Church without community

[TheLittleLady]

I would not say that.

We had our Lessons and Carols last night. At least half the people who attended were not Catholics, but, from area congregations who make this an annual tradition.

Cookies and hot chocolate in the Hall after. Someone finally had to announce “the party is over, you don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here” because those of us who had to clean up needed to get up for work tomorrow!

Fellowship is spontaneous. Put people in the same place, have something to nibble, and you have pop-up community.

 

[TC3033]

Fellowship is spontaneous. Put people in the same place, have something to nibble, and you have pop-up community.

If people show up/stay. When we were doing family faith formation at my wife’s parish, I noticed that the only people that stayed after Mass for coffee and whatever were the families that “had” to because it was family day.

I think they were trying really hard to make something after the priest “blew up” the one really good fellowship thing they had.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

This Evangelical Protestant fellowship you describe is something I miss about my old home church where I grew up. I love the Catholic Church (would never go back) and have found fellowship with other Catholics in my city – but have never found a “parish family” like my old church family. I miss the church of 80 people where everyone knew each other and noticed if you weren’t there on Sunday, where we had monthly potlucks downstairs in the basement, mid-week prayer meeting and/or Bible study, the occasional “progressive supper,” Christmas caroling, and so on. I guess that’s a somewhat rosy view because there were disagreements among members, too, and people who left because they were upset about something, but overall it was a great church family.

Our current Catholic parish is very nice and I am not complaining about it, but it’s not possible to replicate that small, close-knit church dynamic (unless your Catholic church actually is that small)

 

[EnglishTeacher]

So back to the original article, I thought it was very interesting. On the one hand, good for that guy (speaking sincerely) that he has such a great group of friends from a different background than his. It sounds like they all really support each other, and that he also has many opportunities to share or discuss his Christian faith with them. On the other hand, it is too bad that he has been unable to find a similar community in his local church because it is important to have close friendships with other Christians, too, so that we can encourage each other in our walk with Christ.

In his time of life, though, these types of friend communities can come and go. For about two years in my later twenties/early 30s, I was part of a close-knit friend group much like the one he describes, except we were all Catholic. We would get together 2-3 times a week for dinner, drinks, games, trivia night; meet each other at Mass for holy days; help each other move, etc. Those were some of the best years of my life, but I knew even at the time it was not going to last forever, because, being young and single, we were all at a stage in our life that was likely to change at any time. And it did. Some people in the group moved away, others got married and shortly after had kids. We still try to stay in touch and some of us still get together a few times a month, which is great; but the dynamic changes when people move on to the next phase of life. I don’t know where I was going with that, but I guess all that was to say that even close-knit communities don’t usually last forever. Modern life is so fast-paced and busy that it is challenging to find and keep real friendships, and that is a problem for almost everyone, church-goers or not.

 

[Peeps]

I’m guessing that Peeps’ experience was with a smaller Protestant church, where there is a big focus on personal contact and visiting and shared activities both as a way of keeping the church going and keeping people in the church.

Depends on what you mean by “smaller.” My current parish has several thousand members, but most of the other parishes in my city (which I play for often) have around 200-500 members.

I grew up in a church of 500 members (and many people who weren’t members, but attended anyway). I would say that around 1000 people were involved with that church back then. (Now it’s down to 150 people.)

From childhood and my teen years, I loved the “fellowship” at this church, and I am still friends with many of the members (the ones who were in my age group–interestingly, several of them have become Catholic, too!). I still attend funerals (and pay piano sometimes!) at that church for older saints who were my Sunday School teachers and youth group sponsors, and I always meet up with my old church friends and it’s like have never been apart.

My husband grew up in one of the first “megachurches”–there were several thousand in his church,and he and his parents experienced the same type of “fellowship.” His parents used to host people in their homes often, and were active in all kinds of activities, including an annual “Men’s Wild Game Feed”–sounds kinda fun, right? The men brought in “game” from their autumn hunts, and cooked it up!

In college, I attended a church of around 250-300, and it was heaven on earth! The members decided to make college students their “mission,” and they had a potluck every week, and told the college students to just come and not worry about spending money to bring something. During the college semesters, their church doubled in size due to the presence of the college students!

In the first ten years that we were married and had small children, my husband and I attended a church that grew from 200 to 500 in those ten years, and we knew most of the people and LOVED them—it’s very hard for me to think about or write about that church because I loved it so much and had such a rich life and so many friends there. At least half of the people in that church were former Catholics, BTW.

When Catholics say that 'fellowship" isn’t important, they need to think about the fact that while they are saying that, their own people are walking away from Catholicism because they have no friends in their parishes and are lonely in a world where fellowship is of vital importance. Jesus established a BODY, a Church BODY, not just billions of individuals who all “do Catholic Christianity” on their own, just “me and Jesus.”

 

[Elf01]

When Catholics say that 'fellowship" isn’t important, they need to think about the fact that while they are saying that, their own people are walking away from Catholicism because they have no friends in their parishes and are lonely in a world where fellowship is of vital importance. Jesus established a BODY, a Church BODY, not just billions of individuals who all “do Catholic Christianity” on their own, just “me and Jesus.”

