Clapping during the Gloria?

[margarete]

I am having that frustrated feeling after our son’s confirmation at Sat., 2/11, afternoon Mass. There was so much clapping, the band played so loudly (during everything- I couldn’t hear the bishop during the laying on of hands and the anointing,) with background music during the Eucharistic prayers ( there was a point where they had us-I did not participate-singing out responses during the Eucharistic prayer,) yet we never said the," Lord, I am not worthy to receive you…" It was just a loud, noisy, raucous Mass.
I know that there are some who get something out of this kind of Mass, but I really don’t.
Is there somewhere that is official that states what a Mass should be like, reverence-wise?
At Halloween, our parish decorated and had springing spiders hanging off of the altar.
I really need some guidance for what is appropriate at Mass, with all the whys spelled out. I want make sure I am raising my sons right. If anyone is aware of a reference book I could pick up, please let me know.
God Bless,
Margarete

 

[MrS]

Which parish/bishop is this… that I need to avoid.

We need some of this kind of silliness… so we can truly appreciate the reverence when we have it. It is harder to recognize the good and proper without that unfortunate dose of bad and improper.

 

[netmilsmom]

margarete:

 At Halloween, our parish decorated and had springing spiders hanging off of the altar.

Margarete

OH MY!
What ever happened to the focus of Halloween being the day before “All Saints Day”?

All Hallows Eve = The day before All Saint’s Day

Take heart Margarete, I escaped a parish where Mardi Gras was celebrated at Religious Formation instead of talking at all about Ash Wednesday.
There are good parishes out there, someone here might help you find one.

 

[mpeacock]

To you , Margarete, yes, there are sourcebooks about this kind (and many other ) of thing. One of the best and most accessable is SOURCEBOOK for Sundays and Seasons published by Liturgy Training Publications.
I too am sick of the lack of dignity in the musical end of the Mass. Perhaps a group of like-minded folks could somehow make it clear to the Music Directors of our parishes that they are becoming offensive.
Every time I bring it up alone ,he mocks me and then makes me the scapegoat thru the rest of choir practice.
I know that there are more of us but no one has the nerve to speak up.

 

[Andrewcarey]

Never had that in our Church. But in my cousin’s old Church (St. Matthew in Saginaw county) did that and I was like “Why in the heck are they doing that?” I’m not going into that Church until they change something for Gloria and the music but I’m glad they didn’t had any guitars… lucky for us.

 

[TOMFULLREE]

Clapping during the Gloria? Ha! That’s nothing! At my parish the choir snaps their fingers along with the Gloria and expectedly looks at the congregation to join in. So far, only a small handful of people comply and snap along. It looks and sounds silly. Most people just look embarrassed.

 

[estesbob]

Never had that in our Church. But in my cousin’s old Church (St. Matthew in Saginaw county) did that and I was like “Why in the heck are they doing that?” I’m not going into that Church until they change something for Gloria and the music but I’m glad they didn’t had any guitars… lucky for us.

The clapping version is done at our “guitar mass”. The clapping doeant bother me neraly as much as the Guitar guy stands at the Ambo to lead th singing.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

People don’t realize that clapping has an actual liturical function. So, technically clapping should only be done at the proper litugical time which is at the acknowledgement of the election of the new Bishop after the reading of he Bull.

Other situations I can think of that seem traditional (perhaps to the point of being customs) even though I don’t know if they’re called for are affirmations of new situations such as those who have just been received into the Church or those who have just been married.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

ooops… I forgot… St Stans down in St Louis, Mo, hired their own pastor:banghead:

Well, like you said, non-Catholics can hire and fire their pastor.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

And what about the people who DO like this form of worship? They should just be disregarded because you want that mass time?

I think this strikes to the heart of the conflict because in this case I really see two different questions at play:

1. Should there be mutual concessions made to allow legitimate liturgical diversity?
2. Is clapping during the Gloria legitimate liturgical diversity?

I don’t think anyone here would say no to question 1. Latin or vernacular, chant or polyphony or hymnody or a blend, said or sung Mass, ad orientem or versus populum, communion standing or at the rail or both. All of these issues, even if one might be strongly opposed to a certain practice, are legitimate by law, even those that lack foundation in Latin Catholic practice for at least the last 500 years (versus populum especially having no foundation in any rite whatsoever).

Is this new wave of ‘happy-clappy’ worship part of that set of legitimate options, though? That’s the real question. Not only did it come into Catholic worship through a wholly manufactured Catholic charismatic movement (which was based on Protestant worship) or straight from the Protestant churches, thus not having grown organically out of an existing Catholic culture, but it actually contradicts fundamental and time-honored liturgical principles such as that liturgical music is meant to foster “sober inebriation,” not emotionalism, ecstatic worship, or entertainment. It simply doesn’t fit.

