Church without kneelers

[TLM08]

I would love to see the Holy Father issue an immediate order of excommunication of any priest or bishop involved in these acts of vandalism to the house of God.

 

[KateD]

I believe that the directive now is that any churches in the Archdiocese of Chicago which are built or renovated must include kneelers. So I will anxiously await the renovation of my parish!

 

[Brendan]

Here in Detroit, Cardinal Dearden (archbishop during the 70’s) approved the designs for many new parishes that did not include kneelers.

Happily, his sucessor, Cardinal Szoka, reversed that decision, and not only are all new parishes required to have kneelers, but any parish that does not have them must include them if they undertake a renovation.

Cardinal Maida has continued Cardinal Szoka’s wise policy.

 

[PKinsale]

I think it is important to remember that kneeling as a sign of respect and subservience is particular to culture. Perhaps this is why the Church I attend here in Japan doesn’t even have kneelers, and never has. In fact, I’ve been to one church that didn’t even have pews, but tatami mats, and parishoners removed their shoes at the front door. Most folks stand during the prayers and offer bows at the consecration. In the western European context, If you feel you must kneel at certain points during the mass then, as others have suggested, kneel, but kneeling in and of itself does not automatically mean respect, and may have no meaning at all.

Tsuwano, thanks for the perspective. Is it a Roman Catholic church you attend? If so, is this allowed by the Vatican and the Japanese bishops as a proper cultural variant? The general instruction on the missal is quite clear on the matter that kneeling is required, but does allow some leeway.

 

[ethelzguy]

I am returning to the Catholic faith, having been away for over sixteen years. I now live in a new city and am attending a new parish. I know things change, but I was shocked to find no kneelers in the entire church. Both before and after Communion (even after confession), the parishioners just stay seated. Even if I tried to kneel (appearing “odd” in the crowd), there’s not enough room between the rows to kneel. Is this a new policy in the Church or perhaps now just an option?

It makes me feel very uncomfortable. Am I just out of step with “new” church policies?

The only Catholic Masses I’ve ever attended that didn’t have kneelers were temporary or overflow Masses in parish gyms, or some other makeshift situation, like an Encounter Weekend.

The people stood for the consecration and sat after Communion.

In 71 years, I have never seen a Catholic Church that didn’t have kneelers.

 

[Aramis]

Many Eastern Catholic parishes (especially outside the US) lack both kneelers and pews.

Kneeling during the consecration is particular to the Roman Rite; the Byzantine Rite prefaces the Anaphora with the deacon calling out “Let us stand aright; let us stand in awe; let us be attentive to offer the holy Anaphora in peace.”

It is important to submit to the directions of the missal and the celebrant; it is not sacrilege to stand during the consecration. If it were, Rome would have forced that upon the east, and it has not done so; in fact, the Rome has ordered a return to standing by those parishes who knelt during the Eastern Catholic liturgies.

 

[Walking_Home]

Many Eastern Catholic parishes (especially outside the US) lack both kneelers and pews.

Kneeling during the consecration is particular to the Roman Rite; the Byzantine Rite prefaces the Anaphora with the deacon calling out “Let us stand aright; let us stand in awe; let us be attentive to offer the holy Anaphora in peace.”

It is important to submit to the directions of the missal and the celebrant; it is not sacrilege to stand during the consecration. If it were, Rome would have forced that upon the east, and it has not done so; in fact, the Rome has ordered a return to standing by those parishes who knelt during** the Eastern Catholic liturgies**.

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For the Eastern Catholic liturgies —but we are not speaking of the Eastern liturgies are we. For the Easterners —who have had much to say about being Latinized —you don’t see the contradiction --when you come here and push for “Easternizing” the Latins.

 

[Aramis]

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For the Eastern Catholic liturgies —but we are not speaking of the Eastern liturgies are we. For the Easterners —who have had much to say about being Latinized —you don’t see the contradiction --when you come here and push for “Easternizing” the Latins.

I object to individuals claiming it is sacrilege to stand during the consecration or during communion, for the way Rome handles the Eastern Churches and their Liturgies shows that they do not speak truth. In most cases, out of ignorance; in some, out of defiance, error, or arrogance.

Rome has granted recognitio to the USCCB’s requests for normalizing standing for communion in the Roman Church, as was done in the Early Church (both East and West). Rejection of that for the OF is rejection of Rome’s authority. Claiming it is sacrilege is wilfully ignoring the church’s teachings on the Eastern Churches.

Now, Standing during the Latin Consecration is normally an abuse, but it isn’t sacrilege. Pope JP II instructed all to stand for the during one mass I was at. (It was outdoor, and muddy.)

