Churches rejecting science altogether

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Hi, grannymh,

Last week, one of the email newsletters I subscribe to had an article about a rice being developed to feed children in third world nations so the children can survive diarrhea and dysentery. It had some other DNA added to it to accomplish that. I don’t know if I can find that newsletter, because I can’t remember if the recombinant DNA in that rice were human or animal. The article said a test field is being grown in Kansas, because there’s no other rice fields in Kansas for that crop to contaminate.
Since I remember the article upsetting me so, I would say the recombinant DNA in that rice is a protein from human DNA.

Just for the record, my doctor knows I turn down a life extending treatment. Mixed DNA in GM foods is one I would also turn down, if the package admitted that.
Please don’t think me cruel nor naive when I believe that “Keep faith to death” in the scriptures means what it says.

God loves you,
Don
From a very brief search, I found the scientific description of one of the “rice” projects in Europe. As far as I can tell, plants and maybe some kind of chemical are serving as a source for improving rice. It also looks like only a small specific part or tiny fraction of DNA is being used. Each minute particular bit has one particular function which happens to be lacking in rice. In a sense, it reminded me of grafting plants and trees. This does not mean that everything is hunky-dory. Caution needs to be exercised.

I respect the people who are concerned about genetics.

Blessings,
granny

THE HOLY EUCHARIST
IS THE LIGHT, STRENGTH, AND LIFE OF OUR SOULS.
 
"
Hi, Glennonite,
Ok, in the Roman Catholic translations, “science” in I Timothy 6, 20 is rendered as “knowledge”. So, from the King James Version:
1 Timothy 6,20 “O, Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:”
"
Got it, thanks. It was the KJV that got me. I don’t usually go to that source unless I’m trying to understand something from a Protestant perspective. Now I know. 🙂

Glennonite
 
From a very brief search, I found the scientific description of one of the “rice” projects in Europe. As far as I can tell, plants and maybe some kind of chemical are serving as a source for improving rice. It also looks like only a small specific part or tiny fraction of DNA is being used. Each minute particular bit has one particular function which happens to be lacking in rice. In a sense, it reminded me of grafting plants and trees. This does not mean that everything is hunky-dory. Caution needs to be exercised.
Yes, you are correct. A few days ago I wrote this in my first post on this subject:

“In addition there is a project to express, in rice, recombinant human proteins normally found in human milk (immunoglobulins, lactoferrin and lysozyme) that provide neonates and infants with resistance to infection and the ability to recover more quickly from infection so that milk formula can more readily mimic the benefits of human milk - a project that has particular resonance in areas of deprivation, war, famine and epidemics.”

Each one of these proteins is expressed by the inclusion of a single one of the 20,000 or so different human genes (or a gene plus promoter) - the fragments of human DNA inserted into the rice are relatively tiny and quite often are not even incorporated into the rice genome - in some cases they remain as fragments in either the nucleus or cell organelles of the host cells and are expressed using the host cell translation and protein synthesis mechanisms.

I agree with you (and Don) that we need to be careful about what biotechnology we embrace and what we reject. Not all things that can be done should be done. It is not the job of scientists alone to determine that but the responsibility of the community as a whole taking into account the full range of sensitivities, concerns, benefits and problems, as well as the advice of the scientific community. It’s my view that the specific technology of recombinant protein manufacture for therapeutic and nutritional use is, in principle, an acceptable one. That also seems to be the view of the Catholic Church. The Church has strong bio-ethical views on many topics and does not hesitate to publicise them. Recombinant protein therapy has existed for 25+ years and is in widespread use, and if the Church considered it evil, she would have made it clear by now.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
From a very brief search, I found the scientific description of one of the “rice” projects in Europe. As far as I can tell, plants and maybe some kind of chemical are serving as a source for improving rice. It also looks like only a small specific part or tiny fraction of DNA is being used. Each minute particular bit has one particular function which happens to be lacking in rice. In a sense, it reminded me of grafting plants and trees. This does not mean that everything is hunky-dory. Caution needs to be exercised.

I respect the people who are concerned about genetics.

