Church Veil Reactions

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Ummm…

Anyways! I’ve got the latest fashion trend when it comes to veils. I bought one in black, brown and white! You know, it JUST came out like… a few years ago 🙂
 
Famule said:
And the Church says…With respect to the new Code of Canon Law of 1983, canons 2 and 5 reprise substantially those of the Codex of 1917: “liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the norms of the Code.”
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And when queried on it, the Holy See said that it was a matter of discipline. The Holy Father offers Mass in the presence of and Holy Communion to unveiled women (or one’s with no head covering)…

Let me ask the “traditionalists” this…are you saying that it is a matter of salvation or damnation if a woman doesn’t cover her head for Mass?
 
Famule said:
And the Church says…With respect to the new Code of Canon Law of 1983, canons 2 and 5 reprise substantially those of the Codex of 1917: “liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the norms of the Code.”
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You can see your argument addressed here:

jimmyakin.org/2004/07/head_coverings_.html

Further, in 1976, the CDF issued an instruction on women’s ordination which also mentions veiling as a mutable discipline:

“Another objection [by women priest advocates] is based upon the transitory character that one claims to see today in some of the prescriptions of Saint Paul concerning women, and upon the difficulties that some aspect of his teaching raise in this regard. But it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on the head (1 Cor. 11:2-6); such requirements no longer have a normative value (no. 4, emphasis added).”
 
It really shouldn’t be an issue and I don’t see the reasons why this is still being argued. St. Paul is quite explicit in his epistles. It may not mean my salvation but I’d sure hate to incur the wrath of St. Paul. 🙂
 
I have to admit I’m not afraid of St Paul, his wrath or otherwise. 👍 I find myself very fond of him. Wouldnt be afraid of voicing my thoughts to him either. He is a grown man and a Saint at that. He gets what it means to love the Lord and be His disciple. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
It really shouldn’t be an issue and I don’t see the reasons why this is still being argued. St. Paul is quite explicit in his epistles. It may not mean my salvation but I’d sure hate to incur the wrath of St. Paul. 🙂
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No, it really shouldn’t be an issue, since the Church has addressed it, but “traditionalists” keep bringing it up, and going on and on and on about it, and browbeating perfectly orthodox Catholic women over the head with it.
 
ncjohn said:
This just reitterates the same mistaken notion about “force of law” that nearly all of those conclusions make.

The fact is that headcovering is an immemorial custom. That is a fact and a correct conclusion. Immemorial customs cannot be abrogated and retain “force of law”. That again is a fact.

What is not a fact is the interpretation of “force of law”. Immemorial customs having force of law means that the right to continue headcovering cannot be abrogated.

The easiest parallel to understand this in is the issue of being allowed to kneel for communion even though the norm in the U.S. is to stand. When challenged, the Vatican reitterated that kneeling for communion is an immemorial custom and that nobody can be denied communion for invoking their right to kneel, nor can the be considered disobedient for doing so even though there is a specific norm. The immemorial custom does not require kneeling for communion but simply retains the right to do so.

Similarly, the immemorial custom of covering one’s head does not create a requirement to do so. If it did, there would have been no need for the 1917 canon requiring it. But the right to veil cannot be abrogated even though the requirement that was present in the 1917 code was abrogated, along with the entire 1917 code, by the very specific provision of the 1983 Code.

It is indeed a tradition of value and hopefully we can reach a point where women will do so when they feel called to it without fear of feeling out of place. It is a calling though like any other pious practice and not one that is necessarily universal. Wearing a headcovering does not make one any holier, nor does not covering make one less holy.