For the Roman Mass, the norm is kneeling during the consecration; where that would be an issue (due to facilities or infirmity), standing is the preferred alternate, then as a last resort, sitting.

This isn’t about byzantification; it’s about pointing out that the hyperbole is erroneous, and citing the Eastern Rites shows it to be so.

 

[Walking_Home]

I object to individuals claiming it is sacrilege to stand during the consecration or during communion, for the way Rome handles the Eastern Churches and their Liturgies shows that they do not speak truth. In most cases, out of ignorance; in some, out of defiance, error, or arrogance.

Rome has granted recognitio to the USCCB’s requests for normalizing standing for communion in the Roman Church, as was done in the Early Church (both East and West). Rejection of that for the OF is rejection of Rome’s authority. Claiming it is sacrilege is wilfully ignoring the church’s teachings on the Eastern Churches.

Now, Standing during the Latin Consecration is normally an abuse, but it isn’t sacrilege. Pope JP II instructed all to stand for the during one mass I was at. (It was outdoor, and muddy.)

For the Roman Mass, the norm is kneeling during the consecration; where that would be an issue (due to facilities or infirmity), standing is the preferred alternate, then as a last resort, sitting.

This isn’t about byzantification; it’s about pointing out that the hyperbole is erroneous, and citing the Eastern Rites shows it to be so.

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You need to keep in mind --our own (Latin) organic development. What is proper in the Eastern mind —may not coincide with Latin tradition. To us kneeling is a very important aspect of who we are—a particularly expressive sign of adoration. So --when we find fault with being made to stand —this has nothing to do with the Eastern rites and your traditions. We are speaking of ourselves --our Rite. When you come here trying to make a case for standing —you are in essence denying us --who we organically are. You are denying us our place in the Church.

Keep in mind too—we have a new Pope in the Chair of Peter. And from what he has written, said, and done —is very pro kneeling.

 

[Colorfast_Bear]

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While it is true that we don’t need kneelers to kneel --we cannot deny that with the “Spirit of Vat II” revolution – kneelers and Altar rails were ripped out of many churches. The Church never authorized the removal of the kneelers/Altar rails. And as kneelers were done away with – so was kneeling itself in places. It seems the Pope and Card. Arinze have realized this has had a negative affect on the Church.

I hope my comment about kneelers wasn’t misinterpreted to mean that I refused to kneel in the absence of kneelers. I would gladly kneel on the floor :bowdown2:, but there just isn’t room. The seats are arranged so parishioners have less room between the seat in front of them than the space provided between seats on an airplane .

 

[Methodi]

I was not talking about the removal of altar railings or the fact that kneeling is an important part of our worship. I was simply trying to explain that the absence of kneelers does not make a parish or the builders of new churches disobedient to Rome. They are there for the comfort of the parishoners. Period.

There are some people who cannot kneel without a kneeler. A lot of us older folks, if we kneel on the floor we cannot get up, what were they thinking of when they removed kneelers & altar rails, not to mention the removal of the confessionals, I think it has hurt the church & I used to think what a beautiful sight a nun was in her habit, now they dress just like any other woman Times are changing fast , one day we will have woman priests etc

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
While it is true that we don’t need kneelers to kneel --we cannot deny that with the “Spirit of Vat II” revolution – kneelers and Altar rails were ripped out of many churches. The Church never authorized the removal of the kneelers/Altar rails. And as kneelers were done away with – so was kneeling itself in places. It seems the Pope and Card. Arinze have realized this has had a negative affect on the Church.

I** hope my comment about kneelers wasn’t misinterpreted ** to mean that I refused to kneel in the absence of kneelers. I would gladly kneel on the floor :bowdown2:, but there just isn’t room. The seats are arranged so parishioners have less room between the seat in front of them than the space provided between seats on an airplane .

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Please don’t take my response to mean I found fault with you. I can understand the situation you found yourself in --for I have been in the same.

 

[Tsuwano]

Tsuwano, thanks for the perspective. Is it a Roman Catholic church you attend? If so, is this allowed by the Vatican and the Japanese bishops as a proper cultural variant? The general instruction on the missal is quite clear on the matter that kneeling is required, but does allow some leeway.

