Churches rejecting science altogether

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How? The Inquisition wasn’t conducted by Catholics? Even against St. Teresa? Please explain.
Seeing as how you have been banned Ranklyfrank and can’t reply i won’t go on too long.
I would quickly echo JDaniels recommendation of reading the pages concerning the Spanish Inquisition in “The Irrational Atheist” as a good place to start. Also researching who was for the Spanish Inquisition and why and who was against it and laid laws to prevent abuses and raised concerns when those laws were broken, i’d recommend researching the extent of the Inquisitions and comparing it to common law at the time.

At no stage was it ‘all the rage’ and at no stage was the Vatican driving the Spanish Inquisition except in their occasional efforts to stop the abuses which compared to common law were much more rare.
 
Not long ago, in Africa, one tribe attacked another using primitive weapons. Many died. Science is only a method of study, followed by application. Only men are responsible in the end.

Peace,
Ed
Yes, I believe that. And, that is a good way to sum it all up.

God bless,
jd
 
Actually even science is filled with uncertainty. The nature of the scientific method means that theories can be proved incorrect but cannot be proved correct, you can only provide evidence supporting it. And experimental evidence always has a degree of error, sometimes a very significant one. That’s not to say science is not valuable, but it is not infallible. The discipline with the greatest degree of certainty is mathematics, because in mathematics you can simply prove something correct or incorrect.
You are right about uncertainty existing in science. Just less of it than in anywhere else, except, as you mentioned, math.

I’m currently a student in applied math right now, and while you can prove things in math, it’s been proven that you *CAN’T * prove the the consistency of any mathematical system. It’s often said that math is the only religion where you can prove it’s a religion.
 
Craig Venter denies Tree of Life.

Watch the what is life panel. Other very interesting stuff here.

Richard Dawkins, J Craig Venter, Sydney Altman, Lee Hartwell, Paul Davies, Chris McKay, Lawrence Krauss, Roger Bingham

Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life – and Another Dawkins Whopper

“The tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren’t really holding up…So there is not a tree of life.”
Dawkins is Flabbergasted
Fast forward to 11:23, when moderator Roger Bingham turns the microphone over to Dawkins:
“I’m intrigued,” replies Dawkins, “at Craig saying that the tree of life is a fiction. I mean…the DNA code of all creatures that have ever been looked at is all but identical.”
WHOPPER. Venter just told the forum that Mycoplasma read their DNA using a different coding convention than other organisms (for “stop” and tryptophan). But Dawkins is undaunted:
“Surely that means,” he asks Venter, “that they’re all related? Doesn’t it?”
As nearly as we can tell from the video, Venter only smiles.

More support for IDvolution.👍
Thanks, Buffalo, for this. This is very interesting and hard to swallow. I am an ex-biology and zoology teacher: if it’s shocking to me, I can see why it would be very shocking to Dawkins. Besides, I have spent time with real fossils and exploring and chipping fossils out of the rocks above the Green River estuaries, near Kemmerer, WY.

Keep them coming . . .

God bless,
jd
 
I think science has a special place among human knowledge because it’s the area of human knowledge with the greatest amount of certainty (outside revelation, of course).

I swtiched from an international relations major to economics to move up the chain of epistemological certainty. Now I’m not satisfied with economics so I want to move into neuroscience.
The joke about economics is that they use the same final exam questions every year - they just change the answers.
 
While animals do not have human cognition, we are learning that animals in many cases have greater cognition than we previously believed. We are also learning that there are true, physiological (animal) reasons for some of the ways we act. This doesn’t EXCUSE or CONDONE such behavior. It does EDUCATE us about the behavior.

Again, that is not a science issue.

I think you are confusing “science” with a lot of other things.

Peace,
Ed

Hi, kbachlr,

Well, as long as the medical arts are called medical science, then the abuse of the emergency medical procedure of abortion has become a science issue.

Also, as long as biology is called science and biologists study animal behavior, then, this is a science issue.

Science remains an organized study of the natural world and the beings in it. It may not be science’s fault that lay people pull it into this field or that, but once people tug science into an issue, that issue becomes a science site. Good or bad.
That’s what science gets for vaunting itself ever since the 1950’s on TV and in different media.

God loves you,
Don
I have the gut feeling that there are some issues with quoting in your prior post. Please be careful
 
Craig Venter denies Tree of Life.