Blessings,
granny

THE HOLY EUCHARIST
IS THE LIGHT, STRENGTH, AND LIFE OF OUR SOULS.
Hi, granny,

Thanks for the information.

I wouldn’t mind, if some other plant has the DNA marker that’s needed in the rice.
As you well know, as well as directing the flesh, DNA is flesh. I’m as opposed to mixing one animal’s DNA with another animal’s DNA as I am opposed to mixing human DNA with anything that’s not human.

God loves you,
Don
 
“”
Got it, thanks. It was the KJV that got me. I don’t usually go to that source unless I’m trying to understand something from a Protestant perspective. Now I know. 🙂

Glennonite
Hi, Glennonite,

I was raised on the KJV, so I have one in the house for nostalgia’s sake. I have several Catholic translations as well as a Catholic Layman’s Parallel Bible, which includes four translations. I also have an English translation by the Jewish Publication Society of the Torah. And, two English translations of an annotated and an unannotated Koran.
I stopped reading the Koran at the end of the second Sura, because of a claim in that Sura.

Since I’m Christian, my favorite holy book is our Holy Bible.

God loves you,
Don
 
To be fair to Don, this isn’t what he has a problem with. He has a problem with all cases where some genes of one species are inserted into the genome in the cells of another species in order to express the proteins because he believes that the natural DNA sequence of all organisms is God-given and shouldn’t be tampered with (whatever the source of the DNA fragments that are inserted). That’s his view and I have no problem with him having that view - that’s his business (although, of course, I disagree with the view). What I do have a problem with is where he represents that as being the view of the Church (which it isn’t), and where he berates scientists for producing recombinant proteins because, in his view, it should be obvious to them that the process is evil.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Wasn’t commenting with respect to Don; just clarifying that it is still charity.
 
Yes, you are correct. A few days ago I wrote this in my first post on this subject:

“In addition there is a project to express, in rice, recombinant human proteins normally found in human milk (immunoglobulins, lactoferrin and lysozyme) that provide neonates and infants with resistance to infection and the ability to recover more quickly from infection so that milk formula can more readily mimic the benefits of human milk - a project that has particular resonance in areas of deprivation, war, famine and epidemics.”

Each one of these proteins is expressed by the inclusion of a single one of the 20,000 or so different human genes (or a gene plus promoter) - the fragments of human DNA inserted into the rice are relatively tiny and quite often are not even incorporated into the rice genome - in some cases they remain as fragments in either the nucleus or cell organelles of the host cells and are expressed using the host cell translation and protein synthesis mechanisms.

I agree with you (and Don) that we need to be careful about what biotechnology we embrace and what we reject. Not all things that can be done should be done. It is not the job of scientists alone to determine that but the responsibility of the community as a whole taking into account the full range of sensitivities, concerns, benefits and problems, as well as the advice of the scientific community. It’s my view that the specific technology of recombinant protein manufacture for therapeutic and nutritional use is, in principle, an acceptable one. That also seems to be the view of the Catholic Church. The Church has strong bio-ethical views on many topics and does not hesitate to publicise them. Recombinant protein therapy has existed for 25+ years and is in widespread use, and if the Church considered it evil, she would have made it clear by now.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Hi, Alec,

I appreciate your view.
Since I try not to spend too much time online, I seldom do research. But, when I do, I dig as far as needed. Since I endeavor to avoid a confrontational stance, I’m not likely to dig for something that would upset me.

I accept the Church as the primary earthly authority over me. So, I just hope it’s conservative and not liberal Church authorities who speak for the Church about recombinant processes using human genes.

God loves you,
Don
 
It seems I left off on page 24. Alec (hecd2) mentioned on the bottom of that page about recombinant insulin.