Agreed. Fellowship is not an end of itself, but if it keeps people in the Church who would otherwise leave it’s worth doing.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

When Catholics say that 'fellowship" isn’t important, they need to think about the fact that while they are saying that, their own people are walking away from Catholicism

It’s not really a case of fellowship being “not important” but that the worship service itself doesn’t and shouldn’t focus on fellowship.

Also, as we’ve already explained in the thread, one isn’t going to find fellowship at most Catholic churches by just going to Sunday Mass. One is going to have to find groups to join or spend time with and may have to try more than one because not all of them are going to be friendly, or have the type of people in them who want to be friends.

 

[Irishmom2]

I still have not had anyone explain to me what fellowship means that it cannot happen at a Catholic Church. Plenty of people have spoken about the great fellowship that happened at their former Protestant churches, but no one has explained why it cannot happen at a Catholic parish. If something is lacking, perhaps they can get the same thing going at their current parish.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I’ve talked many times about growing up as a traveling evangelist, so, I have had brief encounters with congregations of all sizes and many denominations.

Those who have 500 or fewer in attendance on Sunday morning (membership is always greater than attendance, in most denominations) AND who have only one Sunday morning service are where people do notice if you do not attend for a couple of weeks and someone will be calling you. It is not difficult to know, at least to say hello at the grocery, your fellow congregants. Pastor can know everyone by name.

Heck, at my parents’ CoC and my in-laws UMC they have attendance cards that you drop in the office. They know if you are there or not!

When it gets over 500 OR where there is a “9 AM Traditional Service, 11 AM Modern Praise and Worship Team Service”, it begins to get trickier. You don’t see someone, well, they likely went to the 11 AM this week. Add multi campus congregations and it gets even more complex. Your next door neighbor could attend every Sunday and you don’t see them because they are going to another campus or time service.

For a parish that has multiple weekend Masses, throw in a mass in another language, and you effectively have several different congregations meeting at the same building.

The Sat 5 PM congregation
The Sunday 8:30 congregation
The Sunday 11 AM congregation
The Spanish or Filipino or Korean or insert other ethnicity congregation
etc. Hard to know everyone.

At that point, most Protestant congregations have “cell groups” or “small group fellowship” or some other way to create a “church within a church”. This is where the difficulty comes up, because, in general, Protestants are better at volunteering and engagement than Catholics have been.

You start a group at the Parish that encourages small groups, like “Why Catholic?”, it goes great guns, then the new pastor arrives and it withers and dies.

It takes a very engaged pastor and many good volunteers

 

[TC3033]

It’s not really a case of fellowship being “not important” but that the worship service itself doesn’t and shouldn’t focus on fellowship

I don’t think that’s what anyone is saying…at all. I’ve been a non-Catholic Christian for over 40 years now and have never attended a church where the worship service was about fellowship.

The worship service was/is exactly that…but we fellowship outside in the gathering space and talk, have coffee, etc… before worship and then again after with bars, cookies, etc… the kids go out and play and maybe 80-90 percent “hang out” afterward. I believe this is the fellowship that we’re talking about and miss. On top of impromptu get togethers during the week or just helping each other out when in need.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The worship service was/is exactly that…but we fellowship outside in the gathering space and talk, have coffee, etc… before worship and then again after with bars, cookies, etc… the kids go out and play and maybe 80-90 percent “hang out”

We might not have cookies all the time, but all I know is that I went to an earlier Mass than usual today and there were so many Catholics fellowshipping afterwards in the aisles, vestibule, on the church steps, front walk and parking lot that I had to keep excusing myself and asking people to step aside so I could get to my car.

I think I’m done with these discussions because whatever Catholics say or do or whatever suggestions we give, someone is always going to complain, and have excuses for why they personally dont/ can’t make it any better. Everything from “I’m an introvert” to “too much alcohol at the events” to “my work schedule doesnt let me participate” to “the priest isnt helpful” etc. At some point I just have to say, sorry, I’m not seeing or having the problem, and take my leave.

 

[Peeps]

I still have not had anyone explain to me what fellowship means that it cannot happen at a Catholic Church. Plenty of people have spoken about the great fellowship that happened at their former Protestant churches, but no one has explained why it cannot happen at a Catholic parish. If something is lacking, perhaps they can get the same thing going at their current parish.

Irishmom2,

This from TC3033 's post:

I don’t think that’s what anyone is saying…at all. I’ve been a non-Catholic Christian for over 40 years now and have never attended a church where the worship service was about fellowship.

The worship service was/is exactly that…but we fellowship outside in the gathering space and talk, have coffee, etc… before worship and then again after with bars, cookies, etc… the kids go out and play and maybe 80-90 percent “hang out” afterward. I believe this is the fellowship that we’re talking about and miss. On top of impromptu get togethers during the week or just helping each other out when in need.

