Cilice?

[Monica4316]

My own disposition is to strongly agree with you, Shin. That’s what I would naturally desire because I yearn for the spirit of sacrifice both in myself to a saintly extent, and throughout the Catholic Church in general.

Yet due caution is valuable, however much I might want to throw it aside.

In the Medieval Ages, corporal mortification was probably a lot more common than it is today among religious orders. I don’t think it was ever common among the laity, though, except perhaps during the Early Church era.

St. Francis de Sales wrote the “Introduction to the Devout Life” for ordinary Catholics. He has pages on fasting, and he recommends that all Catholics practice fasting on a few days beyond what the Church requires. He recommends abstinence on Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays, following the example of the Early Christians. He only includes one brief paragraph about the discipline, hairshirts and the like. His remarks on fasting are very intriguing, focused on people making their duties in life their fast more than going without food. He focuses on balance, recommends trying to change our heart attitudes as a better alternative to going without food in a number of cases, and he provides many practical words of caution.

His paragraph on the more severe corporal disciplines does not indicate that they should be generally practiced, unless on certain rare days. Here’s what he says about these disciplines.

“The discipline has a surprising effect in rousing the taste for devotion, if used moderately. The body is greatly subdued by the use of the hair shirt, but it is not fit for ordinary people, married persons, those who are delicate, or who have to bear considerable fatigue. On certain days of special penitence it may be used, subject to the counsel of a judicious Confessor.”

~St. Francis de Sales.

He mentions that in the case of many people, it is not wise that they practice such severe disciplines.

However, I think he has specific, practical reasons for singling out these groups. His reason for singling out “ordinary people” may indeed refer to what I was saying about making all sacrifices for love. I know that I couldn’t offer these severe mortifications with willingness and love at present, so they wouldn’t likely benefit me. The one who offers such mortifications must have a very great love. Perhaps that is what St. Francis de Sales is talking about here.

When he singles out married persons, the delicate or those who have very fatiguing occupations, it seems clear that he singles them out because their state in life or their condition makes such mortifications inadvisable.

The mortification itself, to him, is good, but it would need to be practiced with strong and willing love (not something most ordinary Catholics can do) and should not be practiced by people who cannot handle it or in which it would interfere with their duties.

I agree:thumbsup: I think it has to do with the amount of love as well.

Francis’ statement certainly does urge caution, and he urges that when such disciplines are used, for many people they should only be used on certain days of penitence. In view of his caution, it seems to me most wise that many Catholics here urge caution strongly as well.

Myself, I would love to just plunge on ahead and have the majority of Catholics practicing such austerities, and everyone doing it with a passionate love to match the severity of their discipline, but I think that is me being young and reckless. My spiritual director has forbidden some of my own plans for mortification before for that reason. And another time I tried a difficult mortification and wasn’t expecting it to be so hard, so I gave up very quickly and made it easier for myself. I saw it as very important to only offer God those sacrifices I can willingly offer Him for love of Him, and I couldn’t give so much that time, willingly. I still see it that way. I believe St. Francis that most “ordinary Catholics” should not undergo these severe penances, except perhaps on special days of penance like Good Friday or Holy Thursday. Yet I still aspire to them and believe that through seeking God and growing in His love, He will one day give me them.

I strongly agree with this. There should be encouragement as well as warnings. Such mortifications should not be seen as unreachable or undesirable. They should be a goal for many people, I believe, for they are a wonderful means of uniting oneself to God.

I believe this is especially true for religious orders. I would personally love to see the religious orders swept with a return to the old disciplines and sacrifices.

I think I see it similarly. I think it makes sense to only do mortification if you do it out of love… one time after I read about the Saints, for some reason I really wanted to practice mortifications at that time but since I didn’t have a spiritual director I didn’t pursue it. I think it’s important to have a SD because you never know if your motive is pure enough. I think my motive had pride mixed in with love for God, and wasnt perfect. I don’t think I’d do any severe penances without a true motive, which would be indicated by a spiritual director. I don’t think I’d know my heart well enough to judge my own motive. We can’t always tell…

I was kind of wondering, if a person desires holiness, how do you tell if that’s for love of God and not out of pride? what if a person desires holiness in order to love God perfectly?