I’d like to mention that I support the World Health Organization. Here’s an excerpt from a WHO dated 12/2010, Introduction, p. iv:

*More than 50 years ago, WHO established the International Nonproprietary Name (INN) Expert Group/ WHO Expert Committee on Specifications for Pharmaceutical Preparations, to assign nonproprietary names to medicinal substances, so that each substance would be recognized globally by a unique name. These INNs do not give proprietary rights, unlike a trade mark, and can be used freely as they are public property. INNs have been assigned to biological products since the early days of the INN Programme. As well as many names for individual substances, animal insulin preparations were given an INN in Recommended list 3 in 1959. In the period up to 1980, names were assigned to antibiotics, synthetic peptides, hormones and other proteins. In names of compounds related by structure and / or function, specific letter groups, called stems, are included to aid recognition by health professionals. The -actide for synthetic polypeptides with a corticotrophin-like action is an example.

In 1982, the name insulin human was proposed for the recombinant protein identical to natural human insulin, and since then names have been assigned to a growing number of recombinant products. Within the INN Programme, names have not been assigned to natural human blood products or vaccines. For those groups of biological products, the WHO Expert Committee on Biological Standardization (ECBS) has been adopting the scientific names of the biological products within the definitions of respective requirements.

Since the time when insulin human became the first recommended INN (rINN) for a recombinant product, the range of biological / biotechnological products has increased in size and complexity. For example, new stems have been introduced for tissue plasminogen activators (-plase) among other groups. Analogues of recombinant glycosylated proteins produced in different cell systems have been classified using Greek letters as indicators in the sequence of product introduction: erythropoietin (epoetin alfa, beta and so on) and glycoprotein hormones (follitropin) are examples. In the 1990s, a systematic scheme for naming monoclonal antibodies was implemented, based on the stem -mab, which indicates the origin (mouse, human, etc) of the antibody and its intended use: tumour, immunomodulator and so on.

As a result of the scientific and technical developments currently taking place, new products of biotechnology and other biological products are being introduced and more products can be expected for the treatment or prevention of disease. Examples of such new products include recombinant blood products, transgenic products (human proteins expressed in animals or plants), products for gene therapy and novel vaccines.*
who.int/medicines/services/inn/BioRev2010.pdf

I’m battling a cold right now (nasty cough). This doesn’t stop me from enjoying a hot cup of fresh brewed Taylors of Harrogate’s YORKSHIRE TEA. It’s a classic black tea blend with a lovely refreshing flavor. 🙂
 
I think some of the things that separate humans from the animal kingdom is that humans have the God given ability to reason and to project that reasoning ability into language, speech, technology, imagination, and awareness; but I think more important than that is that humans also have the God given ability to realize and understand ethics, morals, and justice. I think that the evolutionists have spent so much time and energy attempting to train certain animals to act like humans that the evolutionists seem to have developed a proclivity to put animals doing tricks on equal footing with human emotions such as love, joy, and affection.
The fault in your reasoning is that animals do have the ability to reason, though domestication can limit it. Wild wolves are capable of solving problems of food access that most domesticated dogs cannot. When a dog wants to go for a walk, master does not get the message, and the dog grabs the leash that indicates reasoning rather than just conditioning because the dog not only associates the leash with taking a walk, but expects the master will as well.

The fault in your reasoning is that animnals do develop language and speech, as in the howls of wolves, and the songs of whales, with often significant complexity in what they convey.

The fault in your reasoning is that they do develop technology, as in the nests of birds, the air circulation systems in burrows of prairie dogs, and the chimpanzee’s use of tools – all in nautre without human influence or intervention.

The fault in your reasoning is that animals do have imagination and awareness. Orcas not only communicate, but have individual names for each olther, which they recall after years of separation. They are aware they are being watched by man, and play up to that. For a brief period several decades ago a pod under observation in Puget Sound began intentionally putting on shows for their observers. They stunned salmon, and before eating them juggled them around during hops, or balanced them on the tips of their noses, and shortly after that abruptly stopped the behavior. It was not a normal behavior, but quite entertaining to thier observers. Its implications from a communication standpoint as evidence of imagination and awareness are compelling.

Animals also exercise ethics, morals, and justice, though following their own exigencies rather than human abstractions. They understand their own genetic rules on recognizing territorial boundaries, and protecting their own family groups above those outside. Predators rarely kill more than they can eat, or just for fun. Porpoises have been known to rescue humans at sea. They recognize social orders and generally comply with them.

