Churches rejecting science altogether

[Charlemagne_II]

Perfect Timing

*To me it seems wrong for parents or pastors or whoever to be teaching children this but I’m curious to see what other people think. *

I think you know very well what pastors are concerned about. They are concerned about certain scientists like Richard Dawkins who propagandize that the theory of evolution has made atheism respectable.

 

[donsnow]

I am glad also. I think that Paul’s admonitions about not putting stumbling blocks in front of others is something that you should consider.

Do you want more than one? Here is one for you:

That, sir, is an out and out lie.

Let those who have ears to hear, hear.

It IS your choice. And likewise it is MY CHOICE to tell you when you are incorrect in your understanding of science, OR when you are putting obstacles in front of other potential believers, OR when you are misinterpreting the Bible. It is also YOUR CHOICE to examine yourself and consider whether there may be merit to these criticisms and something to learn, or not.

I examine myself constantly. I ask for those around me to give me feedback. I look for ways to improve daily. As a result, I am very comfortable in who I am. I examine my life.

What I see here, Donsnow, is someone who clings to a position without listening to anyone else even to the point to consider whether it is POSSIBLE that something else may be learned. Your position is right, everyone else is wrong, so why bother?

You are already acting on your personal ideas.

I don’t expect you or anyone else to have it as the same priority. Nor do I think you have any understanding of what the level of priority is of science in my life (it is relatively low, actually). But I do reasonably expect people to have it as a sufficient place in their lives to understand issues. You, like most others, do not. However, most others are not haughty about it, or claiming that they know the truth and go espousing ideas, when in fact their position is quite narrow and fallible. But doing so, you lead others astray, both from Christianity and the ways of Christ, and from science. Stopping that is a much higher priority for me.

It is a reasonable expectation for you to have a modicum of science knowledge as well as all others. It is also a reasonable expectation of you that you not act like you know things that you do not know, and that you do not lead others astray.

And yet we should all have a modicum of common belief. In our duty to each other, we each need a modicum of scientific knowledge.

I haven’t made any ad hominem attacks. If you claim to know things that you do not in fact know, then I will challenge your claims and lack of knowledge. I expect the truth from you Donsnow. If you don’t provide it, then you can expect to be challenged again.

kbackler,

I’m just curious.

Do you wear black leather, when you’re whipping me like that?

That you preach science instead of Christ crucified is an out and out lie? Then, why haven’t I seen any references to Christ crucified in your posts to me?
Sir, everybody preaches something.
All I see you preach is science. I go by the words from your keyboard, to me.

Where do I mislead anyone from Christianity?

I’m here to please the Heaveny Father, not you.

I do have a modest understanding of science. I like some of the fruits of science and decry some of the other fruits of science. I also mention when science is out of place. That’s my duty, to protect my and others’ faith in Jesus Christ and the Catholic church. That faith, kbackler, comes first, not science.

Your posts to me lead me to wonder if you place science too highly.

God loves you,
Don

 

[PerfectTiming]

kbackler,
That you preach science instead of Christ crucified is an out and out lie? Then, why haven’t I seen any references to Christ crucified in your posts to me?
Sir, everybody preaches something.
All I see you preach is science. I go by the words from your keyboard, to me.

Why can you not preach science AND Christ?
They are not exclusive, in fact they are inclusive. Faith teaches us things we cannot learn by science, science teaches us things we cannot learn by faith. Only through both together can we fully understand the world around us, both the physical AND the spiritual.

 

[edwest2]

The mythical separation of Church and State requires a neutral approach. While science should be respected, it should not begin to answer fundamental questions that involve Divine Revelation. For example, human beings are not just another animal, and comparing animal behavior to human behavior to justify something some people do is not valid.

Some Churches see science as not just offering explanations, but forcing certain viewpoints into textbooks that clearly discount certain ideas as given to the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ. Who was He? Why did He have to die? These are critical questions for all human beings.