Unfortunately, many people don’t recognize this because a bunch of (possibly well-intentioned) ignoramuses decided at the creation of the new rite and for the next few decades that Catholic teaching and tradition were poor sources for liturgical practice and that we should just do whatever we feel like. Once they had actually promoted their lame-brained practices enough that they were taken up by a significant portion of the population, it no longer mattered that they were illegitimate creations because they could now be defended as “another style of worship.” If we were to be precise, we would term this “poorly thought out” or “poorly executed liturgy.”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’m getting to the point where I’ve had enough.

The morning at our earliest Mass (by far the most reverent Mass at our parish) and handful of screw-ups started to clap during the Gloria! I have to admit that this made me angry!

“Glory clap clap glory to God, clap clap, glory to God in the higest, clap clap…”

Does anyone else have this sorta garbage going on in their parishes? Give it a month and it will become “part of the Mass” and we’ll never get ride of it! I can just imagine the reception I would receive if I brought this to the attention of our “administrator pro-tem.”

ARGH! I am so darned angry about this!

It is not appropriate to the liturgical action, because it interrupts the words being said. Which are the words of a hymn of praise:​

St. Luke 2:

2:8 et pastores erant in regione eadem vigilantes et
custodientes vigilias noctis supra gregem suum
2:9 et ecce angelus Domini stetit iuxta illos et claritas Dei
circumfulsit illos et timuerunt timore magno
2:10 et dixit illis angelus nolite timere ecce enim evangelizo
vobis gaudium magnum quod erit omni populo
2:11 quia natus est vobis hodie salvator qui est Christus
Dominus in civitate David
2:12 et hoc vobis signum invenietis infantem pannis involutum et
positum in praesepio
2:13 et subito facta est cum angelo multitudo militiae caelestis
laudantium Deum et dicentium
2:14 gloria in altissimis Deo et in terra pax in hominibus bonae
voluntatis
2:15 et factum est ut discesserunt ab eis angeli in caelum
pastores loquebantur ad invicem transeamus usque Bethleem et
videamus hoc verbum quod factum est quod fecit Dominus et
ostendit nobis
2:16 et venerunt festinantes et invenerunt Mariam et Ioseph et
infantem positum in praesepio
2:17 videntes autem cognoverunt de verbo quod dictum erat illis
de puero hoc
2:18 et omnes qui audierunt mirati sunt et de his quae dicta
erant a pastoribus ad ipsos
2:19 Maria autem conservabat omnia verba haec conferens in corde
suo

theworld.com/obi/Religion/Vulgate/Luke.txt

If people wish to clap, they should go elsewhere.

The problem with it is, that if behaviour more appropriate to our life outside the liturgy is imported into it on no very clear principle, the distinctive character of the liturgy as an act of Christian worship will be lost, & the liturgy will seem to be no more significant than any other permissible form of behaviour, such as watching TV or eating sweets.

It is a terrible idea. it opens the way to the complete loss of our sense of the “otherness” of God, the God Who is to be approached with holy awe & reverence. So although God is also intimately concerned in every instant of the lives of each one of us, it is illegitimate to reason from the appropriateness of eating sweets or clapping hands or watching the box outside the Liturgy, to the appropriateness of doing these things during it. Nobody would suggest that eating sweets or sleeping, or drinking beer, is appropriate during a wedding Mass; so why is it appropriate to clap hands during the Sunday Liturgy, which is a Commemoration both of the Passion & of the Resurrection ?

Besides, as the public worship of the entire Church on earth, the Liturgy is supposed to be offered to God in certain ways rather than in others; which is why there are rules for it - otherwise it risks becoming an anarchic free-for-all, in which people “do what is right in their own eyes” - always a bad thing in the Bible. But “God is not a god of confusion”.

This failure to understand the character of the Liturgy only leads to trivialisation of it - I blame the assumption that the Liturgy is “our” action: that is part of the truth, but, it is ours, only because it is primarily, & in every way, God’s. It is an enormous privilege to share in the Liturgy, for by so doing, mortal, sinful men are made sharers in the Priestly activity of Christ. ##

 

[paramedicgirl]

This is an old thread. Too bad the clapping to the Gloria didn’t disappear along with this thread. Now if we could only make that happen.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

How is letting everyone in the church be pleased with the way they worship not cooperating?

In fact, I feel that if everyone of us were allowed to worship in our own individual way, these types of innovations would stop. People would go to the conservative mass and the other would die out. OR perhaps in this area, people want the clapping. You may feel that this is not appropriate, and I have no experience personally, but this may well be what goes on at a Charismatic Mass. That is fully approved by the Vatican.

What I am saying is if you are offered a conservative mass, even if that is only one of the masses at your parish, count your blessings. You could live in Detroit, Cleveland or many of the other Diocese where finding a mass without clapping and waving is a miracle of God.

