emotionally. The point still remains that many people just can;t handle alot of kids. Heck some people can/could barely handle 1 or 2!

Yes you can and should pray if such a situation comes up but many people could tell you prayer alone often times does nothing. You can;t always assume that if you pray enough that God will bail you out of your hardtimes. Usually you have to find a way to get out of them for yourself.

Yes, I agree that God will not always bail you out even when you have prayed and prayed for Him to help you out of hard times but He always listens and answers you. It may not be the answer we like. His answer may be like you said that you have to find ways on your own to raise the money. Or it may be that He wants you to make it with less. Remember He has said that His grace will be enough. He will not send you more trials that you can handle.

I still don’t agree with you that many people can’t handle a lot of kids or even 1or 2 emotionally. I think the problem is that many women have full time jobs so they are just too exhausted raise any more children. If they would give up their luxuries and not work outside the home or just work part-time There are lots of things to do with your kids that are not expensive. Take them to a park, go hiking, biking, swimming at a lake, teach them to bake, cook, knit etc. In large families the older children share in the care for the younger children so their is lots of help for the parents. In my parish today there are families who have 5 to 8 children, some even adopted and the mom stays home. In my family we even had foster babies along with the six children. They brought in a little income for us too. So I know that when they want to do God’s will there is a way.

My neighbors who were Vietnamese have five children. They payed for their firstborn son’s tuition to become an Engineer and then when he got his job he payed for the second born sister’s tuition to become a Pediatrician, then she paid for the third born’s tuition and so on. This is working for them today.

Yes, there is bound to be times when it is emotionally hard but that is part of God’s plan to get us to heaven. We all need to have more faith and trust in Him.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I did not vote on the poll as I am no longer married and did not want to skew it but I did want to offer you another book written by women - It is Women, Sex, and the Church: the Case for Catholic Teaching. I read it and loved it after seeing the editor speak at Dartmouth College at a Theology on Tap. She was a secular feminist that came over to the true authentic feminity of the Catholic Church. I hope you can appreciate it.

 

[Calliso]

Yes, I agree that God will not always bail you out even when you have prayed and prayed for Him to help you out of hard times but He always listens and answers you. It may not be the answer we like. His answer may be like you said that you have to find ways on your own to raise the money. Or it may be that He wants you to make it with less. Remember He has said that His grace will be enough. He will not send you more trials that you can handle.

I still don’t agree with you that many people can’t handle a lot of kids or even 1or 2 emotionally. I think the problem is that many women have full time jobs so they are just too exhausted raise any more children. If they would give up their luxuries and not work outside the home or just work part-time There are lots of things to do with your kids that are not expensive. Take them to a park, go hiking, biking, swimming at a lake, teach them to bake, cook, knit etc. In large families the older children share in the care for the younger children so their is lots of help for the parents. In my parish today there are families who have 5 to 8 children, some even adopted and the mom stays home. In my family we even had foster babies along with the six children. They brought in a little income for us too. So I know that when they want to do God’s will there is a way.

My neighbors who were Vietnamese have five children. They payed for their firstborn son’s tuition to become an Engineer and then when he got his job he payed for the second born sister’s tuition to become a Pediatrician, then she paid for the third born’s tuition and so on. This is working for them today.

Yes, there is bound to be times when it is emotionally hard but that is part of God’s plan to get us to heaven. We all need to have more faith and trust in Him.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree I feel this way because I know for a fact that I could not handle any kids and if I can;t handle any kids then how could I say well everyone else is an exception and cuold handle lots of kids? For some women it would not matter if they had enough money and time and didn;t have a job outside the home to stress them out they still would not be able to handle a lot of kids. Or more then one or two like I said before. Perhaps the majority of women aren;t this way but quite a few are and men. I mean I couldn;t imagine my husband dealing with a bunch of kids!

 

[onmyknees]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree I feel this way because I know for a fact that I could not handle any kids and if I can;t handle any kids then how could I say well everyone else is an exception and cuold handle lots of kids? For some women it would not matter if they had enough money and time and didn;t have a job outside the home to stress them out they still would not be able to handle a lot of kids. Or more then one or two like I said before. Perhaps the majority of women aren;t this way but quite a few are and men. I mean I couldn;t imagine my husband dealing with a bunch of kids!

