Clarification on leaving the Church

[OSN]

I am looking for clarification as stated, on where it is stated in regards to those catholics who leave the church. More to the point of, anything that reads that it is a sin for a Catholic to leave the Church, and a statement also that it is either mortal or a venial sin. I need documentation, and I cant seem to find it in my R.C.Catechism, if it is in there, a link or page reference would be helpful. Also, there seems to be a never ending debate on the matter… But what I find resentment with, and if I am wrong ( which I am sure in someones mind I will be , but what ever ) The Church says it is a sin for Catholics to miss holy days of obligation ( which includes Sunday or weekly mass { not daily } ) then double dips on it by making it a sin to leave the Church… (What I expect to hear in response, is that it isn’t the Church punishing or creating said rules, but the person making the choice to leave and or not go to Mass as obligated / required.- this type of response I completely disagree with if any are out there, I understand the position, I just flat out disagree with it I am not trying to convince anyone of my position nor wish for anyone to try to sway me to agreeing with this type of response. ) I just find it hard to believe that Jesus ever intended for his Love and relationship to be this type of catch 22 with the Roman Catholic Church. An maybe this type of thinking is some form of " progressivism " .

 

[OSN]

I really hope it isn’t, I am not out to try and change the Church any, I would just like to be able to go to mass freely with out the blade of the guillotine hanging over my head that forces me to go. I find the Church to be very oppressive , and this is as a Cradle Catholic. I am very Apathetic to the Mass, and have been for a long time. The rub is, I am faithful to the intentions I pray for, and do see the prayers answered. So I am in a constant flux between, appreciation and discontent maybe even some resentment in there. But having no real function in the Church personally in any aspect for too many reasons to get into, on top of everything I mentioned, I can relate to why Catholics leave the faith and don’t look back. But I guess I fear eternal damnation than I do anything else. An I don’t know if there is even a remote chance to see anything as a militaristic point of view, of do it this way, because I said so , or else, with the catch being, if you don’t that is your choice and now you are punished. The only thing I can even remotely come close to relating is a bad marriage, where one spouse pick any gender, creates some rules for the marriage and demands that the spouse follows those rules or face some kind of repercussion. OR a culture perhaps, that has pre arranged marriages and then everyone says, well that is their culture, we must respect that. All the while both are unhappy and go through with the arranged marriage to please and keep the peace with their respective families and to not go against the grain of their society. While in the mean time, I suspect a general response to all of this, will be something in lines with, you poor thing you just don’t understand Gods’ love and you need therapy. To which I would suggest not going that route as it is not helpful, charitable ,and only causes more division. An more over just comes off as a punch happy glossy eyed response. Again, back to my very first paragraph, once you get through the rest, this is why I am asking for actual tangible documentation with tangible clarifications. That can be found as some kind of resource material, other than pointing to scripture and making an opinion based off of scripture.

I can not clarify anything more than I have already said.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Once you’re baptized Catholic, you can’t “leave the Church” unless perhaps you are excommunicated; even then the penalty is imposed with the hope you’ll return.

If you miss Mass intentionally and without a good excuse such as illness or lack of transportation, then you’re already committing a grave, potentially mortal sin. Doesn’t really matter if it’s one grave sin or 5000 grave sins when you get to that point. One grave, potentially mortal sin can sever your relationship with God and cause a big risk of eternal damnation.

I’m sorry you’re having so many issues with the Church.

 

[Neithan]

then double dips on it by making it a sin to leave the Church…

double dips I don’t think there is some fat cardinal in the Vatican gleefully signing off on onerous laws to make Catholics suffer ever more guilt and oppression from sins imposed on them. Weekly Mass is one of the five laws of the Church, that’s true, and I think this is rooted as far back as Judaism, and the 10 Commandments, that we should keep the Sabbath holy (Saturday). One day a week devoted to God. In the early Church Sunday was substituted for the Sabbath because Our Lord rose from the grave on that day; and in modern times this has basically been reduced to one hour for Mass.

As for leaving the church entirely, that would be apostasy. Of course that’s a sin. What do you think sin is, exactly? It’s an act that is destructive of your relationship with God and with other people. So missing Mass damages your connection to the community of worship, and leaving the church entirely severs it. Both serious sins because they separate you from what is good for your soul. Think of the church’s laws not like a duty to pay (like a tax or something) but a guide for your well-being.

 

[TheMortenBay]

Dear OSN. As a recent convert it’s very hard for me to grasp why someone with the understanding of the Mass and the Church that I have would voluntarily want to leave, but be that as it may, I’ll try to speak into your issues a little bit. You seem to have a love/ hate relationship with the Church and have real issues with the Mass. Your analogy of the Church as spouse seems flawed to me, I’d rather look at it as a (perhaps overbearing) parent. The Church knows what you need and that you cannot live without prayer, so it has prescribed the Mass as the greatest prayer of all time for your benefit.

Christ is truly present in the Mass as he is in no other Church, which I think might explain why you want to come back even though you don’t want to go EVERY TIME the Church tells you to.

