Church to which the authors of scripture belonged...?

[pinay]

No you are incorrect, the "Universal (synonymous with catholic) started at Pentecost.

Define Universal Christian or Catholic Church then.

Answer these Questions:

1.) Was Jesus present in the Old Testament? Or more specifically, was Moses Christian?

If Moses was not Christian, then are you saying that he did not believe in Jesus Christ?

2.) If the Catholic Church started at Pentecost and only salvation comes within the Catholic Church, do you then believe that Moses is not saved?

Sometimes you have to remove the blinders of elitist religion to see God’s work in the plan of our salvation.

 

[Radical]

Define Universal Christian or Catholic Church then.

Answer these Questions:

1.) Was Jesus present in the Old Testament? Or more specifically, was Moses Christian?

If Moses was not Christian, then are you saying that he did not believe in Jesus Christ?

2.) If the Catholic Church started at Pentecost and only salvation comes within the Catholic Church, do you then believe that Moses is not saved?

Sometimes you have to remove the blinders of elitist religion to see God’s work in the plan of our salvation.

here is something from the second epistle credited to Clememt of Rome (that you might find interesting):

So, then, brethren, if we do the will of our Father God, we shall be members of the first church, the spiritual,— that which was created before sun and moon; but if we shall not do the will of the Lord, we shall come under the Scripture which says, “My house became a den of robbers.” Jeremiah 7:11 So, then, let us elect to belong to the church of life, that we may be saved. I think not that you are ignorant that the living church is the body of Christ (for the Scripture, says, “God created man male and female;” Genesis 1:27; cf. Ephesians 5:22-23 the male is Christ, the female the church,) and that the Books and the Apostles teach that the church is not of the present, but from the beginning.

 

[Stephen168]

here is something from the second epistle credited to Clememt of Rome (that you might find interesting):

So, then, brethren, if we do the will of our Father God, we shall be members of the first church, the spiritual,— that which was created before sun and moon; but if we shall not do the will of the Lord, we shall come under the Scripture which says, “My house became a den of robbers.” Jeremiah 7:11 So, then, let us elect to belong to the church of life, that we may be saved. I think not that you are ignorant that the living church is the body of Christ (for the Scripture, says, “God created man male and female;” Genesis 1:27; cf. Ephesians 5:22-23 the male is Christ, the female the church,) and that the Books and the Apostles teach that the church is not of the present, but from the beginning.

and it continues

“The church being spiritual, was made manifest in the flesh of Christ, signifying to us that if any one of us shall preserve it in the flesh and corrupt it not, he shall receive it in the Holy Spirit. For this flesh is the type of the spirit; no one, therefore, having corrupted the type, will receive afterwards the antitype. Therefore is it, then, that He saith, brethren, “Preserve ye the flesh, that ye may become partakers of the spirit.” If we say that the flesh is the church and the spirit Christ, then it follows that he who shall offer outrage to the flesh is guilty of outrage on the church. Such an one, therefore, will not partake of the spirit, which is Christ. Such is the life and immortality, which this flesh may afterwards receive, the Holy Spirit cleaving to it; and no one can either express or utter what things the Lord hath prepared for His elect.”

 

[pinay]

here is something from the second epistle credited to Clememt of Rome (that you might find interesting):

So, then, brethren, if we do the will of our Father God, we shall be members of the first church, the spiritual,— that which was created before sun and moon; but if we shall not do the will of the Lord, we shall come under the Scripture which says, “My house became a den of robbers.” Jeremiah 7:11 So, then, let us elect to belong to the church of life, that we may be saved. I think not that you are ignorant that the living church is the body of Christ (for the Scripture, says, “God created man male and female;” Genesis 1:27; cf. Ephesians 5:22-23 the male is Christ, the female the church,) and that the Books and the Apostles teach that the church is not of the present, but from the beginning.

and it continues

“The church being spiritual, was made manifest in the flesh of Christ, signifying to us that if any one of us shall preserve it in the flesh and corrupt it not, he shall receive it in the Holy Spirit. For this flesh is the type of the spirit; no one, therefore, having corrupted the type, will receive afterwards the antitype. Therefore is it, then, that He saith, brethren, “Preserve ye the flesh, that ye may become partakers of the spirit.” If we say that the flesh is the church and the spirit Christ, then it follows that he who shall offer outrage to the flesh is guilty of outrage on the church. Such an one, therefore, will not partake of the spirit, which is Christ. Such is the life and immortality, which this flesh may afterwards receive, the Holy Spirit cleaving to it; and no one can either express or utter what things the Lord hath prepared for His elect.”

PERFECT!

Yes, yes, it is in the Catholic teachings.