Dogs have been proven to have a sense of fairness in formal studies. Anecdotally, a somewhat famous stray dog named Bum who befriended an abandoned blind burro named Shorty in Fairplay, Colo. (mid-20th Century) when given food always carried it to Shorty first then accepted a portion for himself. This was not a trained behavior. Bum also led Shorty to the greener parts of pastures for better food than the aging burro could find on his own. The town maintains a monument to these two animals to this day.

Also anecdotally, a relative of mine had a dog with a litter in the house, and a cat with a litter in the barn. He killed the cat’s litter, three kittens. The cat later got into the house and killed exactly three puppies, but left the others.

Before parroting such sweeping fallacial statements from those who are not fully informed you should perhaps examine “Sociobiology” by E.O. Wilson and “The Triumph of Sociobiology” by James Alcock. I would recommend in association with those “The Bridge to Humanity: How Affect Hunger Trumps the Selfish Gene” by Walter Goldschmidt, “Attachment, Evolution, and the Psychology of Religion,” by Lee Kirkpatrick, and “Darwin’s Cathedral: Evolution, Religion, and the Nature of Society” by David Sloan Wilson.

These create a very clear picture of how all of Creation has the same inherent tendencies connecting us with our Creator. We are mere creatures without baptism, which is how we become children of God. However, our affinity for the divine is carved so deep within our genes that seeking it emerges biologically even without divine intervention. As the Catechism says, God reaches out to Man, and Man responds. The Bible is the story of how this advancement of our relationship with God transpired and our rise from being creatures to slowly understanding where we exist before our Creator.

What makes us special is that the Creator, through his incarnation, chose to expereince his own creation firsthand as a human, and that is an eternal part of his indentity. That sancitifies what we are, and has nothing to do with humnanity on its own. It is by our biological connection to the rest of Creation that his Incarnation sanctifies all the rest of Creation as well. I intend this not as past tense or presnt tense. It is. It remains part of God’s eternal nature and this connection we provide woth all else is part of what makes us special in his eyes – not of our own nature, but of his nature in us through Christ.
 
Well, Peter John,

Until my dogs have their own wallets and go shopping with me to buy their own clothes and can dress themselves, you will remain unable to convince me that humans aren’t different from animals.
And, my dogs will remain in their original pelts, thank you.

God loves you,
Don
 
The fault in your reasoning is that animals do have the ability to reason, though domestication can limit it. Wild wolves are capable of solving problems of food access that most domesticated dogs cannot. When a dog wants to go for a walk, master does not get the message, and the dog grabs the leash that indicates reasoning rather than just conditioning because the dog not only associates the leash with taking a walk, but expects the master will as well.

The fault in your reasoning is that animnals do develop language and speech, as in the howls of wolves, and the songs of whales, with often significant complexity in what they convey.

The fault in your reasoning is that they do develop technology, as in the nests of birds, the air circulation systems in burrows of prairie dogs, and the chimpanzee’s use of tools – all in nautre without human influence or intervention.

The fault in your reasoning is that animals do have imagination and awareness. Orcas not only communicate, but have individual names for each olther, which they recall after years of separation. They are aware they are being watched by man, and play up to that. For a brief period several decades ago a pod under observation in Puget Sound began intentionally putting on shows for their observers. They stunned salmon, and before eating them juggled them around during hops, or balanced them on the tips of their noses, and shortly after that abruptly stopped the behavior. It was not a normal behavior, but quite entertaining to thier observers. Its implications from a communication standpoint as evidence of imagination and awareness are compelling.

Animals also exercise ethics, morals, and justice, though following their own exigencies rather than human abstractions. They understand their own genetic rules on recognizing territorial boundaries, and protecting their own family groups above those outside. Predators rarely kill more than they can eat, or just for fun. Porpoises have been known to rescue humans at sea. They recognize social orders and generally comply with them.