The Church has in recent years loosened its definition for what it means to be “outside the Church”, so that many protestants who (through no fault of their own) are not members of the Catholic Church are still members of Christ’s mystical body. But even so the fact remains that the Church doesn’t want you to leave, you are as close to Christ as you’ll ever be on Earth, and the Church only wants your salvation.

Like a parent, the Church loves you and wants you to have Christ through the Eucharist.

I’ll pray for you.

 

[OSN]

I appreciate the response Neithan, what I have trouble coming to grips with I suppose, is taking away the free will aspect of membership, If I wasn’t a cradle catholic, and or had I the option to wait till I was an adult on if I wanted to join the Church or not. I can not honestly say that I would have. The religious laws, are what they are, there is no getting around it. I understand that the concept of creating these laws are to protect not harm. But what the Church fails to acknowledge is that by creating a system that does not acknowledge up front that once you join, there is no out, that alone is a problem; If one chooses to willingly commit a sin, that is on the person. Even if that means leaving the Church, it to me becomes oppressive to not only create such religious laws, but redundant . Because now not only has a person committed a sin, but then the Church is also decreeing leaving or not attending mass a sin. Then I fall into, exactly is it a venial or mortal sin an then scruples follows.

 

[TheMortenBay]

Reading some of your replies makes it clear to me what I would do in your situation: I’d go talk to a priest i trust as soon as possible. He has no need for individual members to remain a member of the Catholic Church, but rather he wants to restore and preserve your relationship with Christ. I have also found that many priests are much more understanding of nuance than most laymen and CERTAINLY more so than anyone on this forum.

 

[OSN]

Thanks Morten, to clarify, I haven’t left the Church, because of the threat related to it if I do. I go out of obligation and nothing more. I am grateful for the Eucharist and the sacraments and that is really it.

But even so the fact remains that the Church doesn’t want you to leave, you are as close to Christ as you’ll ever be on Earth, and the Church only wants your salvation.

Like a parent, the Church loves you and wants you to have Christ through the Eucharist.

This I understand, but what my problem is, is the creation of a law that says now I am in a state of sin if I do leave, and more over that I can not leave if I want to.

Your analogy of the Church as spouse seems flawed to me

It is flawed from a theological stand point, or perspective. Pending on ones perspective yes it is flawed.

The Church knows what you need

This is where I differ , and I think society and a lot of Catholics do as well. The Church thinks it knows what is best for me. I know what I need. I know what my relationship is with Christ. I wouldn’t say I have issues with the Mass, I have issues with boring homilies, I have issues with not being able to understand my priests dialect, I have issues with the constant distractions and lack of silence before, during, and after Mass.

I do appreciate the prayers, I know the Church means well. But I am exhausted with the Church. As a whole, not the Eucharist, or Christ, or the sacraments. An in the end, I am probing to see if I can find something to fix all of this… An there might not be a way for me to, I might just have to bare it the best I can and take things for what they are, and let the chips fall where they may. I have other reasons by the way for not leaving the Church…

Though, to me, I think most religions do the same thing, they create rules that state something in regards to it is our way or the highway and you will go to Hell if you leave or be considered evil. Where as Christ, I can not ever fathom taking such a stance.

 

[Dlee]

I have issues with boring homilies, I have issues with not being able to understand my priests dialect, I have issues with the constant distractions and lack of silence before, during, and after Mass.

By singling out these issues, are you sure your struggle is with the Church and not your particular parish community?

 

[OSN]

By singling out these issues, are you sure your struggle is with the Church and not your particular parish community?

Eh they are separate issues, one with my parish, well and my diocese, and then the other as I have already stated. An I can’t really pack up at the moment and move to an entirely new and better diocese to overcome the obstacles that I have at my parish and with my diocese.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

have also found that many priests are much more understanding of nuance than most laymen and CERTAINLY more so than anyone on this forum.

This is partly because priests are getting to talk to someone in person, which is a much richer medium.
Unfortunately when conversing on the Internet, people often are not able to see the entire nuances of another’s comments, which leads to misunderstandings, people taking offense, people not fully understanding what the question or issue is exactly, etc.

This forum really works best for questions that are fairly neutral, such as “what does this Scripture verse mean?” or “is there some rule governing how the priest does procedure X during the Mass?” Anything that involves someone’s spiritual health or counseling is best taken to the individual priest rather than asking here, if for no other reason than a question like that will draw 10 different responses, and the original poster will likely find some of them unhelpful and may even get upset if somebody doesn’t get all the dimensions of what he is trying to say, often because it’s hard to fully express oneself by typing.

 

[Nicene]

Short answer, since I’m on a phone, to your question is ccc 846. Hope that’s what you were inquiring about with regards a written reference.

Peace and God bless
Nicene

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

So, just using the example of the Sunday obligation, in your understanding God does not or should not and has not ever required anything in salvation history of mankind? Nothing… ? no rules? guidelines or responsibilities in a relationship? What kind of Father would that be!?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

It’s like this—we understand Baptism to leave an “indelible mark” on one’s soul. That we belong to Jesus. And by indelible, it will be on our soul for all eternity.
That’s why you can’t formally leave the Church, because there is no Baptism-reversal ritual, nor can there be.