Watch the what is life panel. Other very interesting stuff here.

Richard Dawkins, J Craig Venter, Sydney Altman, Lee Hartwell, Paul Davies, Chris McKay, Lawrence Krauss, Roger Bingham

Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life – and Another Dawkins Whopper

“The tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren’t really holding up…So there is not a tree of life.”
Dawkins is Flabbergasted
Fast forward to 11:23, when moderator Roger Bingham turns the microphone over to Dawkins:
“I’m intrigued,” replies Dawkins, “at Craig saying that the tree of life is a fiction. I mean…the DNA code of all creatures that have ever been looked at is all but identical.”
WHOPPER. Venter just told the forum that Mycoplasma read their DNA using a different coding convention than other organisms (for “stop” and tryptophan). But Dawkins is undaunted:
“Surely that means,” he asks Venter, “that they’re all related? Doesn’t it?”
As nearly as we can tell from the video, Venter only smiles.

More support for IDvolution.👍
I understand what they said, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Craig Venter denies Tree of Life.

Watch the what is life panel. Other very interesting stuff here.

Richard Dawkins, J Craig Venter, Sydney Altman, Lee Hartwell, Paul Davies, Chris McKay, Lawrence Krauss, Roger Bingham

Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life – and Another Dawkins Whopper

“The tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren’t really holding up…So there is not a tree of life.”
Dawkins is Flabbergasted
Fast forward to 11:23, when moderator Roger Bingham turns the microphone over to Dawkins:
“I’m intrigued,” replies Dawkins, “at Craig saying that the tree of life is a fiction. I mean…the DNA code of all creatures that have ever been looked at is all but identical.”
WHOPPER. Venter just told the forum that Mycoplasma read their DNA using a different coding convention than other organisms (for “stop” and tryptophan). But Dawkins is undaunted:
“Surely that means,” he asks Venter, “that they’re all related? Doesn’t it?”
As nearly as we can tell from the video, Venter only smiles.

More support for IDvolution.👍
My apology. I have not been keeping up with threads.

Is there a written transcript somewhere?

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
The joke about economics is that they use the same final exam questions every year - they just change the answers.
That’s funny but that’s not true. Everything in economics is mathematicized.

The real joke is:

If you understand it and you can prove it, send it to a math journal.

If you understand it but can’t prove it, send it to a physcis journal.

If you can’t understand it, but can prove it, send it to an economics journal.

If you can’t understand it or prove it, send it to a psychology journal.
 
Discouraging people from obtaining scientific literacy is hardly going to fix that problem. In fact, I believe that the problem of science abuse can only be addressed in a society where the power of science is actually appreciated. When people treat science as elitist or political they cheapen its results and society is unable to reap the rewards of science-based decisions.
Hi, TheTrueCentrist,

As long as science presents itself as elitist and political, a lot of us are going to see it that way.
I’m glad we have “Science”. I just wish its proponents were more open to needed critiques from ordinary people. We aren’t stupid just because we’re not “Scientifically literate”.

God loves you,
Don
 
My degrees are in Natural Science and Mathematics. I work in business finance.

If you consider many of the major issues facing democracies today, a significant amount of them require some understanding of science and how it works to be able to consider the issues reasonably. So yes, as an obligation to a democracy, EVERY CITIZEN needs to “adopt” some science orientation. It’s optional ONLY IF someone is choosing to be an irresponsible citizen - which they have a right to do.

So in closing, your “feeling good”, along with your responsibilities to your neighbors, DOES depend on you having some understanding of science.

BTW, although mathematics and science are my background, I read and teach philosophy, I got my undergrad from a liberal arts college, and am very supportive of the arts - my son is in music for example. I have a responsibility to those things, just as other citizens have a responsibility to science.
Hi, kbachler,

Neither of us are entitled to an education. Education, whether school, self educated, street education, vocational and etc are not entitlements. Some kind of education is essential for a civilized citizenry. However, the all arts and sciences educated person was last seen in the Eighteenth Century. There’s just too much knowledge available, to learn it all.
And, all these different kinds of education must remain available, for us to have a free society. And, people with one kind of education must start respecting people with a different kind of education. This respect of variety is much better than the existing tolerance of diversity.
You seem a sincere idealist.

