Churches rejecting science altogether

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kbachler said:
Don, no subject is an authority because an authority is a person - not an area of study. The argument regarding moral authority is a non sequitur within this context; they do not claim that, that is no reason to reject them.

My sense is that many Christians would better understand God if they understood math at least through calculus. It changes your thinking, and leads to understanding not easily possible without it.
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Well, kbachler,

The Church’s moral authority is never a non-sequiter.

Then, thank you for pointing out about the difference between establishments and the scientists and mathematicians in them, none of which of those academics are authorities at large, but only in their respective establishments.

I personally, having written poetry and music about God and His glory, do not require other Christians to become knowledgeable of writing, to better understand God. I can’t help but view scientists and mathematicians who think lay people should understand more science and math, those academics as snobs who expect too much from ordinary people.

There are people studying and working their butts off in all sorts of vocations and professional fields, of which you have little understanding, who consequently don’t have time to study math. Just like you don’t have time to study auto mechanics, air conditioning, law, medicine and such.

The only person’s understanding of God for which you are responsible is yourself. No one else’s. Let God reveal Himself to each person as He will, it’s not your responsibility, until His spirit moves you to share your understanding of God with others, imho.

I think that God and math and words have been interacting for thousands of years. Words are good enough for God to use to reach people, they should be good enough for anybody else. I think that the further intimacy you share with God through math is private to you and Him. Cherish that.

God loves you,
Don
 
donsnow said:
Well, kbachler,

The Church’s moral authority is never a non-sequiter.

Then, thank you for pointing out about the difference between establishments and the scientists and mathematicians in them, none of which of those academics are authorities at large, but only in their respective establishments.

I personally, having written poetry and music about God and His glory, do not require other Christians to become knowledgeable of writing, to better understand God. I can’t help but view scientists and mathematicians who think lay people should understand more science and math, those academics as snobs who expect too much from ordinary people.

There are people studying and working their butts off in all sorts of vocations and professional fields, of which you have little understanding, who consequently don’t have time to study math. Just like you don’t have time to study auto mechanics, air conditioning, law, medicine and such.

The only person’s understanding of God for which you are responsible is yourself. No one else’s. Let God reveal Himself to each person as He will, it’s not your responsibility, until His spirit moves you to share your understanding of God with others, imho.

I think that God and math and words have been interacting for thousands of years. Words are good enough for God to use to reach people, they should be good enough for anybody else. I think that the further intimacy you share with God through math is private to you and Him. Cherish that.

God loves you,
Don
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Don, the church’s moral authority is a non sequitur whenever the topic is something else.

Math is words and language. In all likelihood, the first use of “writing” was math (aritihmetic.) Rudimentary understanding of mathematics should be a core requiement for everyone, not a select few. One might easily extend your argument to say that writing is good enough for some people, we can all speak, we don’t need to learn how to write. Clearly this IS NOT a correct argument, just as your argument regarding math is not correct.
 
kbachler said:
Don, the church’s moral authority is a non sequitur whenever the topic is something else.

Math is words and language. In all likelihood, the first use of “writing” was math (aritihmetic.) Rudimentary understanding of mathematics should be a core requiement for everyone, not a select few. One might easily extend your argument to say that writing is good enough for some people, we can all speak, we don’t need to learn how to write. Clearly this IS NOT a correct argument, just as your argument regarding math is not correct.
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Well, kbachler,

I respectfully disagree.

Since the Church’s moral authority spreads throughout all topics, it remains germane in all topics, imho.

When I was in school, the three R’s were Reading, wRiting and 'Rithmatic, all through Grade school, Junior High School and Senior High School, the basics of those fields were taught and developed.

I recognize the significance of math. You come across as preaching it. The only thing important enough to preach, imho, is the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Holy Roman Catholic Church, nothing else.

God loves you,
Don
 
Depending on which test one uses, the US is now around 20-30 among industrialized nations in math and science. Foreigners who come here to study in college are now returning home afterwards because they don’t want their children in our public schools. Math and science among Christians is unfortunately often disdained, even though it may represent the greatest observable knowledge of God.

Your argument is difficult to buy into on practically any level.
 
donsnow said:
Well, kbachler,

I respectfully disagree.

Since the Church’s moral authority spreads throughout all topics, it remains germane in all topics, imho.