The other thing is this—God is the highest good. Nothing better. Top shelf. So by default, any choice that’s not-for-God is going to be for evil.

Now, there are no evil, people, only evil choices.
And in your defense, the moral/ethical/virtue filled life is hard. You will have to do things you don’t want, sometimes you will have to stand apart from the crowd, and that can be scary and painful, and it’s understandable to be scared or turned off by this.

But I challenge you to keep learning, find out not just what the moral code is, but why it is, and how it works out for the ultimate good of everybody.

Also, God doesn’t leave us alone to figure it out, and He doesn’t abandon us when we fail—we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and Jesus’ own sacrifice on the Cross which is a sign of great love.

I dunno. Hope that helps—you sound like you’re really wrestling with all this, and the fact that you pray is a really good sign
I’ll remember you in my prayers while your walking this road.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

but what my problem is, is the creation of a law that says now I am in a state of sin if I do leave, and more over that I can not leave if I want to.

What law are talking about?

AFAIK the Church doesn’t hold to this sort of legalism. It’s teachings are more nuanced than I think you think they are.

 

[OSN]

It would be a father who lets his children figure out life on his own and is ready to be there to help when needed. Not demanding and over power, over bearing, and oppressive to the point of creating a religious law, rule, sub section, what ever one wants to properly call it that implies; you better love me because I know what is right for you so much so that you will be punished if you ever leave me. But that is a perspective the Church doesn’t hold. The rest of society does though.

An I was thinking at one point that I was the only Catholic who thinks this way, but after looking at the world and other Catholics, I realize I am not the only one facing this… I might be the only one facing the turmoil and staying with the Church though. But I am staying not by choice, but under threat of punishment. An this constant echo of Gods love, isn’t as heart warming as a lot of people here seem to keep mentioning to some degree as being some pivotal point in not only joining the Church but also as a reason to stay.

For me there is a big difference between Gods love, feeling it, and knowing it is real, to acknowledging that love. But as the world stands, with everything the Church does , hasn’t done, and continues to do I find it extremely hard to want to defend the Church, let alone try and convince anyone that they should become Catholic or revert back to the Church.

An if anyone is wondering why I dont speak to a priest about this… You know that headache you get from this thread. There are not many priests out there, that can handle this for more than about an hour, and what I have to sift through is obviously going to take way longer than an hour, and I just doubt there is a priest out there who wants to invest any thing more than about 20 minutes into what I am dealing with. Let alone see me a second time about it. In theory one should be chomping at the bit too, but again, people tend to forget that priests are people, and have limits and have a life of their own they want to get back too. An rarely want to invest anymore time they have to into something like this, as would someone wanting to invest their time say into a job they dont really like, on a weekend. An that would be a paying job, versus how priests are not normally paid for their consultation.

 

[OSN]

so you are saying there is no law , with in the Catholic Church that says it isn’t a sin to leave the Church ?

That would be the law I am referencing, what ever the actual name to nit pick what I am talking about, I couldn’t tell, so if one wants to go down that route then I suppose you got me there is no religious law that says I nor anyone else cant leave the Church when they want. It is just when one walks out the door, everyone whispers, whoops that is a big time sin, you are in trouble.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

OSN, my heart breaks reading your posts. I can see how much pain and anger you are carrying with you. I can say with confidence that God does not want this for you. The Catholic Church doesn’t want this either. I’m really struggling to understand how something I see as so loving and so freeing is seen as so oppressive and stifling by another.

Do you think God has ever asked anything of his people? Has he ever placed any requirement or conditions on our union with Him? What about the OT laws? Do you consider them just or unjust?

I’m just trying to get a sense of your view of God and law before I formulate a more direct response.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

if one wants to go down that route then I suppose you got me there is no religious law that says I nor anyone else cant leave the Church when they want

Well, it’s you who are going that route. I mean, you’re the one talking about a law.

It is just when one walks out the door, everyone whispers, whoops that is a big time sin, you are in trouble.

Gossip? Gossip about someone committing a big time sin? That’s one reason why many people I know have left the Church. They don’t like the judgement, gossip and self righteousness coming from it’s “practicing” members.

 

[OSN]

Oh I can agree that God is Loving, and freeing, but only in the sense of the spiritual world. Freeing from death and sin, not pain and suffering. I consider the OT laws beyond unjust. Modern society adapts laws for the times, where as laws in religion an I am spreading that across the board of religions, doesn’t change at least not from an ancient tradition stand point. An the answer falls around, natural law, divine inspiration, and so forth. But when one tries to ask something like, well why cant modern people be divinely inspired, the answer usually comes around to, well, sorry but you were not educated along our religious guidelines, or you are thinking against the grain, and so we have to conclude it isn’t divinely inspired, where then by the same token, we are supposedly to believe that God is constantly in our lives and inspiring us constantly. Has God ever asked anything of his people, or placed any requirement or conditions, the answer is yes, the suggestion by which you asked is no. Or rather both yes and no. God nor Jesus, never created a physical institution that in turn created such vast discontent not only to society but also to its own people, in the form of schisms and debates such as this.