Peace,
Ed

 

[donsnow]

Why can you not preach science AND Christ?
They are not exclusive, in fact they are inclusive. Faith teaches us things we cannot learn by science, science teaches us things we cannot learn by faith. Only through both together can we fully understand the world around us, both the physical AND the spiritual.

Hi, PerfectTiming,

You appear right. And, I’d like to point out that I have both said science has its place and the Church comes first.

But, with all due respect, I cannot preach both the Gospel and science as equals. As Jesus Christ says, A man cannot serve two masters…

As I’ve posted on this thread before, science is one of many earthly establishment, others being, after religion, history, science, philosophy, medical arts, military traditions, education, economics, etc. I think that all of those can be taught as equal to any other establishment of man.
But, the God given religions of Judaism and Christianity have no equal among other religions nor among any earthly establishment.

Like any other manmade establishment, science acts best as a servant, not an authority.

Notice, although I put down science to a level of the other establishments, I do not reject science.

God loves you,

 

[buffalo]

Hi, PerfectTiming,

You appear right. And, I’d like to point out that I have both said science has its place and the Church comes first.

But, with all due respect, I cannot preach both the Gospel and science as equals. As Jesus Christ says, A man cannot serve two masters…

As I’ve posted on this thread before, science is one of many earthly establishment, others being, after religion, history, science, philosophy, medical arts, military traditions, education, economics, etc. I think that all of those can be taught as equal to any other establishment of man.
But, the God given religions of Judaism and Christianity have no equal among other religions nor among any earthly establishment.

Like any other manmade establishment, science acts best as a servant, not an authority.

Notice, although I put down science to a level of the other establishments, I do not reject science.

God loves you,

Divine Revelation trumps. :yup:

 

[donsnow]

Divine Revelation trumps. :yup:

Yes, sir, buffalo!



God loves you,
Don

 

[kbachler]

Divine Revelation trumps. :yup:

BOTH are divine revelation. That’s the point.

 

[kbachler]

The mythical separation of Church and State requires a neutral approach. While science should be respected, it should not begin to answer fundamental questions that involve Divine Revelation. For example, human beings are not just another animal, and comparing animal behavior to human behavior to justify something some people do is not valid.

Some Churches see science as not just offering explanations, but forcing certain viewpoints into textbooks that clearly discount certain ideas as given to the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ. Who was He? Why did He have to die? These are critical questions for all human beings.

Peace,
Ed

Science IS divine revelation. Human beings are an animal, and we can learn about ourselves by comparing to other animals. That does not justify acting like an animal.

 

[kbachler]

kbackler,

I’m just curious.

Do you wear black leather, when you’re whipping me like that?

Did you ask this of Christ re- the moneychangers also? Stop maing personal attacks. Deal with the issues.

That you preach science instead of Christ crucified is an out and out lie? Then, why haven’t I seen any references to Christ crucified in your posts to me?

First,why would you expect to see that? Do you need Christ preached to you? I thought you were already a Christian? Your apparent shortcomings are in science. Do you also have shortcomings in Christ?

Second, look at my posts in general - not just the posts to you, and you will see many references to God, Christ, and Biblical reference. In fact, this HAS occurred in the posts to you.

Sir, everybody preaches something.
All I see you preach is science. I go by the words from your keyboard, to me.

Then I would say - let those who can see, see.

Where do I mislead anyone from Christianity?

Already explained

I’m here to please the Heaveny Father, not you.

Given your approach, I would sincerely question whether you are accomplishing that.

I do have a modest understanding of science.

Not demonstrated here.

I like some of the fruits of science and decry some of the other fruits of science. I also mention when science is out of place. That’s my duty, to protect my and others’ faith in Jesus Christ and the Catholic church. That faith, kbackler, comes first, not science.

What does science study? Think about it.

Your posts to me lead me to wonder if you place science too highly.

Not at all. But when someone demonstrates so little understanding as you, Edwest, Buffalo, one but bend the stick to set it straight.