Okay, We can agree to disagree but I was wondering how you know for a fact that you could not handle any kids and that your husband would not be able to deal with a bunch of kids.

Just saying that when you have them everything changes. I would hate for you to miss out on this. Raising my boys was by far the most rewarding time in my life and I am so glad that they still are for my dh and I. In fact my dh now regrets telling me that we would not be having anymore children. He sadly realized too late what a blessing they are and he wishes we had had more.

 

[EternalJade]

My neighbors who were Vietnamese have five children. They payed for their firstborn son’s tuition to become an Engineer and then when he got his job he payed for the second born sister’s tuition to become a Pediatrician, then she paid for the third born’s tuition and so on. This is working for them today.
.

I have to say, I think that is awesome!! Wouldn’t it be nice if all families had that type of spirit and helped each other out like this?

My views on children are in between, regardless of whether NFP or other methods are employed. I find the view of marriage being connected to having baby after baby more than a bit extremist and out of touch with reality. But on the other hand I agree that people could be having more kids, in general. I think that the norm of having around 2 kids and then buying them whatever they want has created a very selfish and materialistic society. not always the case, but in general. Myself, we have 4 and may or may not have 1 more. We are by no means poor but unlike their friends they share and dont always have new and are growing up with thrifty habits. Most importantly they know the world doesn’t revolve around them and they know how to give and take!

 

[onmyknees]

Yes, I thought that this Vietnamese family had a great idea that teaches selflessness, responsibility and charity for others.

I don’t think that families have to just keep having baby after baby. It is really God who decides how many children families will have. The parents can carefully discern through prayer whether they indeed have a serious reason for abstaining. God has given us a natural infertile period and couples can also choose to sacrifice by abstaining from relations for a time to pray.

This is one of my favorite scripture verses.

Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, “Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety.” So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, “Blessed are you, O God of our fathers… You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.’ I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together.” And they both said, “Amen, Amen.” Then they went to sleep for the night.

 

[Calliso]

Okay, We can agree to disagree but I was wondering how you know for a fact that you could not handle any kids and that your husband would not be able to deal with a bunch of kids.

Just saying that when you have them everything changes. I would hate for you to miss out on this. Raising my boys was by far the most rewarding time in my life and I am so glad that they still are for my dh and I. In fact my dh now regrets telling me that we would not be having anymore children. He sadly realized too late what a blessing they are and he wishes we had had more.

Well to be fair I guess maybe I am not 100% certain however I am mostly sure. But I guess when I think about having kids I just shudder the idea is like the absolute worst possible nightmare for me. I can;t think of one single small positive thing that would come from me having kids. As for my husband he is older then me in his 40’;s and I just donlt see him as having the energy and patience to deal with a bunch of kids running around. Not to mention that would put even more stress on him to provide which would not be fair to him I donlt think.

To be honest I can;t figure out what I would be missing out with kids that I couldn;t get from an animal. Really I am thinking about it really hard right now and canlt think of a single thing. So for myself personally I donlt think I am missing out on anything.

 

[happymommy]

Well to be fair I guess maybe I am not 100% certain however I am mostly sure. But I guess when I think about having kids I just shudder the idea is like the absolute worst possible nightmare for me. I can;t think of one single small positive thing that would come from me having kids. As for my husband he is older then me in his 40’;s and I just donlt see him as having the energy and patience to deal with a bunch of kids running around. Not to mention that would put even more stress on him to provide which would not be fair to him I donlt think.

To be honest I can;t figure out what I would be missing out with kids that I couldn;t get from an animal. Really I am thinking about it really hard right now and canlt think of a single thing. So for myself personally I donlt think I am missing out on anything.

well, I’ve had animals and I have kids. I’ll take the kids any day! I’ll take being a part of creating another soul with God through my husband and myself than another dog or (shudder) a cat, blah!