When I was in school, the three R’s were Reading, wRiting and 'Rithmatic, all through Grade school, Junior High School and Senior High School, the basics of those fields were taught and developed.

I recognize the significance of math. You come across as preaching it. The only thing important enough to preach, imho, is the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Holy Roman Catholic Church, nothing else.

God loves you,
Don
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Are you familiar with the history of Islamic science? Its an excellent cautionary tale of what happens when we put religion too far in front of science:
youtube.com/watch?v=tIMifWU5ucU
 
kbachler said:
Depending on which test one uses, the US is now around 20-30 among industrialized nations in math and science. Foreigners who come here to study in college are now returning home afterwards because they don’t want their children in our public schools. Math and science among Christians is unfortunately often disdained, even though it may represent the greatest observable knowledge of God.

Your argument is difficult to buy into on practically any level.
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Hi, kbachler,

My argument is not for sale. It’s just a different viewpoint with different priorities than your viewpoint and priorities.

I know that math can illuminate many of God’s mysteries, by faith. But without all the other professions and vocations, some of which exercise math as a servant to achieve their productions, our civilization would not be as prosperous and free as we are. It’s the word of God, not the numbers, that illuminate my mind, as well as the majestic musical compositions which have come down through the ages.
These are not better than math. They are part of how I relate to God.

I repeat, may you always cherish the intimacy with God which your mathematics yield to you.

God loves you,
Don
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
Are you familiar with the history of Islamic science? Its an excellent cautionary tale of what happens when we put religion too far in front of science:
youtube.com/watch?v=tIMifWU5ucU
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Hi, TheTrueCentrist,

I am nominally acquainted with some history of Islam. However, not only in their history, but also in their current events, we see the results of putting their religion before science.

Actually, if you look closely, I speak of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not just ‘religion’ as the most important thing in life. People can live that Gospel and still exercise their mathematical gifts as well as perform as good researchers, engineers, mathematicians, scientists, etc.

I really can’t go along with dumping Christendom in with the other world religions and term them equal. Jesus Christ will return in triumph over all the armies and other religions of the world. No sense in sugar coating that, to mislead people. Eternal souls are at stake.

God loves you,
Don
 
donsnow said:
Hi, kbachler,

My argument is not for sale. It’s just a different viewpoint with different priorities than your viewpoint and priorities.

I know that math can illuminate many of God’s mysteries, by faith. But without all the other professions and vocations, some of which exercise math as a servant to achieve their productions, our civilization would not be as prosperous and free as we are. It’s the word of God, not the numbers, that illuminate my mind, as well as the majestic musical compositions which have come down through the ages.
These are not better than math. They are part of how I relate to God.

I repeat, may you always cherish the intimacy with God which your mathematics yield to you.

God loves you,
Don
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Nearly every profession uses mathematics, just as many also use writing. You underestimate the importance. I suggest you read a good book on the topic - Innumeracy.
 
donsnow said:
Hi, TheTrueCentrist,

I am nominally acquainted with some history of Islam. However, not only in their history, but also in their current events, we see the results of putting their religion before science.

Actually, if you look closely, I speak of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not just ‘religion’ as the most important thing in life. People can live that Gospel and still exercise their mathematical gifts as well as perform as good researchers, engineers, mathematicians, scientists, etc.

I really can’t go along with dumping Christendom in with the other world religions and term them equal. Jesus Christ will return in triumph over all the armies and other religions of the world. No sense in sugar coating that, to mislead people. Eternal souls are at stake.

God loves you,
Don
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Good thing Noah understood enough math to build the ark.
 
The post-modernist recognises that science is merely one narrative among many. The science of the past (alchemy, etc.) is dispensed with today. Why should not the scientific fables of this modern age (atoms, relativity, etc.) not similarly be simply viewed simply as a myth, or a cultural artefact?

I see no reason to reject the “language-game” of science. As a mytho-poetic form, it may produce something of interesting or even beautiful.

And there is no problem for the post-modernist if the conclusions or premises of the scientific narrative should ‘conflict’ with those the Biblical narrative. Both are essentially meta-phorical, and operate within internally consistent, autoarkic ‘truth’ systems (i.e. language systems).

The idea of a conflict between religion and science is a misguided as calling the difference in words in different languages a ‘conflict’.
 
Qoeleth said:
The post-modernist recognises that science is merely one narrative among many. The science of the past (alchemy, etc.) is dispensed with today. Why should not the scientific fables of this modern age (atoms, relativity, etc.) not similarly be simply viewed simply as a myth, or a cultural artefact?

I see no reason to reject the “language-game” of science. As a mytho-poetic form, it may produce something of interesting or even beautiful.

And there is no problem for the post-modernist if the conclusions or premises of the scientific narrative should ‘conflict’ with those the Biblical narrative. Both are essentially meta-phorical, and operate within internally consistent, autoarkic ‘truth’ systems (i.e. language systems).

The idea of a conflict between religion and science is a misguided as calling the difference in words in different languages a ‘conflict’.
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Why many historians no longer see alchemy as an occult practice

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-historians-longer-alchemy-occult.html
 
buffalo said:
Several models have been tested and deemed seaworthy.
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Really? Which full-size models made with pre-historic tools have been shown to withstand North-Atlantic storms? If there was indeed a global flood (and we know there was never enough water for that), it would have to have withstood the waves produced by winds blowing on a global fetch.
 
StAnastasia said:
Really? Which full-size models made with pre-historic tools have been shown to withstand North-Atlantic storms? If there was indeed a global flood (and we know there was never enough water for that), it would have to have withstood the waves produced by winds blowing on a global fetch.
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Pfft, yet more silly, post-modernist nonsense -

Who says there were waves and storms? Perhaps God just commanded the sea to be still or he granted supernatural strength and buoyancy to the timbers of the Ark.

It is rather disappointing to see that even fellow Catholics have fallen into the same trap of ‘scientism’ - which is yet another insidious manifestation of Satanic power in our society.

St Anastasia, as a Catholic you should know better - with God anything and everything is possible… 😉
 
razredge said:
Pfft, yet more silly, post-modernist nonsense - Who says there were waves and storms? Perhaps God just commanded the sea to be still or he granted supernatural strength and buoyancy to the timbers of the Ark. It is rather disappointing to see that even fellow Catholics have fallen into the same trap of ‘scientism’ - which is yet another insidious manifestation of Satanic power in our society. St Anastasia, as a Catholic you should know better - with God anything and everything is possible… 😉
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razredge, it would also be possible for God to have simply lifted all the animals to be saved above the waters in situ, placing them in a state of suspended animation and immunity to gravity. That would actually explain more economically why all the marsupials were let down on the Australian landmass, rather than having to invent the geologically risible “galloping continental drift” necessary to account for different post-flood continents now having different animals.
 
StAnastasia said:
razredge, it would also be possible for God to have simply lifted all the animals to be saved above the waters in situ, placing them in a state of suspended animation and immunity to gravity. That would actually explain more economically why all the marsupials were let down on the Australian landmass, rather than having to invent the geologically risible “galloping continental drift” necessary to account for different post-flood continents now having different animals.
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Yes of course, I was being sarcastic with that post - you know me, I don’t actually believe that.

The unfalsifiability of such appeals to divine intervention make it pretty much impossible to argue with people intent on holding their position in these matters, regardless of the evidence you throw at them.
 
PerfectTiming said:
I’ve been a member of the Christian community on another site for ages now and some of their opinions on science have been increasingly worrying me. They seem to believe science to be this vicious evil and that all science is lies from the Devil, etc. This seems to come from a variety of churches, since there’s no predominant denomination among the community. Without any bias, and with no offence intended to those who do this, I have noticed many of them are home-schooled (how relevant this is is obviously debatable).

Maybe this is just because I’m a scientist by nature but surely teaching children this level of complete enmity and disregard for science is unhealthy and detrimental to them. I’ve heard people talk about how scientists are stupid and it’s all ridiculous. I’m all for teaching children a healthy skepticism and there are aspects of mainstream scientific opinion I am very skeptical about myself but there are also incredibly important teachings that science gives us.

To me it seems wrong for parents or pastors or whoever to be teaching children this but I’m curious to see what other people think.
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Well I’ve been a member of the Christian Community for all my life now, in Churches of different denominations, Bible studies, discussions, and lots of online sites and real life situations…and I’ve never heard a Christian say anything about “rejecting science altogether”. I’ve not heard a Christian say anything that suggested he rejected science at all.

I’ve also never heard that science is “vicious”, “evil”, or a lie of the devil. Nor have I ever met a Christian who teaches their children “enmity” or even “disregard” toward science.

What Church is teaching this kind of stuff?
 
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