Churches Closed during Coronavirus - Lack of Faith?

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Rosary_and_Chotki

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Hi all, I’ve been thinking about this for a few days.

Since we are in the middle of the Coronavirus crisis, every U.S. Diocese and (most) Eparchies have closed public liturgies. Same thing in many European nations and in other countries around the world, sometimes even without any government forcing them to close.

The Orthodox, mostly from what I can tell, have tried to keep public liturgies open in countries like Russia and Serbia. The SSPX have also kept public liturgies open where gatherings are still legal.

Their argument is that the Catholic Bishops who close their jurisdictions lack faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which cannot transmit harm or disease.

Do you think it’s the right call for public health, or do the Bishops lack faith? I’m torn between both sides.
 
Rosary_and_Chotki said:
the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which cannot transmit harm or disease.
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This is not a correct understanding of the Eucharist. We do not deny that scientifically speaking, germs can still be spread at liturgies. This, it is wholly irresponsible to have a public liturgy at this time.
 
I think-I know-that there’ll always be some insecure naysayers looking to make themselves look better/holier/saintlier-at other’s expense. Neo-Phairisees.
 
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Prudence. A virtue.

Maybe we should pray that all Christians receive this grace.

Also: the masses are still being offered - just that groups of people are exactly how this virus is spread.

Still, it gets back to the virtue of prudence. Maybe their faith is not strong enough to permit them to protect their parishioners, huh?
 
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I don’t think it’s a lack of faith on the part of the bishops. They’re acting to protect their flocks. I applaud them.
 
Cor_ad_Cor said:
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Rosary_and_Chotki:
the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which cannot transmit harm or disease.
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This is not a correct understanding of the Eucharist. We do not deny that scientifically speaking, germs can still be spread at liturgies. This, it is wholly irresponsible to have a public liturgy at this time.
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Precisely! It’s not the Eucharist! It’s the gathering. Is this not the murmuring that Christ spoke so ill of?
 
I actually agree with the SSPX priests on the subject regarding whether the Eucharist can make someone sick. I don’t believe God would allow it. However, Coronavirus is spread through the air by coughing and possibly, by talking and singing. If someone with it goes into a church, they get it on the door handle, the stack of bulletins, the holy water font, the entire pew, the pew in front of them, the backs of the people in front of them, the kneeler, the hymnal, the missalette, the door of the bathroom, everything in the bathroom, and the hand rail going downstairs to the parking lot.
 
not sure why some people are acting likethis is the first pandemic the world has ever had, church were closed during the plagues of the middle ages, just read an article on that, and also during the Spanish flu. not to mention other things like war, natural disasters, bad weather, terrorist threats ETC…
 
Allegra said:
I actually agree with the SSPX priests on the subject regarding whether the Eucharist can make someone sick. I don’t believe God would allow it.
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The Eucharist, as we know, retains all the accidents of bread and wine. The “wine” is still intoxicating. The “bread” still affects the gluten sensitive. If spoiled, it will attract vermin. If poisoned, it will transmit that poison. And yes, if the consecrated elements become a receptacle for bacteria or virii, receiving them can make people sick. The underlying reality of Jesus isn’t harming people, but the accidents that enable us to eat and drink Him can.
 
Can one pray for an increase in prudence when doing the rosary,just before you say the first 3 ones after saying the apostles creed in the beginning?
 
With all due respect, it seems like we have about 10 threads on this same topic by now.

As someone else said, prudence is considered a gift of the Holy Spirit, and this is not the first Catholic church has closed due to a pandemic (or a war or other threat).

Good luck getting information from Russia or Serbia about how many people get or pass the virus at a public liturgy there. I have several Serbian friends and they would shake their head at the thought of getting clear information.

We’ve also been over the whole “The Real Presence of Christ in the Euchrarist Cannot Transmit Disease” on about 100 past threads dealing with the Precious Blood being withheld from the congregation during flu season, which in the US is a regular occurrence each winter, so that the faithful are not all drinking from the same chalice even when it is turned and wiped for each sip. The Church does what is sensible. It’s fine with me, I don’t need to do the equivalent of Protestant snake handling and take chances with my health to witness my faith.
 