Once, there was a successful business man who seemed on top of everything in his sphere of endeavor, he had any kind of detailed information you could think of. When asked his secret, he showed the interviewer a panel on his desk with several buttons, and a label for each button. There were labels for many different details of his business endeavor. He told the interviewer, “These buttons put me in touch with specialists in each of these fields. I can hire knowledge.”
Or, something like that.

So, sir or madam, I submit that the responsible citizen needs only access to well informed people, to vote responsibly. And, that fills our obligation to be literate in this or that: religion, history, science, law, medicine, politics, education and etc.

The viewpoint of the educated voter that you present looks to me like a hindrance to responsible voters who have access to different specialists in their field. That viewpoint comes across as a didactic strategy to keep people from voting, so that the users of this elitist strategy can have their way. Which is just as dangerous to us at large as any ignorant person seems to you.

You may not realize it, but the viewpoint you have adopted presents you as one of those elitists.

In a free nation, each citizen’s first responsibility is to the whole truth: religious, historical, scientific, legal, medical, political, educational and etc. That way, we will not mutely give away our rights and freedoms to any demagogue which may come along. For example, our present president shows all the earmarks of a great demagogue.

God loves you,
Don
 
Hi, kbachler,

Neither of us are entitled to an education. Education, whether school, self educated, street education, vocational and etc are not entitlements. Some kind of education is essential for a civilized citizenry. However, the all arts and sciences educated person was last seen in the Eighteenth Century. There’s just too much knowledge available, to learn it all.
And, all these different kinds of education must remain available, for us to have a free society. And, people with one kind of education must start respecting people with a different kind of education. This respect of variety is much better than the existing tolerance of diversity.
You seem a sincere idealist.

Once, there was a successful business man who seemed on top of everything in his sphere of endeavor, he had any kind of detailed information you could think of. When asked his secret, he showed the interviewer a panel on his desk with several buttons, and a label for each button. There were labels for many different details of his business endeavor. He told the interviewer, “These buttons put me in touch with specialists in each of these fields. I can hire knowledge.”
Or, something like that.

So, sir or madam, I submit that the responsible citizen needs only access to well informed people, to vote responsibly. And, that fills our obligation to be literate in this or that: religion, history, science, law, medicine, politics, education and etc.

The viewpoint of the educated voter that you present looks to me like a hindrance to responsible voters who have access to different specialists in their field. That viewpoint comes across as a didactic strategy to keep people from voting, so that the users of this elitist strategy can have their way. Which is just as dangerous to us at large as any ignorant person seems to you.

You may not realize it, but the viewpoint you have adopted presents you as one of those elitists.

In a free nation, each citizen’s first responsibility is to the whole truth: religious, historical, scientific, legal, medical, political, educational and etc. That way, we will not mutely give away our rights and freedoms to any demagogue which may come along. For example, our present president shows all the earmarks of a great demagogue.

God loves you,
Don
I Like this post Don. 👍
 
I think science has a special place among human knowledge because it’s the area of human knowledge with the greatest amount of certainty (outside revelation, of course).

I swtiched from an international relations major to economics to move up the chain of epistemological certainty. Now I’m not satisfied with economics so I want to move into neuroscience.
Hi, ChinoCoug,

Imho, if you want scientific certainty, then you must excel in mathematics.

God loves you,
Don
 
I have the gut feeling that there are some issues with quoting in your prior post. Please be careful
Hi, kbachler,

Thanks for the heads up. That was the page I had to write my post. I did the best with it, that I could.
Otherwise, I would have had to have edited the whole page, before I posted the quote.

God loves you,
Don
 
Hi, kbachler,

Neither of us are entitled to an education. Education, whether school, self educated, street education, vocational and etc are not entitlements. Some kind of education is essential for a civilized citizenry. However, the all arts and sciences educated person was last seen in the Eighteenth Century. There’s just too much knowledge available, to learn it all.
And, all these different kinds of education must remain available, for us to have a free society. And, people with one kind of education must start respecting people with a different kind of education. This respect of variety is much better than the existing tolerance of diversity.
You seem a sincere idealist.

Once, there was a successful business man who seemed on top of everything in his sphere of endeavor, he had any kind of detailed information you could think of. When asked his secret, he showed the interviewer a panel on his desk with several buttons, and a label for each button. There were labels for many different details of his business endeavor. He told the interviewer, “These buttons put me in touch with specialists in each of these fields. I can hire knowledge.”
Or, something like that.