Yes, I’m Roman Catholic and the two churches I mentioned are both Catholic churches. The first church was built in the early 60’s and its design may have been influenced by the spirit of that time, though I have no way of knowing. Other churches I’ve seen however, were built prior to Vatican II and they also do not have kneelers. The 2nd church I mentioned, the one without pews, is an old mission church probably built shortly after World War II when materials were in short supply. It is still an active parish, staffed by missionaries, and it has never been remodeled. In fact, the parishoners prefer its design as it accurately reflects traditional Japanese culture. Now, whether the Japanese bishops have some kind of understanding with the Vatican, I really don’t know, but since Japan is recognized as mission territory there may be some kind of leeway here. I should add that the parishoners of both churches are very respectful during the liturgy and the churches themselves are beautiful and stand out as holy places of worship to the non Christian community which surrounds them.

 

[japhy]

what were they thinking of when they removed kneelers & altar rails, not to mention the removal of the confessionals, I think it has hurt the church & I used to think what a beautiful sight a nun was in her habit, now they dress just like any other woman

You smile at that? Lots of the nuns who don’t wear habits are the gray-haired ones, meanwhile younger women who are entering the consecrated life as nuns in orders that maintain traditional practice and attire are flourishing!

Times are changing fast , one day we will have woman priests etc

No, we won’t.

 

[iasd1234]

the parish I attend doesn’t have kneelers.

What’s wrong with the floor???

I actually with my knee problems HATE kneelers. It actually hurts more to be on a kneeler.

Excuse me, I’ll kneel on the floor thank you!

 

[Methodi]

You smile at that? Lots of the nuns who don’t wear habits are the gray-haired ones, meanwhile younger women who are entering the consecrated life as nuns in orders that maintain traditional practice and attire are flourishing!

No, we won’t.

Don`t bet on it, many changes already have taken place in the Church, The Church is not getting many Men who want to become a priest, so what is going to happen? Women right now are doing a wonderful Job in the Church, I would prefer that Only men be ordained, But when a new Pope comes in who knows what may happen. We might not live to see it.
Also I see almost no Nuns in habits these days, I dont smile at that, I smile at the person I am sending the quote to. You Catholics are so touchy

 

[Roza]

You Catholics are so touchy

On and off job hunts make me touchy. But I can understand people with knee problems and older people needing them. Plus, they’ve been a part of Churches for how many years now? Why remove them?

Yeah, compared to the early Church, we’re spoiled I know.

 

[japhy]

Don`t bet on it, many changes already have taken place in the Church, The Church is not getting many Men who want to become a priest, so what is going to happen?

The Church is getting more and more men lately. Men are finally in environments that foster vocations to the priesthood instead of squelch and suffocate them.

Women right now are doing a wonderful Job in the Church, I would prefer that Only men be ordained, But when a new Pope comes in who knows what may happen. We might not live to see it.

The priesthood is not a “job”, it is a vocation and an identity, and it belongs to males only, and not to all males, but only those whom God calls to it.

It is impossible for the Church to ordain women. This has already been declared infallibly. The Church simply has neither the authority nor the power to do this. Just like a priest can’t make a Dorito chip and a mug of beer into the Eucharist, a bishop can’t make a woman into a priest.

 

[Methodi]

The Church is getting more and more men lately. Men are finally in environments that foster vocations to the priesthood instead of squelch and suffocate them.

The priesthood is not a “job”, it is a vocation and an identity, and it belongs to males only, and not to all males, but only those whom God calls to it.

It is impossible for the Church to ordain women. This has already been declared infallibly. The Church simply has neither the authority nor the power to do this. Just like a priest can’t make a Dorito chip and a mug of beer into the Eucharist, a bishop can’t make a woman into a priest.

Secular priests are hired, its a job.In my diocese, there are about 160 parishes, they are scaling down to about 65 or so I think. The priests we have are mostly all near retirement age. That is one reason why we are scaling down, lack of priests. The way the church is going, they will eventually have to make some changes, The Pope has the power, whatever he looses on earth is also loosed in heaven & whatever he binds on earth is also bound in heaven. The Pope does have the power to change things, not that I want them to but it may be matters of necessity

 

[PKinsale]

Secular priests are hired, its a job.In my diocese, there are about 160 parishes, they are scaling down to about 65 or so I think. The priests we have are mostly all near retirement age. That is one reason why we are scaling down, lack of priests. The way the church is going, they will eventually have to make some changes, The Pope has the power, whatever he looses on earth is also loosed in heaven & whatever he binds on earth is also bound in heaven. The Pope does have the power to change things, not that I want them to but it may be matters of necessity

Sorry, but you’re wrong. Secular priests are not “hired.” But it is simply not true that women can or ever will be ordained. The time may come when out of necessity married men are allowed to be ordained as a more regular practice in the Latin church. But unless you can show us where the Vatican is wrong on its statements regarding women and the priesthood, you should avoid that thought and focus on the subject at hand.