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I have to admit that it’s only been about 25 years or so since I last regular attended charismatic masses… But my experience tells me that what’s been described isn’t charismatic. It might be someone’s idea of what a charismatic mass might be, but it’s not the product of a spirit indwelt congregation.

My experience is that Charismatic Congregations will try to do the sung parts of the mass in as worshipful a manner as possible. Clapping in Rythm will usually happen when songs are added during the Prayers of the People (the prayers will still be done as well as the Sacrament of Unction sometimes), the Offering of the Gifts and the Recessional and prayer services after the Mass.

Clapping is also common in Africa and is some other cultures, but what’s being described isn’t that. If it where, you would see something very close to 100% participation, and even AlterMan would have felt pretty natural about it.

I think the problem is when someone is trying to manufacture something instead of following the GIRM and allowing the cultural and spiritual needs of the congregation to dictate what , if any changes and modifications, should be made.

Otherwise, these are the quotes that I believe must hold:

*So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern. But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged. Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets’ control, since he is not the God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the holy ones,

So, (my) brothers, strive eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues, but everything must be done properly and in order.
1 Cor 14:26-33, 39-40 NAB*

Please see 1 Cor 12:1 - 13:13 concerning Gifts of the Spirit and the need for Agape.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZH.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZI.HTM
etext.virginia.edu/frames/bibleframe.html

And Galatians 5:19-23 concerning the difference between the Fruits of the Spirit and those of the Flesh.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P105.HTM
etext.virginia.edu/frames/bibleframe.html

This last one my be useful when looking at a congregation which claimes to be “charismatic”.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

It is not appropriate to the liturgical action, because it interrupts the words being said. Which are the words of a hymn of praise:​

St. Luke 2:

2:8 et pastores erant in regione eadem vigilantes et
custodientes vigilias noctis supra gregem suum
2:9 et ecce angelus Domini stetit iuxta illos et claritas Dei
circumfulsit illos et timuerunt timore magno
2:10 et dixit illis angelus nolite timere ecce enim evangelizo
vobis gaudium magnum quod erit omni populo
2:11 quia natus est vobis hodie salvator qui est Christus
Dominus in civitate David
2:12 et hoc vobis signum invenietis infantem pannis involutum et
positum in praesepio
2:13 et subito facta est cum angelo multitudo militiae caelestis
laudantium Deum et dicentium
2:14 gloria in altissimis Deo et in terra pax in hominibus bonae
voluntatis
2:15 et factum est ut discesserunt ab eis angeli in caelum
pastores loquebantur ad invicem transeamus usque Bethleem et
videamus hoc verbum quod factum est quod fecit Dominus et
ostendit nobis
2:16 et venerunt festinantes et invenerunt Mariam et Ioseph et
infantem positum in praesepio
2:17 videntes autem cognoverunt de verbo quod dictum erat illis
de puero hoc
2:18 et omnes qui audierunt mirati sunt et de his quae dicta
erant a pastoribus ad ipsos
2:19 Maria autem conservabat omnia verba haec conferens in corde
suo

theworld.com/obi/Religion/Vulgate/Luke.txt

If people wish to clap, they should go elsewhere.

The problem with it is, that if behaviour more appropriate to our life outside the liturgy is imported into it on no very clear principle, the distinctive character of the liturgy as an act of Christian worship will be lost, & the liturgy will seem to be no more significant than any other permissible form of behaviour, such as watching TV or eating sweets.

It is a terrible idea. it opens the way to the complete loss of our sense of the “otherness” of God, the God Who is to be approached with holy awe & reverence. So although God is also intimately concerned in every instant of the lives of each one of us, it is illegitimate to reason from the appropriateness of eating sweets or clapping hands or watching the box outside the Liturgy, to the appropriateness of doing these things during it. Nobody would suggest that eating sweets or sleeping, or drinking beer, is appropriate during a wedding Mass; so why is it appropriate to clap hands during the Sunday Liturgy, which is a Commemoration both of the Passion & of the Resurrection ?

Besides, as the public worship of the entire Church on earth, the Liturgy is supposed to be offered to God in certain ways rather than in others; which is why there are rules for it - otherwise it risks becoming an anarchic free-for-all, in which people “do what is right in their own eyes” - always a bad thing in the Bible. But “God is not a god of confusion”.

This failure to understand the character of the Liturgy only leads to trivialisation of it - I blame the assumption that the Liturgy is “our” action: that is part of the truth, but, it is ours, only because it is primarily, & in every way, God’s. It is an enormous privilege to share in the Liturgy, for by so doing, mortal, sinful men are made sharers in the Priestly activity of Christ. ##

Michael:

Well said, and the Magnificat is well quoted. I’ve been in Churches where we sang the hymn with some enthusiasm, sort of how I picture our Blessed Mother, or the first Myriam in the Book of Exodus, singing it. I can just imagine the Blessed Virgin’s relief being expressed in that peon of praise.