 

[Calliso]

well, I’ve had animals and I have kids. I’ll take the kids any day! I’ll take being a part of creating another soul with God through my husband and myself than another dog or (shudder) a cat, blah!

I admit the idea of a dog or cat appeals to me much more! I mean not that creating another soul with God would not be cool it just doesnt appeal to me. Besides dogs and cats are much much cuter!

 

[happymommy]

I admit the idea of a dog or cat appeals to me much more! I mean not that creating another soul with God would not be cool it just doesnt appeal to me. Besides dogs and cats are much much cuter!

I really hope you are kidding that you find some dumb animal cuter than a child! If not, that’s really sad. One should not value an animal over a person! Animals were never meant to take the place of having children!

 

[Calliso]

I really hope you are kidding that you find some dumb animal cuter than a child! If not, that’s really sad. One should not value an animal over a person! Animals were never meant to take the place of having children!

Hey animals aren;t dumb! And yes I really do find animals much much cuter then kids. Its just my personal preference is all. And for me yes they have taken the place of having kids some people were meant to have kids some were meant to have animals instead! I think of animals as my furry kids.

Really though you donlt think this is cuter then most kids? cat I am looking at adopting petfinder.com/petdetail/20445375

 

[happymommy]

Hey animals aren;t dumb! And yes I really do find animals much much cuter then kids. Its just my personal preference is all. And for me yes they have taken the place of having kids some people were meant to have kids some were meant to have animals instead! I think of animals as my furry kids.

Really though you donlt think this is cuter then most kids? cat I am looking at adopting petfinder.com/petdetail/20445375

No, some animals are not dumb, but they are not people and should not be taking the place of people!

No, I don’t think that is cuter than a kid, but I have never met a cat that I thought was cute! Don’t like cats at all. The only cat I kind of like is the one that roams the neighborhood taking out mice! But it’s ugly as sin!

Did you have a Catholic wedding? Because we are to be open to children, not open to pets in place of children.

 

[Calliso]

No, some animals are not dumb, but they are not people and should not be taking the place of people!

No, I don’t think that is cuter than a kid, but I have never met a cat that I thought was cute! Don’t like cats at all. The only cat I kind of like is the one that roams the neighborhood taking out mice! But it’s ugly as sin!

Did you have a Catholic wedding? Because we are to be open to children, not open to pets in place of children.

You haven;t seen enough cats then! No I didn;t have a Catholic wedding though I was married in a church. I could be misremembering them but I donlt think our vows including anything about being open to children.

 

[samiam1611]

I agree with you calliso! I think animals are cuter too. I like smushy faced dogs especially. the wrinklier and smushier, the better. and dogs are much less annoying than kids bc they are more independent and much cheaper too! it is sad though how they die. most people die before their kids do so dont have to deal with that grief. us animal owners will have to experience that grief numerous times. Though it’s not the same as losing a child I imagine, it still sucks really bad.

check out cuteoverload.com. when i am not wasting time on this site, i am wasting time on that one!

 

[happymommy]

I agree with you calliso! I think animals are cuter too. I like smushy faced dogs especially. the wrinklier and smushier, the better. and dogs are much less annoying than kids bc they are more independent and much cheaper too! it is sad though how they die. most people die before their kids do so dont have to deal with that grief. us animal owners will have to experience that grief numerous times. Though it’s not the same as losing a child I imagine, it still sucks really bad.

check out cuteoverload.com. when i am not wasting time on this site, i am wasting time on that one!

Yes, it was harder when our baby died then when our dog died! And there are plenty of people that go through losing more than one child! The grief can not be compared to that of losing an animal!

 

[samiam1611]

Yes, it was harder when our baby died then when our dog died! And there are plenty of people the go through losing children numerous times! The grief can not be compared to that of losing an animal!

absolutely, i understand. it’s just the frequency, the inevitablity of the dog dying in your lifetime. i am still grieving over the loss of my dog, that was almost a year ago. before her, getting a new dog would help me get over the one who had just died, but even though my new dog is pretty similar, that last one was so special, she really was just like a child to me. i would probably not love a human child as much as i loved that dog. she was like my soulmate in canine form.