Church Teachings on Sex

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Not to harp on you in the least - but your post SCREAMS of marital issues OUTSIDE of NFP.
Yes, NFP requires some abstinence.
No, NFP does NOT mean you can’t flirt and hug and snuggle and get excited about each other. No matter what time of month it is (“safe” or “unsafe”) we’re ALWAYS flirting - slapping butts, making dirty jokes, teasing, etc… NON-STOP! Having to abstain is NOT an excuse to not do those things. You’re *MAKING *it an excuse. That’s your choice - the church isn’t stopping you.

You’re missing the point and I don’t how else to explain what I’ve explained, so… Happy for you and your hubby. Doesn’t work the same for everyone else.

Give… and you shall receive. 😉
Assumptive on your part, isn’t it?
 
Yes, I think your got it right, Mark.

A wife expresses her love for her husband by having intimate sexual relations with him. A husband can express his love for his wife by all the things you mentioned above. IMHO most wives would want their husband to express his love for her by having the intimate conversations that will bring about a connection between them. They want to really know their husbands more intimately. Like best friends. It is difficult for some men to do this and it can be just as difficult for some women to want to have sexual relations without having the intimate conversations.
That’s me, and that’s my husband. The only intimacy between us is sexual, and that is not too frequent as he has been out of the country half of the time this year. Sure, we talk briefly about what the kids are doing, and we talk A LOT about his business, or, rather, he talks and I listen, but as for sharing any other parts of ourselves, no. And I don’t feel loved because that part of our relationship has withered, if it ever really existed. (We’ve been married 22 years and had kids for 20 of those 22 years. Before kids, there was a lot more sex so I’m not sure if he was being intimate or just that his sexual needs were met so he felt more happy. KWIM?)

I suspect the intimacy was never there, because he seems to have no clue as to what I mean when I tell him I want more intimacy OTHER than sex.

😦
 
I am sorry but I cannot explain it to you, nor lessen the pain you obviously feel. But I don’t think the problem is with Church teaching. Sure it would be nice if they had a different teaching but I say that for selfish reasons–for what I desire (not talking about anyone else just me).

When you say “sex is how men express their love to their wives and it makes them feel like a man” I am not sure I agree. I think this attitude is what we have been conditioned to by the society we live in and it is portrayed on television and in advertising and I think it sets up a false expectation and belief and causes great pain in our society.

Sex is not how I express my love for my wife or feel like a man. I express my love for her by trying to make her life easier. By doing laundry, by cooking, by doing dishes, by making her a mocha in the morning, by trying to keep the house clean, etc. This I think expresses my love for her. I am not sure “sex” does. I remember when we were much younger–my wife liked to just cuddle–but as a guy well I’d prefer it lead to more than cuddling–now if it did was I expressing my love for my wife? Or was I expressing my love for my wife by just cuddling with her? She’d like to sit up late and talk about the future our plans our hopes our fears–that’s where intimacy is developed.

The distinction I would make is that I need sex not to show my love for my wife but to feel loved by my wife–even though I know that’s crazy. I know she loves me by the things she will do for me. I guess feel you can be intimate and physically close without it having to necessarily end in intercourse or climax–though it takes work and retraining–as the images and messages society bombards us with daily work against what true intimacy is. Intimacy is not intercouse. Intercourse may be the ultimate expression of intimacy but it is not intimacy itself and there are many other expressions of intimacy.

I think you get it back by thinking about whats best for your wife and doing things for her–maybe things you’ve never done before–just because you love her. Love is not a feeling. Is intercourse the only way you can express your love physically? Can you not kiss and cuddle without it leading to intercourse? Believe me I know it’s difficult but it can be done. I wish I had a magic bullet to offer you, some great words of wisdom to take away your pain and sorrow but I don’t. I urge you to pray even if it seems like you are just going through the motions. Pray for that connection and do little things for your wife to express your love for her and maybe over time these will help you feel that connection. We must all pray for each other.

Prayers,
Mark
I wish you could talk to my husband.

😦
 
That’s me, and that’s my husband. The only intimacy between us is sexual, and that is not too frequent as he has been out of the country half of the time this year. Sure, we talk briefly about what the kids are doing, and we talk A LOT about his business, or, rather, he talks and I listen, but as for sharing any other parts of ourselves, no. And I don’t feel loved because that part of our relationship has withered, if it ever really existed. (We’ve been married 22 years and had kids for 20 of those 22 years. Before kids, there was a lot more sex so I’m not sure if he was being intimate or just that his sexual needs were met so he felt more happy. KWIM?)

I suspect the intimacy was never there, because he seems to have no clue as to what I mean when I tell him I want more intimacy OTHER than sex.