So, sir or madam, I submit that the responsible citizen needs only access to well informed people, to vote responsibly. And, that fills our obligation to be literate in this or that: religion, history, science, law, medicine, politics, education and etc.

The viewpoint of the educated voter that you present looks to me like a hindrance to responsible voters who have access to different specialists in their field. That viewpoint comes across as a didactic strategy to keep people from voting, so that the users of this elitist strategy can have their way. Which is just as dangerous to us at large as any ignorant person seems to you.

You may not realize it, but the viewpoint you have adopted presents you as one of those elitists.

In a free nation, each citizen’s first responsibility is to the whole truth: religious, historical, scientific, legal, medical, political, educational and etc. That way, we will not mutely give away our rights and freedoms to any demagogue which may come along. For example, our present president shows all the earmarks of a great demagogue.

God loves you,
Don
A responsible citizenry needs to understand enough about science and the scientific method to understand what informed people have to say about it.

This paragraph makes no sense to me:
The viewpoint of the educated voter that you present looks to me like a hindrance to responsible voters who have access to different specialists in their field. That viewpoint comes across as a didactic strategy to keep people from voting, so that the users of this elitist strategy can have their way. Which is just as dangerous to us at large as any ignorant person seems to you.
  1. Why would an educated voter be a hindrance?
  2. Why would this be a strategy to keep people from voting? In what way?
My point is that we have people who believe in horoscopes, even on this board we have flat-earthers and geocentrists. The world is difficult enough without having votes rely on mysticism rather than reality.

BTW - in terms of education - it took me a dozen years to put myself through college, working full time and attending part time, because couldn’t afford to go any other way. So I don’t think I really need to be told that education is not an entitlement - do you?
 
Hi, TheTrueCentrist,

As long as science presents itself as elitist and political, a lot of us are going to see it that way.
I’m glad we have “Science”. I just wish its proponents were more open to needed critiques from ordinary people. We aren’t stupid just because we’re not “Scientifically literate”.

God loves you,
Don
Science doesn’t present itself as elitist and political (or for that matter, elitis OR political.) ANYONE can learn about science on TV or at the library, there are many programs and books today that explain even complex scientific ideas in lay terms. How much LESS elite does it need to get for you to take off your elitist lable?

That said, science does try to describe reality and get it right, which means there is a “performance bar” - namely - correctness/reality. Are you implying that reality is elitist?

No one is saying that people who aren’t scientifically literate, are stupid. But there does need to be a basic understanding of science to grasp science.

By comparison - I can go to a museum and look at paintings and appreciate the art on a certain level even though I know very little about the techniques of painting. But if I know about the techniques, I can appreciate it more.

OR - I can go to a concert and enjoy music. Although, if I know more about musical technique and composition I might have a better understanding of Bach and “golden braids” than I would otherwise.

But, for example, if I look to the art of – CHESS – it is difficult to understand on a purely visceral level. I need to understand something about chess, about chess technique, about the science of logic in order to appreciate chess. That’s not elitism, that’s simply the nature of chess.

Science is similar. It’s difficult to have an understanding or appreciation of it without some modicum of understanding of the scientific method. That understanding increases if there is some modicum of understanding of say elementary probability and calculus.

There are not “elitist” comments, they’re simply observations on what it takes to understand a complex subject.

And unfortunately, many of the answers that the world needs today require some understanding of the subject.

You find it elitist. I find the attitude of calling it “elitist” somewhat biased and a bit hateful perhaps, and a poor excuse for not making more of an effort to understand.

My “elitism” is that I would like everyone to have a good rudimentary understanding of modern science. How that is “elitist” (when I want it for everyone" I don’t quite understand. What I do understand is that there is a quality level that needs to be reached for this understanding. If you’re mistaking “elitism” for the pursuit of quality, then I’ll take the label and continue to pursue quality.
 
We need a category

Science: Discussions of scientific theories and developments, with an emphasis on Catholic contributors like Galileo, DesCartes, Mendel, and Ayala.
 
Let’s consider a few major issues:

Pollution
Energy
Food production
Disease
Pest control
Distribution/Travel mechanisms (new trains, places, etc.)
Communication
Global warming/climate change
Don’t forget:

Stem Cell Research
Abortion
human cloning
Creating sentinent life
Creating human/animal hybrids
Same-sex marriage: Animal Testing
 
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