 

[kbachler]

kbachler

Science describes all of reality.

No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t describe religion, even if some scientists mistakenly think it does.

It certainly doesn’t describe wisdom. Where was the wisdom in creating nuclear weapons sufficient to bring on Armageddon?

Science describes all of reality. Aspects of science describe wisdom. Science however IS NOT wisdon.

Religion is a belief that cannot be tested by repeat experimentation. Although I BELIEVE IT to be real, it does not fall within the realm of reality.

 

[buffalo]

BOTH are divine revelation. That’s the point.

Beautiful kbachler. That is what IDvolution says too. The tricky point is the human errors that can be introduced into the reasoning of our science.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=639&pictureid=7720

 

[donsnow]

Did you ask this of Christ re- the moneychangers also? Stop maing personal attacks. Deal with the issues.

First,why would you expect to see that? Do you need Christ preached to you? I thought you were already a Christian? Your apparent shortcomings are in science. Do you also have shortcomings in Christ?

Second, look at my posts in general - not just the posts to you, and you will see many references to God, Christ, and Biblical reference. In fact, this HAS occurred in the posts to you.

Then I would say - let those who can see, see.

Already explained

Given your approach, I would sincerely question whether you are accomplishing that.

Not demonstrated here.

What does science study? Think about it.

Not at all. But when someone demonstrates so little understanding as you, Edwest, Buffalo, one but bend the stick to set it straight.

kbachler,

First, science does not have the capability to exercise divine revelation, so it doesn’t.
I don’t know what you’re calling science.
But the science I respect does not aspire to divinity.

Second, I wasn’t there when Christ scourged the money changers from the Temple. Also, you’re not Christ.
As well, I was commenting on the tongue lashings you’ve been giving me in lieu of respect and straight comments.

Third, as to rest of your post, it again comprises sarcasm and an attitude of presumed superiority over me. That’s how you come across to me.

I’ve been polite and respectful and will continue to do so. But I don’t have to take your sarcasm and airs of superiority. If you continue them, I shall put you on my ignore list. Because I don’t have to take that off anybody, even you.

I don’t have to read your other posts. I’m reading the ones you direct to me. If I want to learn more about you, I look at your profile. Which I did. You have no personal information on your profile. So, that leaves your posts to me.

Since you apparently dismiss everything I write to you in the above post, I have nothing more to write in this reply to you.

How you respond to my statements to you in this post determines whether or not I put you on my ignore list.
What I want is for you to get off your high horse and treat me as a repentant sinner, because that’s what I am.

God loves you,
Don

 

[kbachler]

kbachler,

First, science does not have the capability to exercise divine revelation, so it doesn’t.
I don’t know what you’re calling science.
But the science I respect does not aspire to divinity.

Science studies God’s creation. Scientific methods are neutral; they do not “add God” to the equation. They cannot prove or disprove God.

But God’s creation is a revelation of God, and science studies it. Put it together donsnow.

Second, I wasn’t there when Christ scourged the money changers from the Temple. Also, you’re not Christ.
As well, I was commenting on the tongue lashings you’ve been giving me in lieu of respect and straight comments.

Donsnow, I did try to respect you and point out where your approach is not correct as we are instructed to do when a Christian has lost his way. Your response has been to attack me. I don’t have to respect your bad behavior.

If you wish to be respected, act like a Christian and respect those around you.

In addition “not being there” is not an excuse for bad behavior. Will you proudly go to your priest and tell him that you insinuated that another Christian was acting in ways ways associated with BDSM on a Catholic forum? What would your priest say to that?

Tell me, WHO do YOU think is acting badly? So far you’ve lied about me (previously quoted) and insulted me as above.

Let’s deal with facts.

Third, as to rest of your post, it again comprises sarcasm and an attitude of presumed superiority over me. That’s how you come across to me.

Then stop READING INTO the posts, and read what the posts actually say. Don’t add your baggage to my posts.

I’ve been polite and respectful and will continue to do so.