Peace,
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Very clearly and beautifully stated. 👍
 
I am scared to wear a veil to mass, too, although I would like to. No one in my parish does and I don’t know if my priest would like it. I went to a Latin mass last weekend at an SSPX chapel and I wore one, but so did everyone else (women) and it was not scary at all. I wish there was a precedent, such as the Archbishop stating that he promotes women doing this or something so that I wouldn’t feel like such a chicken. Mostly, I wish I had my husband’s support for this, and then I think I could do it. But he thinks I am a zealot already. Anyhow, from reading on this forum, it seems like there are a lot of young women interested in doing this. This makes my heart happy because a return to Orthodoxy in the faith may be in the cards after all! I am becoming more and more traditional everyday, and I want my son raised in the fullness of the faith. I applaud you for wearing your veil, and I will be praying for the strength to do so myself. God always makes a path for me when I ask, even if it’s through the back door or over the river and through the woods. So, I will pray until I can do it. I was wondering about going to a weekday mass at a conservative parish and trying it out there. Then, no one would know me anyway and DH wouldn’t be there.
 
🍿

My kerchief is pink satin, with flowers on it. Really pretty for May. My daughter wears a blue one. 😃 (This is me, trying to lighten up the thread a little.)
 
nurselisa99 said:
I am scared to wear a veil to mass, too, although I would like to. No one in my parish does and I don’t know if my priest would like it. I went to a Latin mass last weekend at an SSPX chapel and I wore one, but so did everyone else (women) and it was not scary at all. I wish there was a precedent, such as the Archbishop stating that he promotes women doing this or something so that I wouldn’t feel like such a chicken. Mostly, I wish I had my husband’s support for this, and then I think I could do it. But he thinks I am a zealot already. Anyhow, from reading on this forum, it seems like there are a lot of young women interested in doing this. This makes my heart happy because a return to Orthodoxy in the faith may be in the cards after all! I am becoming more and more traditional everyday, and I want my son raised in the fullness of the faith. I applaud you for wearing your veil, and I will be praying for the strength to do so myself. God always makes a path for me when I ask, even if it’s through the back door or over the river and through the woods. So, I will pray until I can do it. I was wondering about going to a weekday mass at a conservative parish and trying it out there. Then, no one would know me anyway and DH wouldn’t be there.
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I was reading back into this thread and it looks like the discussion changed to a debate about covering. I just wanted to add that it is in my opinion, up to any woman if she wants to do this or not. And, it doesn’t mean anything about the holiness of the person at all. It is in my case, that many are holier than I am without question that might be in church in jeans and a t-shirt. I don’t have any issue with that. I think it is precisely because I struggle to be holy that I want to wear a veil. Actually, let me rephrase, I don’t really want to wear one, but I think God wants me to. Does that make sense? But arguing about this seems a bit silly because we are all in this together, no? I just wish I had the courage to do this at my church and was interested in reading other women’s experiences with this. God calls us all to foster peace in our environment “Peace I give you, my peace I leave with you”. Just something to think about. Whether from under a veil or not, I love and respect you all. 🙂
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Hmm, you or the Church? Guess I’ll go with (drum roll)…the Church.
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If you went with the Church you’d agree with what that poster said. The Church today is going against Tradition.
 
Marie5890 said:
I have to admit I’m not afraid of St Paul, his wrath or otherwise. 👍 I find myself very fond of him. Wouldnt be afraid of voicing my thoughts to him either. He is a grown man and a Saint at that. He gets what it means to love the Lord and be His disciple. 🙂
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Personally I don’t care whether women have their heads covered or not. They can wear curlers and it wouldn’t bother me because I’ve seen worse. But it pains me to see the trouble the Church went through to vernacularize and expand the readings in the Mass and then have everyone ignore them to their heart’s content. I once went with a woman who was squirming in her seat when the reading about women being submissive to men came around. Why have the readings at all? Even the Pope falls asleep during them.
 