Therefore, back to the original question… What Church does the authors of scripture belong?

The same Church that was from the beginning of Man - not just the Church that existed at the Pentecost.

Which of the various denominations we have now is THE church that was from the beginning of Man? Now, that’s the interesting question…

 

[Matthew_Holford]

1.) Was Jesus present in the Old Testament?

YES!!! The Old Testament is the Divine Word of God. Jesus is one of the three Divine Persons in the Godhead.

Or more specifically, was Moses Christian?

The Christian Church did not exist at the time of Moses.

If Moses was not Christian, then are you saying that he did not believe in Jesus Christ?

Moses did not know of Christ.

If the Catholic Church started at Pentecost and only salvation comes within the Catholic Church, do you then believe that Moses is not saved?

So, you are saying that if you lived before Christ’s mission on Earth that you cannot be saved?

Sometimes you have to remove the blinders of elitist religion to see God’s work in the plan of our salvation.

A lesson that your particular sect needs to learn.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

PERFECT!

Yes, yes, it is in the Catholic teachings.

Therefore, back to the original question… What Church does the authors of scripture belong?

The same Church that was from the beginning of Man - not just the Church that existed at the Pentecost.

Which of the various denominations is it now? Now, that’s the “real” question…

The authors of scripture may not all be Christians because they lived at a time before Christ’s earthly mission. However, scripture is the Divine Word of God inspired in the human writers of scripture by the Holy Spirit. It is that God who founded the Church. It is that God who gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven to His Church. It is that God that gave His Church the authority to bind and loose. That Church is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the one that has existed without any break in succession from the day of Pentecost. It is the Catholic Church that has the pedigree. It is not something that was founded by a mortal human being in the 1830’s.

 

[Stephen168]

and it continues

"The church being spiritual, was made manifest in the flesh of Christ, signifying to us that if any one of us shall preserve it in the flesh and corrupt it not, he shall receive it in the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, back to the original question… What Church does the authors of scripture belong?

The same Church that was from the beginning of Man - not just the Church that existed at the Pentecost.

It is the same church.

 

[pinay]

Moses did not know of Christ.

Not true. Isaiah was not the first Old Testament figure that knows of Christ. And as a Trinitarian, it is even more clear. For Christ is one with God in the Holy Trinity.

So, you are saying that if you lived before Christ’s mission on Earth that you cannot be saved?

That’s what I’m asking you. Because somebody said that the Catholic Church started at Pentecost and having been Catholic for 30 years, I know that the Catholic Church teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. So, if you died before Pentecost, then how are you saved?

A lesson that your particular sect needs to learn.

Agree. All religious organizations need to learn it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Pinay the Catholic Church began at Pentecost. Its structure was defined by Our Lord with Peter as the rock to whom the keys of heaven were given, and he and the apostles were sent out to share the Good News of Christ and of our salvation.

As God gave Moses His designs in how He wanted to be worshipped and not man made worship, so did Our Lord God provide us the new Memorial, the Mass, where we truly consume the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ truly present in the Eucharist, this teaching going back to the Last Supper.

Note that the keys are for opening heaven, and what Peter binds on earth is bound in heaven, and we do not have ever changing doctrines and dogmas.

God is the Unmoved Mover. Three in One.

God is Love and His nature is relationship. Christ is the mind of God through which the universe was made through the Holy Spirit.

Holy Trinity is communion. And we experience the fullness of communion when we enter into the life of the Holy Trinity through the Word of God Made Flesh at Eucharist in union with the Holy Father, and all bishops in communion with him throughout the world, our bishops representing the faith of believers.

Catholic baptism is used in Protestant churches, and subsequently we consider the Protestants as our separated brethren; their baptism makes them part of the universal, apostolic Church.

The Church is sustained by Christ Himself through the Holy Spirit.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Word of God is spoken through mortal men, and Scripture itself has several levels of understanding.

The Church alone is the true interpreter of Sacred Scripture, every part connected to other, not divorced, unconnected parts that some times can be used to create other interpretations that do not bring us fully into the life of Christ and subsequently full communion with God and Church.

The Church interprets through the action of the Holy Spirit that has never left us, through the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ witnessed by the 12 Apostles.

 

[KathleenGee]

After the dismantling of Christianity and its sacred unity, and the Church realigned herself along side this tragic reality, when it comes to someone’s salvation, God alone can judge.

Only God can judge the human heart. Christ’s action of grace is constantly at work, in spite of the world around us, He is always at work making things new and restored…all things.

