Church to which the authors of scripture belonged...?

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My friend Bogeydogg got me thinking:

How many non-Catholics here at CAF, believe that the authors of the NT books were in fact Christians belonging to the present day Catholic Church? If not, then which church in the world today, did the authors of the NT books, belong? That church must still exist because Jesus said that He would be with His 1st century established church until the end of time…
 
joe370 said:
My friend Bogeydogg got me thinking:

How many non-Catholics here at CAF, believe that the authors of scripture were in fact Christians belonging to the present day Catholic Church? If not, then which church in the world today, did the authors of scripture belong? That church must still exist because Jesus said that He would be with His 1st century established church until the end of time…🙂
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Yes, Jesus said He would be with His church always. But it does not follow from that statement that it already existed at the time He was speaking. IMO, the Twelve were followers of Christ, but not yet members of any established church.
 
joe370 said:
My friend Bogeydogg got me thinking:

How many non-Catholics here at CAF, believe that the authors of scripture were in fact Christians belonging to the present day Catholic Church? If not, then which church in the world today, did the authors of scripture, belong? That church must still exist because Jesus said that He would be with His 1st century established church until the end of time…
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The authors of the books of the Old Testament were Jewish. Many of the authors of the New Testament books would have been Jewish too and considered themselves followers of Christ. I’m not sure when we started being called Christians. Those New Testament authors belonged to the Apostolic Church that continues to day in the Eastern, Oriental, and Western Catholic and Orthodox churches.
 
Izdaari said:
Yes, Jesus said He would be with His church always. But it does not follow from that statement that it already existed at the time He was speaking. IMO, the Twelve were followers of Christ, but not yet members of any established church.
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When do you claim that the Church came into existence? I know when it came into being.
 
Izdaari said:
Yes, Jesus said He would be with His church always. But it does not follow from that statement that it already existed at the time He was speaking. IMO, the Twelve were followers of Christ, but not yet members of any established church.
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I was referring to the 1st century, post Pentecost. Jesus said: I will build my church… and His church began on Pentecost. 👍

What was your answer? 🙂
 
Izdaari said:
Yes, Jesus said He would be with His church always. But it does not follow from that statement that it already existed at the time He was speaking. IMO, the Twelve were followers of Christ, but not yet members of any established church.
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And yet, somehow they managed to call a Council (Acts 15) and send envoys and missionaries around the world, as well as assembling together for the prayers and the breaking of the bread (Holy Mass), ordain Deacons (Acts 7), and both collect and distribute alms. :confused: 🤷
 
joe370 said:
I was referring to the 1st century, post Pentecost. Jesus said: I will build my church… and His church began on Pentecost. 👍

What was your answer? 🙂
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I agree that it began on Pentecost. I do not agree that it was at that point the Catholic Church.
 
Izdaari said:
I agree that it began on Pentecost. I do not agree that it was at that point the Catholic Church.
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Which means, if you are right, the CC is not the church established by Jesus Christ - yes? If yes then where in the world today can one locate the church to which the authors of the NT, belonged, in your opinion?
 
joe370 said:
Which means, if you are right, the CC is not the church established by Jesus Christ - yes? If yes then where in the world today can one locate the church to which the authors of the NT, belonged, in your opinion?
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Yes and no. I do believe the CC is part of the church Jesus Christ established, and an important and valuable part at that. But I think the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox have just as much claim. And I think Luther and Calvin were not entirely wrong in their reforms. The CC would, IMHO, have done much better to try to work with Luther as much as they could rather than reacting angrily and kicking him out. I see all those traditions as being co-equal parts of the universal (“small-c” catholic) church that Jesus founded. Where is the church that Jesus founded? It’s everywhere His followers, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, meet.
 
Izdaari said:
Yes and no. I do believe the CC is part of the church Jesus Christ established, and an important and valuable part at that. But I think the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox have just as much claim. And I think Luther and Calvin were not entirely wrong in their reforms. The CC would, IMHO, have done much better to try to work with Luther as much as they could rather than reacting angrily and kicking him out. I see all those traditions as being co-equal parts of the universal (“small-c” catholic) church that Jesus founded. Where is the church that Jesus founded? It’s everywhere His followers, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, meet.
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It’s your belief that the church founded by Jesus is comprised of all churches, regardless of denomination. I don’t see how, but OK.👍

Which of the following churches, in your opinion, did the authors of the NT belong:

Eastern Orthodox Church

Oriental Orthodox Church

Presbyterian Church

Lutheran Church

Or one of the other Protestant Churches

Perhaps Luther too could have tried a little harder to work with the CC? Of course I wasn’t there so I cannot be certain as to what happened. 🤷
 
joe370 said:
It’s your belief that the church founded by Jesus is comprised of all churches, regardless of denomination. I don’t see how, but OK.👍

Which of the following churches, in your opinion, did the authors of the NT belong:

Eastern Orthodox Church

Oriental Orthodox Church

Presbyterian Church

Lutheran Church

Or one of the other Protestant Churches

Perhaps Luther too could have tried a little harder to work with the CC? Of course I wasn’t there so I cannot be certain as to what happened. 🤷
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Your question doesn’t make sense. How can you belong to something that did not yet exist?

It’s the same as asking, “Which Virginia did the first English settlers belong? Virginia or West Virginia?”… uh, there was no West Virginia… So, neither! They belong to THE Virginia Colony of 1607.

So yeah. They belong to THE Church of Christ of the 1st Century, regardless of how that church got splintered in later days.

But, I doubt that’s what your question really is. Your question, I think, is more in the lines of - who retained the authority of succession? And, in that question my friend, every denomination will raise their hands and say - “Over here!”. In other words - the answer is - whatever your faith tells you.
 
joe370 said:
It’s your belief that the church founded by Jesus is comprised of all churches, regardless of denomination. I don’t see how, but OK.👍

Which of the following churches, in your opinion, did the authors of the NT belong:

Eastern Orthodox Church

Oriental Orthodox Church

Presbyterian Church

Lutheran Church

Or one of the other Protestant Churches

Perhaps Luther too could have tried a little harder to work with the CC? Of course I wasn’t there so I cannot be certain as to what happened. 🤷
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pinay said:
Your question doesn’t make sense. How can you belong to something that did not yet exist?

It’s the same as asking, “Which Virginia did the first English settlers belong? Virginia or West Virginia?”… uh, there was no West Virginia… So, neither! They belong to THE Virginia Colony of 1607.

So yeah. They belong to THE Church of Christ of the 1st Century, regardless of how that church got splintered in later days.

But, I doubt that’s what your question really is. Your question, I think, is more in the lines of - who retained the authority of succession? And, in that question my friend, every denomination will raise their hands and say - “Over here!”. In other words - the answer is - whatever your faith tells you.
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As Pinay said, how could they belong to any of those churches, since those churches didn’t even exist yet?

Well, of course except for John the Baptist, who was a Baptist. It says so right in the Bible. 😉

And I agree that perhaps Luther could have tried a little harder to work with the CC also. He was a notoriously stubborn man.

Pinay also raises the question of valid apostolic succession, which of course Catholics and Orthodox claim to have, and so also do Anglicans, the Polish National Catholic Church and the Union of Utrecht. Of that group, Anglicans and Utrecht appeal to me the most. At least some Lutherans claim to have it too, though I’m less clear on exactly how. Most other Protestants aren’t too concerned, and would say that following the faith of the apostles is the important thing, not a chain of laying on of hands. And of course each denomination seems to think they are the most faithful to that. I don’t have any answers on that, but at least I know the questions.
 
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