Marie5890 said:
I have to admit I’m not afraid of St Paul, his wrath or otherwise. 👍 I find myself very fond of him. Wouldnt be afraid of voicing my thoughts to him either. He is a grown man and a Saint at that. He gets what it means to love the Lord and be His disciple. 🙂
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God’s wrath is what we should fear.
 
nurselisa99 said:
I am scared to wear a veil to mass, too, although I would like to. No one in my parish does and I don’t know if my priest would like it. I went to a Latin mass last weekend at an SSPX chapel and I wore one, but so did everyone else (women) and it was not scary at all. I wish there was a precedent, such as the Archbishop stating that he promotes women doing this or something so that I wouldn’t feel like such a chicken. Mostly, I wish I had my husband’s support for this, and then I think I could do it. But he thinks I am a zealot already. Anyhow, from reading on this forum, it seems like there are a lot of young women interested in doing this. This makes my heart happy because a return to Orthodoxy in the faith may be in the cards after all! I am becoming more and more traditional everyday, and I want my son raised in the fullness of the faith. I applaud you for wearing your veil, and I will be praying for the strength to do so myself. God always makes a path for me when I ask, even if it’s through the back door or over the river and through the woods. So, I will pray until I can do it. I was wondering about going to a weekday mass at a conservative parish and trying it out there. Then, no one would know me anyway and DH wouldn’t be there.
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Well, you ought not be attending upon what an excommunicate like LeFebreve said, esp. as it relates to the Church, much less attending an illicit SSPX service, but you shouldn’t feel afraid to wear your veil to Mass. Some women wear the veil at my parish and no one gives them a hard time. I don’t know what to say about your husband. I can’t imagine any man giving a woman a hard time about something she felt strongly about, but then again, it was St. Paul who had something to say about veiling AND submission to husbands by wives.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
If you went with the Church you’d agree with what that poster said. The Church today is going against Tradition.
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No, the Church isn’t going against Tradition (with a big “T”) because the Church can’t go against it. The Church has dispensed with A tradition (small "t’) as it has the authority to do.

You still haven’t responded to this. If what Saint Paul said about veiling or covering is an immutable (that means “unchanging”) truth, then what are we to make of our Lord’s admonition to “call no man father?” Wouldn’t THAT also be an immutable truth, out of the mouth of the Savior Himself? Yet, as I’ve said, we call our priests “father,” we call the Pope “Holy Father.” If it’s a matter of discipline, the Church has the authority to change it, alter it, dispense with it.

You really need to read up on some of the basics of Catholicism.
 
Asking again:

“Let me ask the “traditionalists” this…are you saying that it is a matter of salvation or damnation if a woman doesn’t cover her head for Mass?”
 
nurselisa99 said:
I am scared to wear a veil to mass, too, although I would like to. No one in my parish does and I don’t know if my priest would like it. I went to a Latin mass last weekend at an SSPX chapel and I wore one, but so did everyone else (women) and it was not scary at all. I wish there was a precedent, such as the Archbishop stating that he promotes women doing this or something so that I wouldn’t feel like such a chicken. Mostly, I wish I had my husband’s support for this, and then I think I could do it. But he thinks I am a zealot already. Anyhow, from reading on this forum, it seems like there are a lot of young women interested in doing this. This makes my heart happy because a return to Orthodoxy in the faith may be in the cards after all! I am becoming more and more traditional everyday, and I want my son raised in the fullness of the faith. I applaud you for wearing your veil, and I will be praying for the strength to do so myself. God always makes a path for me when I ask, even if it’s through the back door or over the river and through the woods. So, I will pray until I can do it. I was wondering about going to a weekday mass at a conservative parish and trying it out there. Then, no one would know me anyway and DH wouldn’t be there.
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Just do it. Go all out in your own church and you won’t regret it 🙂 People may stare the first time but they will get used to it- I’ve found. I think you already have made up your mind to do it 🙂

Life is too short- NO REGRETS!
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Asking again:

“Let me ask the “traditionalists” this…are you saying that it is a matter of salvation or damnation if a woman doesn’t cover her head for Mass?”
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No. The Church has been too ambiguous about this matter in recent years for not wearing a head covering to be considered a sin. If the Church were more clear with regard to the matter, and if she were to affirm that not wearing a head covering is indeed a sinful thing for a woman to do, then yes of course it would be a sin of disobedience.
 
ProVobis said:
Now that you mention it, prior to Vatican II and even in the 60’s and 70’s Catholics considered themselves to be God-fearing, a term you seldom hear today.
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Did they? That’s a term I associate almost exclusively with Protestantism, like “Bible-thumping.”
 
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