Circular NFP reasoning

[AlanFromWichita]

martino:

Onan was struck dead for his evil deed! Not for not having a child!

But his evil deed was refusing to have a child! Or are we talking about a different Onan?

Here’s the story I’m talking about:
Genesis 38:6-10:

Judah got a wife named Tamar for his first-born, Er. But Er, Judah’s first-born, greatly offended the LORD; so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, “Unite with your brother’s widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother’s line.” Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother’s widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

If Onan was trying to have relations with Tamar for the purpose of having the unitive function of it without the procreative, then I might agree with you. This story even tells us what he’s thinking, and why he did it. It was not to have gratuitous sex without the consequences; it was to avoid having children at all! If Onan had flatly refused to be “united” with Tamar and abstained, would he have not been guilty of the same offense?

Alan

 

[CatholicMatthew]

AlanFromWichita:

My belief is that if it was his job, ordained by God, to have a child, then he would have risked being struck dead using any form of ABC or NFP.

Well, it doesn’t talk anywhere at this time about any ordination of this custom by God. Second, Remember to go to Verse 26…Judah and Shelah were guilty of violating the custom and they were not struck dead.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Out of curiosity, where does God demand abstinence in marriage?

I don’t know if you are married or not. However, when my wife tells me she has a headache, abstinence is not only a desire of my wife (regardless of fertility cycles), but a demand of God, lest I disregard the unitive aspect of marriage and rape my wife, whether she feels like having sex or not. That’s just one example where God would demand my abstinence.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

One reason I say this is I have been accused as being “irresponsible”, when I was indeed trying my best to be responsible, so I guess I have trouble with the term “responsible parent”,

I use the term “responsible parent” in the sense that Pope Paul VI describes it in *Humanae Vitae. *Do you have trouble with the sense in which Paul VI uses the term?

 

[char34]

itsjustdave1988:

I don’t know if you are married or not. However, when my wife tells me she has a headache, abstinence is not only a desire of my wife (regardless of fertility cycles), but a demand of God, lest I disregard the unitive aspect of marriage and rape my wife, whether she feels like having sex or not. That’s just one example where God would demand my abstinence.

Yes, I am married. Common sense should tell us we cannot “force” our spouse if they are not feeling well. On the other hand, spouses can be in the wrong to continually make excuses to avoid relations. Being available to one’s spouse IS specifically stated (or demanded) in the bible, abstinence in marriage is not.

Fortunately, it is rare either of us are not “in the mood”, headache or not!

 

[char34]

itsjustdave1988:

I use the term “responsible parent” in the sense that Pope Paul VI describes it in *Humanae Vitae. *Do you have trouble with the sense in which Paul VI uses the term?

My point is, responsible parenting does not necessarily mean couples have the obligation to use NFP, it simply means doing our best with how many children God gives us. Fr. Hogan from ewtn stated it is NEVER sinful to choose leave our family planning up to God, yet it can be sinful to deliberately trying to have children when we are seriously struggling, or avoiding children without at least just reasons to do so.

Leaving it up to God is just that, neither desperately trying or avoiding conception. While we practice NFP, I certainly admire those who choose not to.

I now understand what you mean by God demanding abstinence, I thought you meant God demanded couples abstain for the family planning purposes which doesn’t seem to be the case, so what I wrote might seem irrelevant to you!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

CatholicMatthew:

Well, it doesn’t talk anywhere at this time about any ordination of this custom by God. Second, Remember to go to Verse 26…Judah and Shelah were guilty of violating the custom and they were not struck dead.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

Wow. This whole story is pretty messed up. I never read it before except for the small part that has been pointed out to me. Not being a scholar, I don’t know the customs or which are more important than others, but in this case it seemed like a different sin than Onan. Onan was specifically told to conceive and didn’t. Judah impregnated his daughter-in-law whom he thought a harlot? Ugh.

That brings up another point. My kids were taught by their religion teachers at Kapaun (high school) that Genesis and Revelation are to be interpreted figuratively. I brought that up once before on this board and I think someone confirmed the part about Genesis but disagreed about Revelation. How can we be so specific about one particular aspect of a major sinful situation in a figurative book that we use it to justify a doctrine of the “intrinsic evil” of withdrawal. I don’t know if I can effectively argue this point because I feel like I must be talking a whole different language. I can’t see how I can be the only one who doesn’t consider the Onan story as reasonably valid evidence against withdrawal per se. I might give up arguing but there still seems to be a missing link here somewhere.

Alan

P.S. Matthew, how was the conference? Was it as great as I thought it would be? I actually enjoyed Holy Savior very much – I ended up playing all three Masses, 8, 11 and 5pm. Fr. Weldon said them.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

char34:

My point is, responsible parenting does not necessarily mean couples have the obligation to use NFP

Not necessarily under all conditions. However, under some conditions, responsible parenting may indeed mean NFP or even total abstinence.

… I thought you meant God demanded couples abstain for the family planning purposes

I don’t believe God demands we abstain for family planning in all circumstances. But under some circumstances, abstinence may be precisely what God demands.

For a hypothetical example, let’s say my wife suffers from bi-polar disorder, also called manic-depressive illness. Let’s say this illness is particularly disabling in this instance, essentially keeping her from being able to care for herself, let alone additional children. Post-partum depression may compound the illness, making her even more suicidal. I believe under this condition, responsible parenting may indeed demand NFP or even total abstinence. Scripture tells us, “Husbands, love your wives.” Deciding what is most loving requires an understanding of the circumstances, and a prayerful contemplation of the effects of our actions.

According to Pope Paul VI:

the exercise of responsible parenthood requires that husband and wife, keeping a right order of priorities, recognize their own duties toward God, themselves, their families and human society. (HV, 10)

Having 15 or more children may very well be an exercise of responsible parenting. But not for every circumstance.

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time. (ibid)

 

[char34]

I would find it hard to believe that the couple in the circumstance you described would actually deliberately plan to have more children to begin with,but they would not be sinning if they had another child. Of course that is not possible if they choose abstinence, it would certainly possible if they choose NFP.

I recently read about a couple who decided after much prayer to remain open to life despite a life threatening illness, I would consider that heroic rather than irresponsible. You see, we cannot judge another’s family size, big or small, it is not up to us to decide certain people should have never been born. If God wants another child to exist, He will find a way to make it happen!