---- End of TC3033’s quote

And back to Peeps:

I honestly can’t explain it, and I am coming to believe that this is one reason why so many people reject the Catholic Church as the Church that Jesus founded.

When you can walk into an Evangelical Protestant church and be treated with love and care and everyone knows your name, and you get invited to people’s houses for meals or prayer meetings/refreshments, and you are asked if you in person (not by a survey) if you would be interested in joining the choir or going to the men’s “Honey Do” help time on Saturday morning, or join the ladies for their Spring Luncheon and Craft Session, or to a play date at someone’s house (when you have children)–and they don’t even fricken’ know you!–that’s the kind of thing that seems (notice I said, “seem”) supernatural, not of this world… and therefore, of God.

It’s just so unreal and amazing–I play at Protestant churches, and within minutes, I’m right at home. I know names, I know what they do for a living or if they have children or if they are suffering in some way–it’s not about a “meet and greet” time or “Friendship Circles” or even small groups–it’s just the way Evangelical Protestant churches are.

And I miss it. I don’t think I can create this kind of thing in my Catholic parish because I think it’s of God, and for some reason, God chooses not to operate that way in Catholic churches. Maybe because He (Jesus) is not Present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in Evangelical Protestant churches, God has decided to help them be a little more loving and friendly so that the people continue to maintain a relationship with Him.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I still have not had anyone explain to me what fellowship means that it cannot happen at a Catholic Church. Plenty of people have spoken about the great fellowship that happened at their former Protestant churches, but no one has explained why it cannot happen at a Catholic parish. If something is lacking, perhaps they can get the same thing going at their current parish.

I would think it could happen at Catholic Churches too, it’s just harder for some reason. Thinking of my own current parish, a few obstacles come to mind:

1. the fact that we have four Mass times when two would be fine (one on Saturday evening and one on Sunday morning). So the parish population is spread out more than it needs to be and many members never see each other. I understand that the priority in the Catholic Church is to have many Mass times to accommodate people’s schedules so that they can meet their Sunday obligation. This is a good thing, but it does present a greater challenge when trying to build community within the parish.
2. Frequent priest changes. If a parish is getting a new priest every few years, this often makes for instability in the parish. Projects or programs that one priest started or supported may not continue with the next priest, especially if the leadership change involves “clustering” with another parish. People don’t feel settled because they never know what could change in the parish in another couple of years. And then you have an influx of people coming and going because some like the new priest; others don’t. (And yes, the priest shortage is a strong argument for greater lay involvement, but it can still be hard if there is no stable leader at the helm.)

These are issues not usually present in smaller Protestant churches. They usually have just one Sunday morning service that the whole congregation attends. And when a pastor is assigned or chosen, it is expected that he will remain as the congregation’s leader for many years, often decades.

So I am not saying that Catholic parishes cannot be have “fellowship”; it’s just rarer because of the size of the typical Catholic parish, plus other factors. I am sure smaller Catholic parishes are more close-knit. And of course I am only speaking from my own anecdotal experience; others may have had different experiences.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I hope that after you retire, some travel will bring you to some friendly parishes

 

[Peeps]

These are issues not usually present in smaller Protestant churches. They usually have just one Sunday morning service that the whole congregation attends. And when a pastor is assigned or chosen, it is expected that he will remain as the congregation’s leader for many years, often decades.

Actually, in most Evangelical Protestant churches, Sundays are pretty packed up with activities!

Most Evangelical Protestants, and many Mainline and non-Denominational Protestants, have Sunday School on Sunday morning, which lasts about an hour. Then there is usually a half-hour of what is called “Coffee Time,” or “Fellowship Time” or “Meet and Greet,” or other names–it’s a time when the members can head down to their Fellowship Hall or another suitable room in the church building and have coffee, donuts, pastries, and sometimes a full breakfast! This is a lively time when the Christians talk and laugh, exchange invites to activities, and of course, eat goodies and drink coffee!

After this time (and sometimes this is held AFTER the Worship Service), the Protestants head to the Worship Service, which generally lasts at least 1.5 hours and sometimes longer if it is a Communion Sunday.

And many Protestant churches still hold a Traditional and a Contemporary Worship service.

After the Sunday School, Meet and Greet, and Worship Service, some Protestant churches hold their business meetings, or they have another “fellowship time” during which they finish up or divide up the leftover donuts, drink the rest of the coffee, and enjoy each other’s compnay.

Very few Protestant churches have activities in the afternoon or evening anymore, but there are still some, mainly the Fundamentalist Protestant churches, who also hold a Sunday evening service.

So I would say that “too many Masses” is not the reason for a lack of “fellowship” in Catholic parishes. I think that “fellowship” means something different to Catholics then it does to Protestants. Protestants will have “fellowship” happening no matter what is going on in their church or in the outside world, while Catholics tend to have “fellowship” – well, that’s the point of this thread. I think that too many Catholics think of “Mass” as the Whole of their Religious Lives, and once they have “done Mass,” they forget all about the parish. Sorry, everyone. . . .