 

[pinay]

The authors of scripture may not all be Christians because they lived at a time before Christ’s earthly mission. However, scripture is the Divine Word of God inspired in the human writers of scripture by the Holy Spirit. It is that God who founded the Church. It is that God who gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven to His Church. It is that God that gave His Church the authority to bind and loose. That Church is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the one that has existed without any break in succession from the day of Pentecost. It is the Catholic Church that has the pedigree. It is not something that was founded by a mortal human being in the 1830’s.

I will guarantee you this Matthew that if you use this statement to prove against an LDS that the Catholic Church is the catholic church, then you’re going to be at a disadvantage.

If you’re talking to an LDS, this is a more powerful statement:
The catholic church is the one that has existed without any break in succession from the day of Adam.

And if you want to then state that the Catholic Church is now that catholic church then you’ll have a better chance at convincing an LDS.

Because, an LDS will just go back to you and say: If you believe that Christ is present in the Trinity, then why are there 2 churches - the church before Pentecost and the church after Pentecost? Was there no Trinity before Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem?

To which you will have to reply with - the church was restored at the Pentecost…

Which an LDS would just then reply with - which went into apostacy at the time of Constantine and got restored again in 1830…

Make sense?

As a Catholic, you will need to bring catholic all the way to encompass the Old Testament. It is part of your Bible, is it not?

In the beginning was the Word… and all that.

 

[pinay]

After the dismantling of Christianity and its sacred unity, and the Church realigned herself along side this tragic reality, when it comes to someone’s salvation, God alone can judge.

Only God can judge the human heart. Christ’s action of grace is constantly at work, in spite of the world around us, He is always at work making things new and restored…all things.

And that’s what the LDS are always saying…

 

[KathleenGee]

Pinay,

In your response to Matthew…I doubt anything Matthew can say anything to you – a former Catholic, that will make you change your mind.

If I remember you correctly, you left the Catholic Church because you did not think the Catholics were nice.

Mormons are very nice people.

But being nice is something many pagans can do as well. Niceness makes a fine human being, nice people reflect on the goodness of God, but beyond that they do not tell us about Christ and Who He is – Christology.

Most of the times, people leave the Catholic Church because of personal issues, seldom because of doctrine. And the past 40 years of the Church, particularly in America have been tumultuous to say the least. We are working on now on welcoming back home fallen away Catholics, many of whom were poorly catechized.

As you may also recall, my husband is from the Philippines. He was baptized but received no catechesis. There is a problem in outlying areas regarding the lack of solid catechesis.

 

[KathleenGee]

The other thing…There is no restored Christianity. Restoration happens when a person begins to live out the divine grace baptism and the Eucharist within their soul.

Constantine did not receive Christian baptism until a few days before his death. This spin is coming out on sites like World Net Daily, the History Channel, etc. You find alot of thinking like this in America. The farther sects get away from their Catholic roots, the more difficult it is to come back.

I would not believe what LDS teaches you because in part it is based on judging people and condemning them, although you say the LDS do not do so. If it did not have the Catholic Church to focus on and invalidate and malign, aka their recent King James tv show, part of their self-empowerment would be gone.

Instead, Catholicism is based on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the life in Him He is offering us. We do not need to put down other religions as such, because we are in restoration with the Lord every day.

Check out today’s thread, ‘LDS and ancient records’…

Catholicism is focused not on the book, but on salvation history of a peoples. Pentecost is the beginning of new parameters of faith in God…as a people…this new dimension of God now Christ among us in the Church.

 

[Newsy]

Because somebody said that the Catholic Church started at Pentecost and having been Catholic for 30 years, I know that the Catholic Church teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. So, if you died before Pentecost, then how are you saved?

Please prove your first statement, " I know that the Catholic Church teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church". This is incorrect. Please show me where it states this. The Catholic Church recognizes it’s life and sacraments as the normal way for one to enter heaven, but does not claim to know whether those outside the Catholic Church attain salvation. The Church teaches that rejection of the Church is rejection of Christ’s teachings, therefore you soul is in danger. So, I ask you to please reference your statement, b/c I think you are mistaken.

If you don’t know how the patriarchs were saved, we just need to look at Scripture.“By means of the Spirit, Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20 Long ago they did not obey. God was patient while Noah was building the ark. He waited, but only a few people went into the ark. A total of eight were saved by means of water.” 1 Peter 3:19-20. This is referring to Christ’s ministry to those in “sheol”, so we see they have been given the opportunity for salvation.

Christianity is the completion of Judaism. To say Moses was a Christian is problematic, b/c he never knew the Earthly Incarnation of God we call Jesus Christ. Moses couldn’t have followed Jesus, b/c the Incarnation had not yet come. Moses knew God, this is true, but it is unknown whether he saw the Holy Spirit. So, we must stick to what we do know, which is that Moses was a Hebrew. The Mosaic Covenant gives the Hebrews the Blood Sacrifices that make up early Judaism. So, we can safely say that Moses was an early Jew.