Oh, you respectfully lied about and respectfully insinuated that I am associated with BDSM?

Please, don’t be any more respectful, I don’t think I can handle YOUR kind of respect.

But I don’t have to take your sarcasm and airs of superiority. If you continue them, I shall put you on my ignore list. Because I don’t have to take that off anybody, even you.

But you should check your own behavior before lashing out at others.

I don’t have to read your other posts. I’m reading the ones you direct to me. If I want to learn more about you, I look at your profile. Which I did. You have no personal information on your profile. So, that leaves your posts to me.

I post to the forum, not to you. The posts are there to be read by anyone. If you ignore posts even in the same thread, then you won’t get what people are thinking.

Since you apparently dismiss everything I write to you in the above post, I have nothing more to write in this reply to you.

What did I dismiss?

How you respond to my statements to you in this post determines whether or not I put you on my ignore list.
What I want is for you to get off your high horse and treat me as a repentant sinner, because that’s what I am.

Sorry Donsnow - based upon you lying about me and insinuating I have an association with BDSM in this thread, and having yet to see an apology for either one, I’m struggling with the repentant part.

 

[kbachler]

Beautiful kbachler. That is what IDvolution says too. The tricky point is the human errors that can be introduced into the reasoning of our science.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=639&pictureid=7720

The diagram still makes little sense. It implies things that aren’t necessarily true, and creates a “mysticism” around God. God is not a mystic, Buffalo.

 

[buffalo]

The diagram still makes little sense. It implies things that aren’t necessarily true, and creates a “mysticism” around God. God is not a mystic, Buffalo.

What exactly does it imply that aren’t true?

 

[donsnow]

Science studies God’s creation. Scientific methods are neutral; they do not “add God” to the equation. They cannot prove or disprove God.

But God’s creation is a revelation of God, and science studies it. Put it together donsnow.

Donsnow, I did try to respect you and point out where your approach is not correct as we are instructed to do when a Christian has lost his way. Your response has been to attack me. I don’t have to respect your bad behavior.

If you wish to be respected, act like a Christian and respect those around you.

In addition “not being there” is not an excuse for bad behavior. Will you proudly go to your priest and tell him that you insinuated that another Christian was acting in ways ways associated with BDSM on a Catholic forum? What would your priest say to that?

Tell me, WHO do YOU think is acting badly? So far you’ve lied about me (previously quoted) and insulted me as above.

Let’s deal with facts.

Then stop READING INTO the posts, and read what the posts actually say. Don’t add your baggage to my posts.

Oh, you respectfully lied about and respectfully insinuated that I am associated with BDSM?

Please, don’t be any more respectful, I don’t think I can handle YOUR kind of respect.

But you should check your own behavior before lashing out at others.

I post to the forum, not to you. The posts are there to be read by anyone. If you ignore posts even in the same thread, then you won’t get what people are thinking.

What did I dismiss?

Sorry Donsnow - based upon you lying about me and insinuating I have an association with BDSM in this thread, and having yet to see an apology for either one, I’m struggling with the repentant part.

kbachler,

I think what we have here is too similar people (you and me) who are alike enough that there’s a personality conflict.

So, I’m going to cool off. Then, and only then, I’ll review these posts and see if I still need to put you on my ignore list.

God loves you,
Don

 

[dnar]

Science IS divine revelation. Human beings are an animal, and we can learn about ourselves by comparing to other animals. That does not justify acting like an animal.

Human beings are not animals. They were created in the image of God something animals were not.

 

[PerfectTiming]

Human beings are not animals. They were created in the image of God something animals were not.

I believe there is a quote from a Pope that does say it is not contrary to faith to believe it is in soul not body that we are created in the image of God, and it is not unreasonable to suggest that the body was created through evolutionary means and in this way it could be argued that in at least a physical sense humans are animals.

 

[edwest2]

Though it is tempting to look to science, it can only give us some clues.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides the complete answer.

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

Peace,
Ed