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

My dear friend

The toughest mortification is to do a lot of little continual mortifications. Even tougher than big ones.

God bless you:thumbsup:

John

very true.

The Early Church era is the only time I know of in which severe mortifications like hair shirts and the discipline were common among the laity. Though in the Medieval Ages, these remained common among many religious orders.

I wonder if perhaps now is a time where such penances should become common among the laity once again, as they were during the Early Church’s deep fervor. Our age is more degraded and wicked than any since the Roman Empire. The centuries have become increasingly wicked since the Reformation first shattered Christendom.

Ordinary Catholics (decidedly including me) are probably not ready for such mortifications. St. Francis de Sales makes a very good point. Highly passionate love must preceed and inspire such rigorous penances. These sacrifices cannot be properly made without great love, as St. Paul warns.

While I would love to see ordinary Catholics all over the world taking up this practice through love, even as in the days of the Early Church, I believe the way to reach such a state is St. Therese of Lisieux’s Little Way. Small mortifications offered with love lead to deepened love that can willingly offer greater mortifications. This in turn leads to still deeper and deeper love.

The religious orders especially, more than anyone else, should lead the charge in envigorating this spirit of sacrifice. Spiritual directors also should be open to these possibilities.

The way to spreading these mortifications is not to simply start wearing a hair shirt and urging others to do likewise. That approach doesn’t take into account the differences between people’s spiritual conditions. As we are all agreed, the guidance of a spiritual director is a must in these circumstances.

What I think we should be doing is praying and seeking to inspire other souls with deeper love for God, and urging them to take on St. Therese of Lisieux’s Little Way. This pathway, when trod to its conclusion, can often lead to great, great love and correspondingly vast mortifications undertaken gladly for love, as the saints did.

Here’s a quote from Wikipedia about St. Therese, perhaps describing the result of the passionate love her Little Way created in her own soul?

In the end, she offered herself up as a victim holocaust to God, enduring ferocious torments through tuberculosis before death.

This ardor was at least partly the result, I think, of her faithful practice of the Little Way.

I’m not sure I’m right in this post, but I propose these ideas.

I love St Therese and her Little Way… I never thought of it in this way, but I think it makes sense: that the Little Way would lead to true holiness and great love for God. St Therese is a great example of this… I also think the Little Way might be so effective because it protects against pride, and the person learns to do little things well and gets to the big things only when they’re spiritually ready it’s also interesting to me that St Therese did practice corporal mortification, and was wiling to endure great suffering for God. We can see that for her it was definitely based on love.

 

[Ridgerunner]

very true.

I love St Therese and her Little Way… I never thought of it in this way, but I think it makes sense: that the Little Way would lead to true holiness and great love for God. St Therese is a great example of this… I also think the Little Way might be so effective because it protects against pride, and the person learns to do little things well and gets to the big things only when they’re spiritually ready it’s also interesting to me that St Therese did practice corporal mortification, and was wiling to endure great suffering for God. We can see that for her it was definitely based on love.

I agree with you entirely.

But I will add that I have seen photos of cilices. My son has actually held one in his hand, though he was not invited to take up the practice because he was not, at that point or since, been moved to ask to join Opus Dei. From his viewpoint and mine, a cilice looks like it would be mildly irritating, but not much more.

I have nothing against that, so long as a person’s motivations are proper. I will, however, add that mortifications can come in many forms. It’s not so much the thing itself as it is the power of will and love it takes to do it. This will sound silly, but Lent before last I gave up CAF! I would a LOT rather have worn a cilice. There are some irritating things my wife sometimes does (and I’m sure I irritate her more) and it can really take some doing to just hold my tongue and live with it. A cilice would be easier. I much prefer to go to Mass in a neighboring town. The church is prettier and the music is better and the songs can usually be sung if one is not a first tenor. So, it’s hard to go to my own. I’ll admit, we go to the more pleasant one often, but go to our own as a mortification. A small thing, I’ll grant.

Sometimes it would be easier to wear a cilice than to be pleasant (even helpful) to a co-worker one just can’t stand. Sometimes just doing one’s job and forcing oneself to do it well is a mortification that I don’t think a hairshirt could quite equal. Oh, and eagerly eating a big serving of someone’s ghastly jello salad and complimenting her on it. Not a big thing, but it’s something.