Interesting. Only because it kind of hits on what I’ve been trying to explain. Our relationship had always been a lot of communication and talking and praying; we were pretty much always on the same sheet of music. Overall intimacy was not a problem in areas other than sex, and the sex was wonderful, too. When we were having problems with our son, even our oldest daughter asked at the time, “What happened to us?” My answer was, “We had teenagers”. My wife and I never disagreed on much of anything until then. We were raised differently. But teenagers, especially my son, tore us apart a great deal. Fast forward, it pretty much got to where I’d do my best to be quiet and keep the peace as much as possible; no always possible when I had to be the hard one. I already had given up a career, felt I gave up my better judgment raising kids, felt I didn’t matter so just not talking became the better alternative. My wife at one point said she didn’t want to grow old with a bitter person. Why bother talking then? Losing sexual intimacy on top of all of that pretty much capped it off.

This guy understands/understood what intimacy was because we communicated so much. I miss it, too. But we still look at things differently, don’t look forward to the same things when we get older, view getting older differently, obviously look at the church and sex differently, and I know we will just settle down and do whatever my wife wants because I’d hate myself for having her unhappy somewhere (not that I ever anticipate being able to retire).

We pretty much talk about work, “how was the day” and the kids, like you do. I miss the intimacy and communication. And before someone says to work on it or “give and you will receive”, tell me how that works if there is no possibility of things changing? Why bother? I can only pretend so much. So I pretty much just go day to day, go to work, bring home the paycheck, do what I need to do around the house and with the kids because I am supposed to as a husband and father. I could not tell you the last time I had an intense feeling of love in my heart for my wife, or kids, or anyone; they say they love me, and I don’t know why. They show me, I just don’t feel it nor do I feel i deserve it.

I focus on the lack of sex so much because it was the last straw - the last connection I had with my wife, the only person I can/could turn to for comfort, was pretty much taken away when other things were already failing. More communication is not going to fix that either ,because the church says we cannot.

Someone posted that my posts are screaming issues other than sex. I know that. But it is all completely wrapped up into one ball. How do you fix one without the other? Maybe that is not the same for others posting here, but it is reality for me.

It is reality for TheRealJuliane, but in a different way, I guess. But I can feel her hurt as well… .

😦
 
That’s me, and that’s my husband. The only intimacy between us is sexual, and that is not too frequent as he has been out of the country half of the time this year. Sure, we talk briefly about what the kids are doing, and we talk A LOT about his business, or, rather, he talks and I listen, but as for sharing any other parts of ourselves, no. And I don’t feel loved because that part of our relationship has withered, if it ever really existed. (We’ve been married 22 years and had kids for 20 of those 22 years. Before kids, there was a lot more sex so I’m not sure if he was being intimate or just that his sexual needs were met so he felt more happy. KWIM?)

I suspect the intimacy was never there, because he seems to have no clue as to what I mean when I tell him I want more intimacy OTHER than sex.

😦
Yes, I think this is how it is for a lot of married couples but I do have friends whose husbands are more open with their wives.

I honestly think my husband cannot really open up about himself. We go on dates and if I ask him questions about his police work or his hunting/fishing trips and he will talk about these things but just can’t seem to tell me anything like what are his wants, needs, goals, or plans. And forget about him telling me how he is feeling or giving any kind of complement or even saying I love you. So I end up talking to him and he listens.

I have lovingly tried to tell him that I need communication and loving words from him many times. He doesn’t respond to this at all. So I finally gave it up a while back. I still choose to have intimate relations with him because I do love him (but not when we are fighting) :(, he is a good man and provider, he is in a happy mood afterwards (so yes, KWYM), and the most important reason, I want to get him and myself to heaven.🙂

We married when we were both 18 and will be married 34 yrs. this Saturday.
 
And what happens if/when the kid/kids never visit never call? There are plenty of people in nursing homes with kids who haven;t spoken with them or seen them in monthes or even years. Me having kids would not guarentee that those kids would want anything to do with me or that they would actually take care of me in my old age.
Sure there are no guarantees–except this: there is not even the possibility that your pet can take care of you in your old age. On the flip side there are plenty of people in nursing homes who’s kids faithfully visit. There are plenty of people in nursing homes who are visited by “strangers” who volunteer through various ministries. The are plenty of old people who’s children sacrifice and stay home to take care of their parents in their homes. Your pet cannot do this. It is irrelevant that some children don’t do it. Wasn’t this about what can a child do for me that a pet can’t or some such thing?

Peace,
Mark
 
Sure there are no guarantees–except this: there is not even the possibility that your pet can take care of you in your old age. On the flip side there are plenty of people in nursing homes who’s kids faithfully visit. There are plenty of people in nursing homes who are visited by “strangers” who volunteer through various ministries. The are plenty of old people who’s children sacrifice and stay home to take care of their parents in their homes. Your pet cannot do this. It is irrelevant that some children don’t do it. Wasn’t this about what can a child do for me that a pet can’t or some such thing?