Pinay said, “If you’re talking to an LDS, this is a more powerful statement:
The catholic church is the one that has existed without any break in succession from the day of Adam.” The problem is that there is no succession other than the faithful remnant in the OT, that is Judaism, until the time of Christ. In the fullness of time, God became Incarnate, the person of Jesus Christ, to fulfill the Old Covenant. Thereby, bringing the New Covenant and Christianity to the World.

Pinay said"As a Catholic, you will need to bring catholic all the way to encompass the Old Testament. It is part of your Bible, is it not?". This is what the Christianity (specifically the Catholic Church) believes, we are the fulfillment of the OT, throught Christ the Old Covenant was fulfilled and we are now under the New Covenant. “God called that covenant “new.” So he has made the first one out of date. And what is out of date and getting older will soon disappear.”- Hebrews 8:13. This text explains that we are no longer under the Old Covenant when we enter into Christianity. Therefore, we don’t need succession in the Old Covenant, we need it to be fulfilled, which it was by the person of Jesus Christ.

Pinay, please stop with the straw men of your previous posts and address what others are saying, it does no good to argue both sides and say you won. See post #52.

 

[KathleenGee]

Newsy…

Thanks for comments…she mentions they don’t accept the Church of the past but are more amenable to the Church today…If I understand her right…Interesting to see what the LDS are teaching these converts now for her to come to such a comment…

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I will guarantee you this Matthew that if you use this statement to prove against an LDS that the Catholic Church is the catholic church, then you’re going to be at a disadvantage.

If you’re talking to an LDS, this is a more powerful statement:
The catholic church is the one that has existed without any break in succession from the day of Adam.

And if you want to then state that the Catholic Church is now that catholic church then you’ll have a better chance at convincing an LDS.

Because, an LDS will just go back to you and say: If you believe that Christ is present in the Trinity, then why are there 2 churches - the church before Pentecost and the church after Pentecost? Was there no Trinity before Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem?

To which you will have to reply with - the church was restored at the Pentecost…

Which an LDS would just then reply with - which went into apostacy at the time of Constantine and got restored again in 1830…

Make sense?

As a Catholic, you will need to bring catholic all the way to encompass the Old Testament. It is part of your Bible, is it not?

In the beginning was the Word… and all that.

I will not argue these points with an LDS. There is no point. There’s nothing that I can say that will convince you that the Catholic Church is the true Christian Church. I also know that many LDS are trained in proselytising people. I am not trained in Catholic Apologetics. The fact that I am not trained to give the exact teaching of the Catholic Church in response to the claims made by an organisation such as LDS does not mean those teachings are any less valid.

 

[A_G]

The Catholic Church, starting from Pentecost.

 

[KathleenGee]

To answer your question, Pinay…'Under ancient law prophets and priests sought form God revelation and visions which they indeed needed, for faith had as yet no firm foundation and the gospel law had not yet been established. Their seeking and God’s responses were necessary. He spoke to them at one time through visions and revelations, at another in signs and symbols. But however he responded and what he said and revealed were mysteries of our holy faith, either glimpses of the whole or sure movements towards it.

But now that faith is rooted in Christ, and the law of the gospel has been proclaimed in this time of grace, there is no need to seek him in the former manner, nor for him so to respond. By giving us, as he did, His Son, His only Word, he has in that one Word said everything. There is no need for further revelation.

This is the true meaning of Paul’s words in Hebrews, when he urges them to abandon their earlier ways of conversing with God, as laid down in the law of Moses, and to set their eyes on Christ alone…(Paul saying God has spoken to us through His Son)…Although he had spoken but partially through the prophets he has now said everything in Christ. He has given us everything, his own Son.

Therefore, anyone who wished to question God or to seek some new vision or revelation from him would commit an offense, for instead of focusing his eyes entirely on Christ he would be desiring something other than Christ, or beyond Him.

God could then answer: This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased; hear him.’ In my Word I have already said everything. Fix your eyes on Him alone for in Him I have revealed all and in Him you will find more than you could ever ask or desire.

…and when they sought anything of me they were but seeking and hoping for the Christ in whom every good, as the whole teaching of the evangelists and apostles clearly testifies.’…Treatise on ‘The Ascent on Mount Carmel’, by St. John of the Cross, priest.

Any belief system that tells you the universal, apostolic Catholic faith in Christ is false or apostate…meaning turning away from Christ Himself – is a lie.

You do not need human niceness.

You need the truth of Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word Who will fulfill all your desires no human niceness can satisfy.