And (I’m embarrassed to admit) I would a lot rather wear a hairshirt and a cilice simultaneously for a day than to go to confession after a protracted absence.

Oh yes, and when, in the dead of winter and dark of night my wife mentions that she left something she needs in the car. Well, it isn’t much, but a few hours of cilice can’t be a worse mortification than jumping out of my chair, pretending to be sprightly, and saying “oh, I’ll get it. I need to see whether it has cleared up out there anyway.” Not that big a physical mortification, but the cold does bite if one goes out in shirtsleeves, particularly if one can’t find the desired object right away. And yes, that pinging when the door is standing open can be incredibly irritating when one is looking for an object on the floor and snow is sifting down the back of one’s collar to the bargain, and the dog sticks his wet head in between one’s legs to see what the object of interest could be.

Oh, and listening to someone else’s troubles can really be trying, and being sympathetic can too.

So, yes, I agree totally with Monica. But I don’t criticize those who wear cilices either.

 

[Monica4316]

I agree with you entirely.

But I will add that I have seen photos of cilices. My son has actually held one in his hand, though he was not invited to take up the practice because he was not, at that point or since, been moved to ask to join Opus Dei. From his viewpoint and mine, a cilice looks like it would be mildly irritating, but not much more.

I have nothing against that, so long as a person’s motivations are proper. I will, however, add that mortifications can come in many forms. It’s not so much the thing itself as it is the power of will and love it takes to do it. This will sound silly, but Lent before last I gave up CAF! I would a LOT rather have worn a cilice. There are some irritating things my wife sometimes does (and I’m sure I irritate her more) and it can really take some doing to just hold my tongue and live with it. A cilice would be easier. I much prefer to go to Mass in a neighboring town. The church is prettier and the music is better and the songs can usually be sung if one is not a first tenor. So, it’s hard to go to my own. I’ll admit, we go to the more pleasant one often, but go to our own as a mortification. A small thing, I’ll grant.

Sometimes it would be easier to wear a cilice than to be pleasant (even helpful) to a co-worker one just can’t stand. Sometimes just doing one’s job and forcing oneself to do it well is a mortification that I don’t think a hairshirt could quite equal. Oh, and eagerly eating a big serving of someone’s ghastly jello salad and complimenting her on it. Not a big thing, but it’s something.

And (I’m embarrassed to admit) I would a lot rather wear a hairshirt and a cilice simultaneously for a day than to go to confession after a protracted absence.

Oh yes, and when, in the dead of winter and dark of night my wife mentions that she left something she needs in the car. Well, it isn’t much, but a few hours of cilice can’t be a worse mortification than jumping out of my chair, pretending to be sprightly, and saying “oh, I’ll get it. I need to see whether it has cleared up out there anyway.” Not that big a physical mortification, but the cold does bite if one goes out in shirtsleeves, particularly if one can’t find the desired object right away. And yes, that pinging when the door is standing open can be incredibly irritating when one is looking for an object on the floor and snow is sifting down the back of one’s collar to the bargain, and the dog sticks his wet head in between one’s legs to see what the object of interest could be.

Oh, and listening to someone else’s troubles can really be trying, and being sympathetic can too.

So, yes, I agree totally with Monica. But I don’t criticize those who wear cilices either.

haha I know what you mean!!! I can also think of so many things that are worse mortifications for me than wearing a cilice maybe the difference is that those things, we can’t avoid, whereas wearing a cilice or a hairshirt, or using the discipline, are voluntary.

I’m trying to figure out…how do you know if you take on mortifications for love of God? I’m not talking about something severe, like what I listed. But more like fasting…

 

[Monica4316]

I just thought of something… maybe even if a suffering isn’t voluntary, we can make it voluntary by choosing it for the love of Christ… so we’re not just enduring our sufferings in life, but embracing our cross for Him

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Cilices should be made meaner .

 

[Bookcat]

It is a valid form of bodily mortification.

Though it would be recommended that one have spiritual direction in this regard.

Here is a very good article for you:

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

 

[Monica4316]

Cilices should be made meaner .

hahaha

I always thought that they’re painful, because don’t they have metal spikes? I’m not sure what real cilices are like. Maybe they only cause some discomfort.