Rosary_and_Chotki said:
Their argument is that the Catholic Bishops who close their jurisdictions lack faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which cannot transmit harm or disease.
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We’ve been over this already on this forum a dozen times.

The Church does NOT teach the above idea.

The accidents remain. And moreover, a virus can certainly adhere to the accidents.

And coronavirus is highly contagious from person to person— and asymptomatic people can spread it.

Put this out of your mind, it’s a wrongheaded notion.
 
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There are some evangelical churches damaging the reputation of the faith by not exercising prudence and treating God like a genie in a bottle: demanding that he miraculously preserve them from the sickness instead of exercising common sense during a plague.

The Catholic bishops are seeing to the welfare of their parishioners and to the wider community. We should follow their lead.
 
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First of all, in answer to your question “do the bishops lack faith” I can understand the argument that some bishops might have a lack of faith, especially in the west. This has been a gradual problem developing over the last 50 years (and possibly longer) but not all the bishops can be categorized into one box. All things considered, this does not change the fact that there appears still to be a risk of spreading the virus by general items and by the air nevertheless.

I think this question is answered best by the Bishops of Poland. As they have said, there should be more masses in order to help stop the spread of the virus rather than less, so that people can be spread apart more in Church. It should also be noted, that as long as the priest is six foot away from the penitent or has a grill in between them and the penitent with a curtain, then one to one confession should certainly be available.

Social distancing should be taken into consideration, but in a way that is best for our souls. I can understand the suspension of tea and coffee after mass for example, and of a priest getting permission to celebrate ten masses a day instead of one so that we can be sat apart form each other. We can understand the Bishops intentions to stop the spread of the virus, but having a balanced approach in doing this is key, which includes weighing up together both peoples souls and their health instead of forgetting the latter or on the other extreme pretending that only the former is important.
 
We can understand that Bishops want to follow legal procedure. However, in states where religious worship is allowed, masses should still be taking place, but in a more careful manner than normal
 
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Paul_Edwards said:
a priest getting permission to celebrate ten masses a day instead of one
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I would not expect this of any priest, especially when the priest is also likely dealing with many other matters such as the financial administration of his parish during a time when many stay home, and his own health matters such as how he himself is going to get food and necessities during a lockdown. Many of the priests also have underlying health conditions. I do not want them to be out there saying 10 Masses a day. Which, if we assume each Mass takes a half hour (meaning they are really quick Masses) and allowing for some rest breaks between Masses, is going to be about 7 hours of the priest working just on Masses - and then he has to go home and do all his other tasks like financial administration of his parish, hearing confessions, dealing with parishioners whose loved ones are sick or dying, etc.

I also strongly doubt that in USA, people would come out to 10 Masses a day. Most people do not want to go out during the lockdown and the Church is being kind to them also by removing any sort of moral quandary they might have about whether they “need to” or “should” go out to Mass.

As Catholics we are called to be kind and love our neighbor. The priest is our neighbor. Our fellow parishioners are our neighbor. The most loving thing to do here is exactly what our Bishops have done.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
I also strongly doubt that in USA, people would come out to 10 Masses a day. Most people do not want to go out during the lockdown
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In that case, it would not be necessary to have that many masses in order to keep social distancing, as only some people would come to the few masses that were available.

As a side note, some churches like the FSSP have a few priests, so at least in churches like that they should be allowed to have masses. The FSSP church near me in England has four priests currently in residence and it would be easy to have social distancing there if it was legal to be unlocked and have public masses in England.

Maybe if the FSSP and ICKSP were made personal prelatures it would solve the problem as they would have separate jurisdiction
 
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This virus can spread very easily and quickly in public places and in groups of people, even if no one is showing symptoms.

There are many seniors present at Mass and there are many people with pre-existing conditions. Also, many of the Priests are over 60, putting them in the more “high risk” category.

Look what happened at this choir practice in Washington State on March 10: 2 people have died, and as many as 45 may be sick with the virus (28 confirmed)

There were no known cases of the coronavirus on the day of the rehearsal, the group said.

 
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