Peace,
Mark
Well that is just the thing since I know there is no chance my pet/pets could ever take care of me in my old age there is no chance of disappointment. But ok I guess you could argue that I could be missing out on someone to take care of me when I get older. Ok that is one thing that MAYBE I could get from a kid. But still it is a huge maybe and I think it would be far better to not have any kids then have kids that want nothing to do with you I think the latter would hurt far worse. But other then that I can;t think of anything kids could give me that I can;t get in some way from a pet.
 
Well that is just the thing since I know there is no chance my pet/pets could ever take care of me in my old age there is no chance of disappointment. But ok I guess you could argue that I could be missing out on someone to take care of me when I get older. Ok that is one thing that MAYBE I could get from a kid. But still it is a huge maybe and I think it would be far better to not have any kids then have kids that want nothing to do with you I think the latter would hurt far worse. But other then that I can;t think of anything kids could give me that I can;t get in some way from a pet.
So is life about not being disappointed? That means never taking a risk. Never dating, Never marrying, not really even having friends. Everything we do in life has the possibility for disappointment–but with that risk comes the possibility of great joy.

I think you overstate the risk of “kids not wanting to have anything to do with you”. Out of all the people we know I can’t think of a single person who’s kids don’t want anything to do with them. I know they exist I just don’t know any and the way you talk (or should I say write?) it sounds like the vast majority of kids disown their parents.–so you’d figure I’d know some if that was really the case. In all likely hood to get your child to want nothing to do with you - you’d probably have to do something pretty egregious.

Conversation. You really can’t get meaningful conversation out of your pet. Your pet can’t really share an experience at Louve with you–can’t really appreciate the art.

Oh and it is possible to get a pet that really wants nothing to do with you–they do exist those aloof pets.

Nothing I could say would convince you of the difference in watching a child grow over the experience of raising a pet–don’t expect it to. But, I’m sorry, it is silly to say their is nothing you can get from a child that you can’t get from a pet. May what you mean is there is nothing you would want to get from a child (and by extension people?) that you can’t get from a pet?

Peace,
Mark
 
So is life about not being disappointed? That means never taking a risk. Never dating, Never marrying, not really even having friends. Everything we do in life has the possibility for disappointment–but with that risk comes the possibility of great joy.

I think you overstate the risk of “kids not wanting to have anything to do with you”. Out of all the people we know I can’t think of a single person who’s kids don’t want anything to do with them. I know they exist I just don’t know any and the way you talk (or should I say write?) it sounds like the vast majority of kids disown their parents.–so you’d figure I’d know some if that was really the case. In all likely hood to get your child to want nothing to do with you - you’d probably have to do something pretty egregious.

Conversation. You really can’t get meaningful conversation out of your pet. Your pet can’t really share an experience at Louve with you–can’t really appreciate the art.

Oh and it is possible to get a pet that really wants nothing to do with you–they do exist those aloof pets.

Nothing I could say would convince you of the difference in watching a child grow over the experience of raising a pet–don’t expect it to. But, I’m sorry, it is silly to say their is nothing you can get from a child that you can’t get from a pet. May what you mean is there is nothing you would want to get from a child (and by extension people?) that you can’t get from a pet?

Peace,
Mark
I donlt have any friends actually, and to be honest my husband and I kinda met by chance neither of us was really looking. Yes everything we do has the possiblity for dissapointment but I try to be careful to lessen the chance of disappointment.

True I probably over state the risk and donlt necessarily think it would for sure happen to me if I were to have kids.

I am nearly incapable of holding a meaningful conversation period lol.

Yeah I think it would be more accurate to say that I want nothing from a kid that I can;t get from a pet.
 
YES
No
No
No issues and when temptation strikes pray until Gods grace takes away the temptation.
 
That’s me, and that’s my husband. The only intimacy between us is sexual, and that is not too frequent as he has been out of the country half of the time this year. Sure, we talk briefly about what the kids are doing, and we talk A LOT about his business, or, rather, he talks and I listen, but as for sharing any other parts of ourselves, no. And I don’t feel loved because that part of our relationship has withered, if it ever really existed. (We’ve been married 22 years and had kids for 20 of those 22 years. Before kids, there was a lot more sex so I’m not sure if he was being intimate or just that his sexual needs were met so he felt more happy. KWIM?)

I suspect the intimacy was never there, because he seems to have no clue as to what I mean when I tell him I want more intimacy OTHER than sex.

😦
This is very very sad. I am so sorry. 😦

Prayers your way.
 
I wish you could talk to my husband.

😦
Have YOU tried talking to him yourself?

I mean, really sitting down in private sometime when you both have nothing going on and just telling him everything you feel, while listening to everything HE feels?
 
Sigh. I wandered to this forum looking for some advice, and this topic is pertinent to my interests.

I married three months ago, and NFP is already feeling like a heavy burden. We dated for two years prior to marriage, and waited til marriage to have sex. I started charting a year before we were married, researching FAM, Billings, and CrMS. I’m a scientist, so I gravitated towards CrMS for its excellent classification and observation methods.

We’re waiting to have children for a few years (hopefully): we want to build our marriage as strong as we can before welcoming children. Coming from a broken home myself, I know the best gift we can give our children is a strong marriage. Staying at home to raise children will likely never be an option for me: I’m by far the breadwinner.

The time of abstinence is incredibly hard on my husband. I pray desperately during these times, but I just get sleepless nights.

All I’m asking is this: your prayers for me and my husband, and for some advice about how to handle the abstaining period. (Telling him that other people have it worse is not likely going to be comforting…does telling your children about poor kids in Africa make them eat their food? Never worked for me at least. 😉 )
 
Sigh. I wandered to this forum looking for some advice, and this topic is pertinent to my interests.

I married three months ago, and NFP is already feeling like a heavy burden. We dated for two years prior to marriage, and waited til marriage to have sex. I started charting a year before we were married, researching FAM, Billings, and CrMS. I’m a scientist, so I gravitated towards CrMS for its excellent classification and observation methods.

We’re waiting to have children for a few years (hopefully): we want to build our marriage as strong as we can before welcoming children. Coming from a broken home myself, I know the best gift we can give our children is a strong marriage. Staying at home to raise children will likely never be an option for me: I’m by far the breadwinner.

The time of abstinence is incredibly hard on my husband. I pray desperately during these times, but I just get sleepless nights.

All I’m asking is this: your prayers for me and my husband, and for some advice about how to handle the abstaining period. (Telling him that other people have it worse is not likely going to be comforting…does telling your children about poor kids in Africa make them eat their food? Never worked for me at least. 😉 )
Hello, Geolojazz -

You absolutely have my humble prayers.

You will get all sorts of advice on how to handle the abstaining, and how it is all peachy for some and no so for others. I fall into the latter category which is why I started the thread. NFP itself is not really the issue, I don’t think; it is the combination of church teachings on sex and NFP that create the issues for some couples. I don’t happen to believe in the teachings on sex, which to the point of this thread, dictates when and where the man is to climax all the time. That in itself restricts sex to limited times, hence NFP, and the combination, for us, has taken a terrible toll. I cannot for the life of me believe that is what God intends, but the church effectively says it is - and just because the church or someone here says it isn’t supposed to be that way, or we can have sex whenever we want (not true), it does not minimize or negate what is in fact happening to couples’ intimacy.

Telling your husband that some people have it worse is not going to work; I agree there. That will and has happened here, as you can read in posts. You will find that, depending on what you believe and feel about church teachings, you will be told you are wrong and just have to pray about it. Many couples, looking at the poll, have no issues with church teachings and NFP and their sex lives, yet others do.

I will pray that you find a solution together. Honestly, being sexually distant and frustrated all the time has, over time, led to an overall lack of intimacy that handholding and backrubs and cleaning the house will not replace or fix. That’s us, not everyone. That said, and at the risk of darn near blashphemy, I would read the CCC, pray together, and make up your own hearts and minds. Unfortunately, my wife and I view and believe and see it all differently. I hope and pray you find an answer together - and have a mutual, exciting, healthy sex life.
 
This is a wonderfully honest and realistic post, thank you for sharing your intimate struggle. I do not follow the Catholic religion precisely for reasons as you describe. There exists human/realistic reasons why SOME FLEXIBILITY should be introduced into the dictated rulebook.
I admit, I don’t know specifics on who exactly wrote the CCC or what group of men (because, surely, it was men?) did all the interpreting from the words in the bible (which i assume is the source for the rules? And we do not know for sure who wrote those words 50-100 years after the fact, and with several translations, right?)…BUT, in today’s world, for couples to follow the religion AND be happier, surely there are a few little tweaks that can be made.
Else people will be despondent, as you are, or leave the church. They will be seen as “weak” but really, it is just worn down and sad.
Human psychology and reality must be taken into account.

It’s good that you posted this poll because I think you are seeing you are not alone, and so are others.
I don’t even know you, but I feel such sadness and empathy for your situation…when it didn’t have to be that way!!! 😦

You did everything “right” and it led you to…sadness.

I’m going to re-read what you wrote and post something happier now…something to inspire you and maybe be helpful 🙂
I appreciate it very much, I really do. Look forward to it. PM me if you wish.
 
Hi everyone, I have a similar thread going on. I am in a similar mind set, but I am basically avoiding getting married because I am anticipating a very difficult family life because of these issues. Please jump over to my post and read what I had had to say here and help me out as well. I want to get married and be happy with my girlfriend, but because I anticipate a very difficult married life as a result of the sexual teachings of the church, I cannot bring myself to do it!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=776972
 
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