By the way… I’ve been reading about St Rose of Lima… who I think is a great example of someone who undertood severe penances for love of God alone.

"Virgin, patroness of America, born at Lima, Peru 20 April, 1586; died there 30 August, 1617.

At her confirmation in 1597, she took the name of Rose, because, when an infant, her face had been seen transformed by a mystical rose. As a child she was remarkable for a great reverence, and pronounced love, for all things relating to God. This so took possession of her that thenceforth her life was given up to prayer and mortification. She had an intense devotion to the Infant Jesus and His Blessed Mother, before whose altar she spent hours. She was scrupulously obedient and of untiring industry, making rapid progress by earnest attention to her parents’ instruction, to her studies, and to her domestic work, especially with her needle.

After reading of St. Catherine she determined to take that saint as her model. She began by fasting three times a week, adding secret severe penances, and when her vanity was assailed, cutting off her beautiful hair, wearing coarse clothing, and roughening her hands with toil. All this time she had to struggle against the objections of her friends, the ridicule of her family, and the censure of her parents. Many hours were spent before the Blessed Sacrament, which she received daily.

Finally she determined to take a vow of virginity, and inspired by supernatural love, adopted extraordinary means to fulfill it. At the outset she had to combat the opposition of her parents, who wished her to marry. For ten years the struggle continued before she won, by patience and prayer, their consent to continue her mission.

At the same time great temptations assailed her purity, faith, and constance, causing her excruciating agony of mind and desolation of spirit, urging her to more frequent mortifications; but daily, also, Our Lord manifested Himself, fortifying her with the knowledge of His presence and consoling her mind with evidence of His Divine love. Fasting daily was soon followed by perpetual abstinence from meat, and that, in turn, by use of only the coarsest food and just sufficient to support life.

Her days were filled with acts of charity and industry, her exquisite lace and embroidery helping to support her home, while her nights were devoted to prayer and penance. When her work permitted, she retired to a little grotto which she had built, with her brother’s aid, in their small garden, and there passed her nights in solitude and prayer. Overcoming the opposition of her parents, and with the consent of her confessor, she was allowed later to become practically a recluse in this cell, save for her visits to the Blessed Sacrament.

In her twentieth year she received the habit of St. Dominic. Thereafter she redoubled the severity and variety of her penances to a heroic degree, wearing constantly a metal spiked crown, concealed by roses, and an iron chain about her waist. Days passed without food, save a draught of gall mixed with bitter herbs. When she could no longer stand, she sought repose on a bed constructed by herself, of broken glass, stone, potsherds, and thorns. She admitted that the thought of lying down on it made her tremble with dread. Fourteen years this martyrdom of her body continued without relaxation, but not without consolation. Our Lord revealed Himself to her frequently, flooding her soul with such inexpressible peace and joy as to leave her in ecstasy for hours. At these times she offered to Him all her mortifications and penances in expiation for offences against His Divine Majesty, for the idolatry of her country, for the conversion of sinners, and for the souls in Purgatory.

Many miracles followed her death. She was beatified by Clement IX, in 1667, and canonized in 1671 by Clement X, the first American to be so honoured. Her feast is celebrated 30 August. She is represented wearing a crown of roses."

wow!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I find this account very interesting, Monica.

First of all, it is simply a fabulous account of a great woman of God.

Second, there are elements of this that we can learn from.

The account starts with her practicing the following.

“She had an intense devotion to the Infant Jesus and His Blessed Mother, before whose altar she spent hours. She was scrupulously obedient and of untiring industry, making rapid progress by earnest attention to her parents’ instruction, to her studies, and to her domestic work, especially with her needle.”

She was practicing St. Therese’s Little Way before St. Therese lived. She performed her work and daily duties as her first mortifications, even when she did not want to. This proved a pathway for her to greater mortifications.

Indeed, as we read through the account of her life, her mortifications become more strenuous over time.

“She began by fasting three times a week . . . Fasting daily was soon followed by perpetual abstinence from meat, and that, in turn, by use of only the coarsest food and just sufficient to support life.”

She didn’t exactly start small with the fasting, but she certainly started a lot smaller than she ended up. A smaller mortification undertaken for love led to deeper love, which led in turn to a greater mortification, which in turn led to greater love, and so on.