Dogs have been proven to have a sense of fairness in formal studies. Anecdotally, a somewhat famous stray dog named Bum who befriended an abandoned blind burro named Shorty in Fairplay, Colo. (mid-20th Century) when given food always carried it to Shorty first then accepted a portion for himself. This was not a trained behavior. Bum also led Shorty to the greener parts of pastures for better food than the aging burro could find on his own. The town maintains a monument to these two animals to this day.

Also anecdotally, a relative of mine had a dog with a litter in the house, and a cat with a litter in the barn. He killed the cat’s litter, three kittens. The cat later got into the house and killed exactly three puppies, but left the others.
Understanding the scientific method and getting a feel for how research is conducted in nature are two reasons for not rejecting science altogether. For example, one can learn what capabilities are found in animals. The samples in post 387 would be considered species specific even though some natural functions would be considered common; for example, the survival instinct.

Post 304 which is the one Peter John responded to says in part.
I think some of the things that separate humans from the animal kingdom is that humans have the God given ability to reason and to project that reasoning ability into language, speech, technology, imagination, and awareness; but I think more important than that is that humans also have the God given ability to realize and understand ethics, morals, and justice.
The operative word is separate.
The media, including pop magazines, like to claim that animals have the same abilities/faculties/skills/talents that you and I have. See samples in post 387. Many scientists say that animals are separate from humans in degrees. In other words, we and the animals in the wild or domesticated are basically sentient creatures. Some animals can run faster than us, while we can build skyscraper nests.

Catholicism teaches that the human person is an unique unification of the material and spiritual worlds. Thus, not only is our species separate from animals, it is different in kind, i.e., our species is totally different from our pets.

We are not mere creatures at birth. Humans are peerless from the moment of conception.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception until the moment of death.
 
These create a very clear picture of how all of Creation has the same inherent tendencies connecting us with our Creator. We are mere creatures without baptism, which is how we become children of God.
Actually, at the moment of conception, the human person is soul and body. Amazing!
However, our affinity for the divine is carved so deep within our genes that seeking it emerges biologically even without divine intervention.
Somewhere there is a previous thread on the god gene. Regardless, genes are considered matter, whereas our soul is spiritual. Now the spiritual does not emerge as a biological epiphenomenon. Our souls are directly created by God, a Pure Spirit without restrictions.
As the Catechism says, God reaches out to Man, and Man responds.
Below, I will post Catechism citations about human nature and the relationship of the first man to his Creator.
The Bible is the story of how this advancement of our relationship with God transpired and our rise from being creatures to slowly understanding where we exist before our Creator.
The Catechism makes it clear what we are at the get-go. Please see citation below.
What makes us special is that the Creator, through his incarnation, chose to expereince his own creation firsthand as a human, and that is an eternal part of his indentity. That sancitifies what we are, and has nothing to do with humnanity on its own. It is by our biological connection to the rest of Creation that his Incarnation sanctifies all the rest of Creation as well. I intend this not as past tense or presnt tense. It is. It remains part of God’s eternal nature and this connection we provide woth all else is part of what makes us special in his eyes – not of our own nature, but of his nature in us through Christ.
Wow!
Does this ever exclude a lot of Catholic doctrines, too numerous to mention!:eek:

I do realize, that there are areas where Catholics have watered down our beautiful Faith in order to fit in with faith/science crowd. I realize that there are Catholics who have chosen to follow people like Matthew Fox who avoided the concept of original sin. Then there are the Catholics who make Adam and Eve into something symbolic of some kind of truth.

My humble suggestion is to find a good home study course on Catholicism and then start studying the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

Blessings,
granny

Basic Catholic teaching regarding human beings and our relationship with God
is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Entering topics is also very useful since the Catechism does expand on the basics and implications. . Do check out the references in the margins and in the Index.

When one enters a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then clicks on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 the following is under the paragraph:

»
»
Table of Contents
»
 
The fault in your reasoning is that animals do have the ability to reason, though domestication can limit it. Wild wolves are capable of solving problems of food access that most domesticated dogs cannot. When a dog wants to go for a walk, master does not get the message, and the dog grabs the leash that indicates reasoning rather than just conditioning because the dog not only associates the leash with taking a walk, but expects the master will as well.

The fault in your reasoning is that animnals do develop language and speech, as in the howls of wolves, and the songs of whales, with often significant complexity in what they convey.

The fault in your reasoning is that they do develop technology, as in the nests of birds, the air circulation systems in burrows of prairie dogs, and the chimpanzee’s use of tools – all in nautre without human influence or intervention.

The fault in your reasoning is that animals do have imagination and awareness. Orcas not only communicate, but have individual names for each olther, which they recall after years of separation. They are aware they are being watched by man, and play up to that. For a brief period several decades ago a pod under observation in Puget Sound began intentionally putting on shows for their observers. They stunned salmon, and before eating them juggled them around during hops, or balanced them on the tips of their noses, and shortly after that abruptly stopped the behavior. It was not a normal behavior, but quite entertaining to thier observers. Its implications from a communication standpoint as evidence of imagination and awareness are compelling.

Animals also exercise ethics, morals, and justice, though following their own exigencies rather than human abstractions. They understand their own genetic rules on recognizing territorial boundaries, and protecting their own family groups above those outside. Predators rarely kill more than they can eat, or just for fun. Porpoises have been known to rescue humans at sea. They recognize social orders and generally comply with them.

Dogs have been proven to have a sense of fairness in formal studies. Anecdotally, a somewhat famous stray dog named Bum who befriended an abandoned blind burro named Shorty in Fairplay, Colo. (mid-20th Century) when given food always carried it to Shorty first then accepted a portion for himself. This was not a trained behavior. Bum also led Shorty to the greener parts of pastures for better food than the aging burro could find on his own. The town maintains a monument to these two animals to this day.

Also anecdotally, a relative of mine had a dog with a litter in the house, and a cat with a litter in the barn. He killed the cat’s litter, three kittens. The cat later got into the house and killed exactly three puppies, but left the others.

Before parroting such sweeping fallacial statements from those who are not fully informed you should perhaps examine “Sociobiology” by E.O. Wilson and “The Triumph of Sociobiology” by James Alcock. I would recommend in association with those “The Bridge to Humanity: How Affect Hunger Trumps the Selfish Gene” by Walter Goldschmidt, “Attachment, Evolution, and the Psychology of Religion,” by Lee Kirkpatrick, and “Darwin’s Cathedral: Evolution, Religion, and the Nature of Society” by David Sloan Wilson.
[snip]
Hi Peter John, nice to meet you.🙂 I realize you weren’t talking to me when you wrote the above. Hope you don’t mind that I snipped off the section about the religion only because I really enjoyed reading what you wrote since the Catechism, or anything related to God isn’t science. Here is a good example of religion and not science: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20100403_veglia-pasquale_en.html.

Honestly, I personally don’t think it’s wise to mix science and religion. Some individuals here become rather upset if they don’t get their way and want to declare war on those who don’t agree with them. We don’t all think or act alike; not even twins according to Francis Collins who is on the Vatican’s Scientific Advisory Committee.

Retuning to the scientific aspect of what you have written, you may like to review my messages 343, 345, and 356 that I have already posted to this topic. Science isn’t philosophy nor is it religion. What is science? You can read about it over here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7610272#post7610272 .

Getting back to what you have beautifully written, I’d like to share with you two articles that might interest you:
  1. National Institutes of Health has an article from April 11, 2011 entitled More Young
    Neurons Equals Better Brain Function.

    nih.gov/researchmatters/april2011/04112011brainfunction.htm
  2. Howard Hughes Medical Institute seems to address some of your comments.
    hhmi.org/askascientist/answers/20080909-13.html
I travel quite often and not too long ago learned that Shouka the Killer Whale (Orcinus orca) can vocalize with excitement during a variety of activities such as painting, mimicking her trainers and eating rice! 😃

Thanks again. 🙂 Hey, I have a 4 month old puppy named Grace. She was only two weeks old when given to me. They said she was a spaniel. She is a retreiver with beagle ears! Really smart puppy. I took her on a trip with me and she behaved really well. I give her lots of love and attention. 🙂 Take care and may God (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) continue to bless you.
 
I’ve been a member of the Christian community on another site for ages now and some of their opinions on science have been increasingly worrying me. They seem to believe science to be this vicious evil and that all science is lies from the Devil, etc. This seems to come from a variety of churches, since there’s no predominant denomination among the community. Without any bias, and with no offence intended to those who do this, I have noticed many of them are home-schooled (how relevant this is is obviously debatable).

Maybe this is just because I’m a scientist by nature but surely teaching children this level of complete enmity and disregard for science is unhealthy and detrimental to them. I’ve heard people talk about how scientists are stupid and it’s all ridiculous. I’m all for teaching children a healthy skepticism and there are aspects of mainstream scientific opinion I am very skeptical about myself but there are also incredibly important teachings that science gives us.

To me it seems wrong for parents or pastors or whoever to be teaching children this but I’m curious to see what other people think.
Many people don’t like facts.

So it is easier to demonize the facts and pretend they are lies.

In the end, the only lie is found in those who do this, that is, those who lie to themselves and others in the face of facts. A nice word for it is denial.
 
Well, Peter John,

Until my dogs have their own wallets and go shopping with me to buy their own clothes and can dress themselves, you will remain unable to convince me that humans aren’t different from animals.
And, my dogs will remain in their original pelts, thank you.

God loves you,
Don
Dear Don,

It does not sound like you read the end of my post. I never stated “humans aren’t different from animals.” I affirmed that reasoning, language, speech, technology, imagination, awareness, ethics, morals, and justice do not distinguish us from other animals. God’s desire to incarnate as a human being, and eventual actualization of this, distinguish us from other animals.

That is what being created in the image of God means, unless you believe God had a physical body before His Incarnation. Even before He created Man, within Himself God perceived His Incarnation as the Son of Man – as expressed from God’s perspective (Son of God is our perspective). He created Man in that image, from which our vanity has yet to recover.

Otherwise. you offer an invalid comparison. I might as well affirm that until you can (without mechanical assistance) fly thousands of miles and find your way back , make extra low frequency soundings to perceive landscapes for a 600 mile radius, or perceive infrared or ultraviolet light spectra with your eyes, you will not convince me that man’s different capabilities from other animals make us any better than them. Indeed, most of our technology weakly mimics what animals do better on their own.

I do want to commend you for apparently using your real name and image in your posts. I respect you immensely for this.
 
Understanding the scientific method and getting a feel for how research is conducted in nature are two reasons for not rejecting science altogether. For example, one can learn what capabilities are found in animals. The samples in post 387 would be considered species specific even though some natural functions would be considered common; for example, the survival instinct.

Post 304 which is the one Peter John responded to says in part.

The operative word is separate.
The media, including pop magazines, like to claim that animals have the same abilities/faculties/skills/talents that you and I have. See samples in post 387. Many scientists say that animals are separate from humans in degrees. In other words, we and the animals in the wild or domesticated are basically sentient creatures. Some animals can run faster than us, while we can build skyscraper nests.

Catholicism teaches that the human person is an unique unification of the material and spiritual worlds. Thus, not only is our species separate from animals, it is different in kind, i.e., our species is totally different from our pets.

We are not mere creatures at birth. Humans are peerless from the moment of conception.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception until the moment of death.
I don’t understand the concern over the classification of humans as animals. There is ADDITIONAL CLASSIFICATION that defines them separately from other animals. Everyone seems to take the “beginning point” as an endpoint. Why misrepresent - or misunderstand - the truth in that way.

But the reason I chose this post as the one to reply to actually deals with an anecdotal story about my dog, Spot.

Spot was a border collie. I met him at a shelter, and he had been put up for adoption. There was something in the look on his face that day that showed a sadness, a worriedness, that I had not seen in other dogs. He was 6 months old.

Spot immediately showed himself different from other breeds - some very smart dogs - that I had owned in the past. He was more curious, and more playful. I would be out for the day and he would actually open kitchen cabinets and take pots, pans and other things out of the lower cabinets.

When Spot would go outside, he would watch and guard our yard from a high point. When he was done being outside, he would come to the door and give a single loud bark. But the whenever he was let out in the early morning, he would come back to the door and give a single, nearly whispered woof.

Over the years, he showed himself to be a smart dog. But one event in particular stood out.

Spot had a few favorite toys. He had one toy in particular - an “octopus” that would squeak. He particularly liked toys that were “dangly”. This one toy he was very protective of. He wouldn’t let the other dogs have it, and he would even get upset when I would pick it up.

One day my father was in town visiting us, and he had brought his dog, Buddy, along for the visit. Buddy and Spot got along well and would play together. During the day Buddy did something bad - and my dad scolded Buddy vigorously. My wife and I noticed Spot watching - big eyed. Buddy put his head down, and laid down on the floor and stayed there as my father scolded him.

When he was done being scolded, Buddy stayed there, seemingly down from his scolding. We watched as Spot went to his “toy box” and came back with his favorite octopus, laid it down in front of Buddy, and when Buddy didn’t immediately cheer up, nudged it toward him with his nose.

I’ve had many pets that I loved. I’ve had only one that touched me deeply. I choose to believe that a compassionate God will bestow compassion upon a pet that displays compassion.

There are other stories I could share about Spot. They are not scientific proof - they are anecdotal. But this dog changed the way I personally feel about dogs/animals. I pray that there is a spot for Spot in heaven.
 
Dear Don,

It does not sound like you read the end of my post. I never stated “humans aren’t different from animals.” I affirmed that reasoning, language, speech, technology, imagination, awareness, ethics, morals, and justice do not distinguish us from other animals. God’s desire to incarnate as a human being, and eventual actualization of this, distinguish us from other animals.

That is what being created in the image of God means, unless you believe God had a physical body before His Incarnation. Even before He created Man, within Himself God perceived His Incarnation as the Son of Man – as expressed from God’s perspective (Son of God is our perspective). He created Man in that image, from which our vanity has yet to recover.

Otherwise. you offer an invalid comparison. I might as well affirm that until you can (without mechanical assistance) fly thousands of miles and find your way back , make extra low frequency soundings to perceive landscapes for a 600 mile radius, or perceive infrared or ultraviolet light spectra with your eyes, you will not convince me that man’s different capabilities from other animals make us any better than them. Indeed, most of our technology weakly mimics what animals do better on their own.

I do want to commend you for apparently using your real name and image in your posts. I respect you immensely for this.
Hi, Peter John,

Thank you, for your response.

I still think that humans aren’t animals. Like my signature says, “We’re all God’s creatures…but only some of us can be His children.” God does not have animals for children. He has us. We’re not animals.
(BTW, "creatures in that quote include plants, waters, cloud, terrain, animals, this planet, moons, the sun, the other stars, comets, any and everything He has created and is creating.)

God loves you,
Don
 
Hi, Peter John,

Thank you, for your response.

I still think that humans aren’t animals. Like my signature says, “We’re all God’s creatures…but only some of us can be His children.” God does not have animals for children. He has us. We’re not animals.
(BTW, "creatures in that quote include plants, waters, cloud, terrain, animals, this planet, moons, the sun, the other stars, comets, any and everything He has created and is creating.)

God loves you,
Don
I’m sorry, Don. We meet the definition of animals, so we are animals. Now, we are animals AND MORE, but we are still animals.
 
I don’t understand the concern over the classification of humans as animals. There is ADDITIONAL CLASSIFICATION that defines them separately from other animals. Everyone seems to take the “beginning point” as an endpoint. Why misrepresent - or misunderstand - the truth in that way.
Without violating the ban on evolution discussion, who do you say makes the additional classification? And what is the classification? Please.

Border Collies are known for their highly development instincts and their ability to “learn” their profession or the situations in which they are. You are fortunate to have Spot who is clearly top of the line.
 
I’m sorry, Don. We meet the definition of animals, so we are animals. Now, we are animals AND MORE, but we are still animals.
Note: post 397 still needs two answers. Thank you.

Here’s another question. What is science’s definition of human animals? And yes, I am leading up to why some people reject science.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
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