I think the problem is that we’ve forgotten that, although the Divine Liturgy has places where we are supposed to be enthusiastic, it’s not supposed to be manufactured, and it’s not supposed to be forced by clapping which takes so much concentration that much of the congreagation can’t participate in the Divine Liturgy itself.

I think this is the culmination of 40 years of dumbing down the Liturgy coupled with bad catechesis, so that most Catholics have forgotten that, although our Lord is present whenever 2 or 3 are gathered together in His Name, the Divine Liturgy is a Union with the Heavenly Liturgy (See St. John’s Apocalypse and Scott Hahn’s eloquent description) and with Jesus and the Apostles in the Upper Room (The meaning of the word translated as “Anamnesis” used by our Lord when hHe instituted the Eucharist). Because of the need to combat Protestant Heresies, we’ve lost much of that sense of Mystery and Awe the Early Church had (and the Eastern Church still has).

I hope I didn’t labor the point too much.

Good night.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[tamccrackine]

Ok, I know this is an old thread, but my parish recently tried to put a more solemn Gloria into the Mass and it was met with dead air. Seriously… we couldn’t find it in our music books and so we didn’t know how to sing it and it honestly sounded very strained. (not to mention it took nearly 10 minutes to sing). It was nice, don’t get me wrong, but it took alot of us by surprise.

We do the Gloria (clap, clap), Gloria (clap, clap) in excelsis Deo and then go on with the rest of the Gloria. I personally don’t mind it and it’s gotten my 4 and 6 yr old to participate more fully AND they’ve learned some Latin!

speaking for myself here… my last parish had two different Masses. The Saturday night Mass and Sunday morning. It was like day versus night. The Sat mass was HOOOOOORRRRIIIBBBLLLEEE. You could NOT get through it without cringing at the fact that the “choir” just ruined so much music and it was made worse by a pianist that thought she could play and sing and do both at the same time. Songs from my youth (that you would recognize by the first note and could STILL sing them anywhere) was so horribly ruined I wanted to just scream.

Before the newest musician took over, this lady had played at the Sunday Mass also. However, when the new lady took over the Sunday Mass, the music was uplifting. The music was lead by a guitarist that had a voice like an angel. (She could also play piano but her instrument of choice was the guitar) The music was done properly and she chose music out of the musicians book (all Catholic musicians get one so they all know the suggestions as to what to play for that day) that she knew most people would like to sing.

And to top it off, for myself, I learn through music. Although it’s a pathetic excuse, the former musician made it easy for me to convientently “skip” Mass because I just wasn’t getting anything out of it. Especially with her ability to run to the bathroom during the liturgy of the word and not be back in time for specific parts of the Mass.

So… bottom line… music is just a tool that God uses to reach some of us. I’ve learned soooo many Psalms thanks to the Responsorial Psalm being sung. I’ve learned other scripture because it’s been put to song.

 

[Melanie01]

I’m getting to the point where I’ve had enough.

The morning at our earliest Mass (by far the most reverent Mass at our parish) and handful of screw-ups started to clap during the Gloria! I have to admit that this made me angry!

“Glory clap clap glory to God, clap clap, glory to God in the higest, clap clap…”

Does anyone else have this sorta garbage going on in their parishes? Give it a month and it will become “part of the Mass” and we’ll never get ride of it! I can just imagine the reception I would receive if I brought this to the attention of our “administrator pro-tem.”

ARGH! I am so darned angry about this!

In these churches dont you call out Amen brother and Alleluia… find yourself a Catholic Church quickly and avoid these protestant halls

 

[fiat1122]

Whatever happened to reverence during Mass? This kind of thing needs to be reported to the bishop. Truely sad that it should come down to something like this.

It still exists in the Indult Tridentine Mass: contact the Ecclesia Dei Commision to find one near you.

 

[Eireann]

Never heard of it, this is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard of, if it ever happens I’ll definitely not be taking part, and will talk to the powers that be to have it stopped.

We don’t hold hands at the Our Father, and this clapping during the Gloria is not for me.

 

[plato3]

All peoples, clap your hands, cry to God with shouts of joy!
For the Lord,the Most High, we must fear, great king over
all the earth…Psalm 47

 

[Eireann]

All peoples, clap your hands, cry to God with shouts of joy!
For the Lord,the Most High, we must fear, great king over
all the earth…Psalm 47

There’s a time and place for everything :clapping: , shall we start clapping at the Consecration too :clapping: , next thing we’ll be all pirouetting up the isle, and bally dancing back to our seats.:clapping: