Clarification on Mormon Belief

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
I had tried to answer your question after you asked that, if I remember correctly. But I still don’t understand the question, so I don’t suppose any attempt to answer it will do. I don’t see anything in the account about Stephen that would lead to the conclusion of there having been “One Being” in what he saw and what he felt as he was “full of the Holy Ghost”.

ParkerD,

Sorry, perhaps I wasn’t clear on my question. You previously stated:

"The Nicene council came out with “Three Persons in One Divine Being” or however it is described, but that does not match what Stephen testified of having seen."

My question is, how does “Three Persons in One Divine Being” not match what Stephen testified of having seen? My question can also be stated as, what is your understanding of “three Persons in one divine Being” that leads you to the conclusion that it does not match what Stephen testified of having seen?

Your answer was:

"If by “essence” you mean glory, then Stephen certainly did see that there is a divine glory and that both the Father and the Son had that divine glory. The word “essence” is not used in the King James Bible at all. Is it used in the DR Bible?"

which really did not address my question of how “three Persons in one Divine Being” does not match Stephen’s vision, but was more directed at my clarification of “three Persons in one divine Being” as “three distinct Persons, of one essence”.

So, how does “three Persons in one divine Being” not match Stephen’s vision? Where is the contradiction or misunderstanding between the two? How do they not match?

 

[spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates,
Thanks for expressing that it is fascinating. I think it is that and more.

You are very welcome!

I think one who honestly has that question about true religion from God, would want to study the New Testament and figure out how the people who became members of the original church did that–the process they went through.

Done that. I’m not your average Catholic wannabe. I know more of the Old and New Testaments than I do of the Catechism, and I’m embarrassingly ignorant of the Early Church Fathers. I’m odd that way!

They listened to someone speaking to them and teaching them, usually. They didn’t just read a pamphlet or a written source and become convinced. They listened to the testimony of those who were teaching truth, and the truth rang true to their soul so they repented of sins and were baptized and became converted.

Agreed.

I don’t think one can do that through the internet or through television. I think it requires personal interaction, which would be why there are such a thing as missionaries who do that.

Well, I suppose that in a way you are a missionary! Or do you think there is some work of the gods that can only be done when one of their representatives is present? (Am I correct in calling the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit gods? Or do you think of only the Father as God and the Son and Spirit as something else?)

There are a number of people who have read the Book of Mormon and felt its truthfulness and have made contact to be taught and baptized, but that is not the normal process and would require a person who is so humble in their heart that they can feel the truth through the written word rather than the spoken word. When that happens, it is a fulfillment of Isaiah 29:18-19.

Thanks for the quote. Let’s check it out:

In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll,
and out of gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind will see.

Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD;
the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

(Isaiah 29:18-19)

Whatever you do, I enjoyed your comment and I wish you all the best.

I enjoyed your answer, and hope you will consider continuing our conversation!


If you will, I’m wondering why you believe Isaiah 29 is speaking of today rather than yesterday. Looking forward to your reply!

 

[Marie5890]

Indeed–Christ performed the greatest act of research the world has ever known. He had the same writings the scribes and Pharisees had, yet He also had the greatest teacher available, and sought the knowledge from heaven that was not available through the traditions of the Jews. He spoke against tradition as a source of truth, and rightly so–since tradition set the Jewish leaders against Him and against what He taught. He taught, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

He also taught as recorded in John 8, “He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
That kind of “hearing” is done by the soul and the heart. The Pharisees used their minds alone, and generally rejected the Savior because He was not what their minds were expecting. There is a tremendous lesson to be learned from that.

I disagree with your thought that the Pharisees problems was that they used their minds. Our minds are a gift from God and He expects us to use them.

What the problem comes from is the hardness of their hearts (arrogance).

It’s why humility is so necessary when following God and His will.

It is important to be wise as serpents, yet harmless as doves. Engaging the intellect is very important, it just has to be accompanied by the right attitude…

 

[ParkerD]

You are very welcome!


Done that. I’m not your average Catholic wannabe. I know more of the Old and New Testaments than I do of the Catechism, and I’m embarrassingly ignorant of the Early Church Fathers. I’m odd that way!

Agreed.

Well, I suppose that in a way you are a missionary! Or do you think there is some work of the Gods that can only be done when one of their representatives is present? (Am I correct in calling the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit gods? Or do you think of only the Father as God and the Son and Spirit as something else?)

Thanks for the quote. Let’s check it out:

In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll,
and out of gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind will see.

Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD;
the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

(Isaiah 29:18-19)

I enjoyed your answer, and hope you will consider continuing our conversation!


If you will, I’m wondering why you believe Isaiah 29 is speaking of today rather than yesterday. Looking forward to your reply!

Hi, Spockrates,
Thanks for all your comments, and the lightheartedness that is a delight.

Glad to understand that you have loved and studied the Bible. Spot on!

I really don’t refer to the Godhead (“Trinity”) as the “Gods”. When I think of “God,” then I think of the divine power, holiness, and goodness of God and that since all Three are unified in possessing those qualities, They are One God. I may think to myself, “Lord, bless me and bless my family today,” and when I do that I am thinking of all three members of the Godhead since all are involved in those blessings.

I had written about the early member converts and their “hearing” and believing as they heard, because it is clear that our hearts can become more involved and attuned when we hear with our ears–hear the voice tone of a person testifying, their sincerity, their conviction, that which their written word by itself can’t convey. Our inner spirit self connects with another person’s spirit self better by personal face-to-face communication than by written messages. Also, the Holy Spirit can become more actively involved in the person who is hearing with their ears than the person who is only reading with their eyes. There are then at least two and perhaps three senses involved rather than just the eyes–the ears and the sensory receptors of touch, sometimes.

One can only be an “open the door” kind of “preparer of the way” on the internet in a forum such as this. I have an interest in being a “preparer of the way.” Then it is in the hands of the person doing the reading to begin the real “hearing” process.

If you read all of Isaiah 29 (you might consider reading the King James Translation), and are familiar with Isaiah in general, then one can conclude that Isaiah’s major focus was the diaspora or scattering of the house of Israel and the eventual gathering of Israel plus the gathering of the Gentiles. There are many “in that day” verses, and some would be connected with the near-end times before the Second Coming of Christ, when the Jews will be gathered and the other tribes of the house of Israel will be gathered and the Gentiles will also be gathered. A “scroll” or a “book” (KJV) would represent the writings of prophets, and the “eyes of the blind” being able to see and the “deaf hear the words of the book (scroll)” would signify that those who had a spiritual loss of sight or loss of hearing because the prophets’ words were not understood (see verses 13 and 14), will hear and understand and read and understand. Then they will “rejoice in the Holy One of Israel,” meaning rejoice in their knowledge of Jesus Christ and His saving gospel.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD,

Sorry, perhaps I wasn’t clear on my question. You previously stated:

"The Nicene council came out with “Three Persons in One Divine Being” or however it is described, but that does not match what Stephen testified of having seen."

My question is, how does “Three Persons in One Divine Being” not match what Stephen testified of having seen? My question can also be stated as, what is your understanding of “three Persons in one divine Being” that leads you to the conclusion that it does not match what Stephen testified of having seen?

Your answer was:

"If by “essence” you mean glory, then Stephen certainly did see that there is a divine glory and that both the Father and the Son had that divine glory. The word “essence” is not used in the King James Bible at all. Is it used in the DR Bible?"

which really did not address my question of how “three Persons in one Divine Being” does not match Stephen’s vision, but was more directed at my clarification of “three Persons in one divine Being” as “three distinct Persons, of one essence”.

So, how does “three Persons in one divine Being” not match Stephen’s vision? Where is the contradiction or misunderstanding between the two? How do they not match?

TheosisM,
I have tried to understand the concept of “One Divine Being” and was comfortable with the idea of that terminology meaning “the substance that makes God, God” which to me does match up with the word “essence” and the words “Complete Unity of Purpose and Will”–but then when I say I agree with that, I am told my belief differs from that so I am left thinking I will never understand the words “Three Persons in One Divine Being.”

I think the account of Stephen shows there were two Separate Persons he saw in vision standing side by side, and he felt the presence of the Holy Ghost so there were Three Separate Persons present in his experience. And nothing within those verses conveys that a reader needs to make a distinction that there is “One Divine Being” present, though of course those Divine Persons have a like purpose and a like power and will.

 

[spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates,
Thanks for all your comments, and the lightheartedness that is a delight.

I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful response, too! And I am grateful to people like yourself who take the time to teach me something new, and tell me why it’s true.

Glad to understand that you have loved and studied the Bible. Spot on!

Agreed. Reading Jesus words is the next best thing to being there!

I really don’t refer to the Godhead (“Trinity”) as the “Gods”. When I think of “God,” then I think of the divine power, holiness, and goodness of God and that since all Three are unified in possessing those qualities, They are One God. I may think to myself, “Lord, bless me and bless my family today,” and when I do that I am thinking of all three members of the Godhead since all are involved in those blessings.

I’m glad I asked, then! Fascinating way of understanding God. Many Catholics, and many Protestants, also consider God to be a what, more than a who. God is one what in three whos, they tell me. I think there are some similarities between the two ways of thinking, perhaps.

I had written about the early member converts and their “hearing” and believing as they heard, because it is clear that our hearts can become more involved and attuned when we hear with our ears–hear the voice tone of a person testifying, their sincerity, their conviction, that which their written word by itself can’t convey.

Agreed.

Our inner spirit self connects with another person’s spirit self better by personal face-to-face communication than by written messages. Also, the Holy Spirit can become more actively involved in the person who is hearing with their ears than the person who is only reading with their eyes. There are then at least two and perhaps three senses involved rather than just the eyes–the ears and the sensory receptors of touch, sometimes.

True. But I suppose you know that you yourself are the only LDS missionary some Catholics will ever see (and the only Book of Mormon some Catholics will ever read)! In a way, then, God has opened the door for more evangelism than ever before, don’t you think?

One can only be an “open the door” kind of “preparer of the way” on the internet in a forum such as this. I have an interest in being a “preparer of the way.” Then it is in the hands of the person doing the reading to begin the real “hearing” process.

Yes, like John the Baptist to the Jewish people, or Socrates to the Greeks.

If you read all of Isaiah 29 (you might consider reading the King James Translation), and are familiar with Isaiah in general, then one can conclude that Isaiah’s major focus was the diaspora or scattering of the house of Israel and the eventual gathering of Israel plus the gathering of the Gentiles. There are many “in that day” verses, and some would be connected with the near-end times before the Second Coming of Christ, when the Jews will be gathered and the other tribes of the house of Israel will be gathered and the Gentiles will also be gathered. A “scroll” or a “book” (KJV) would represent the writings of prophets, and the “eyes of the blind” being able to see and the “deaf hear the words of the book (scroll)” would signify that those who had a spiritual loss of sight or loss of hearing because the prophets’ words were not understood (see verses 13 and 14), will hear and understand and read and understand. Then they will “rejoice in the Holy One of Israel,” meaning rejoice in their knowledge of Jesus Christ and His saving gospel.

Yes, I think I see what you mean–and I will read it in the KJV, thank you (I believe I have one here on my bookshelf, but I’ll have to wipe the dust off of it).


I was a Futurist myself when I was Protestant. I saw a future fulfillment in much of the prophecies of the Bible. Some Protestants and Catholics question whether Isaiah was writing for us today, however. How would you respond to them?

 

[ParkerD]

I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful response, too! And I am grateful to people like yourself who take the time to teach me something new, and tell me why it’s true.


Agreed. Reading Jesus words is the next best thing to being there!


I’m glad I asked, then! Fascinating way of understanding God. Many Catholics, and many Protestants, also consider God to be a what, more than a who. God is one what in three whos, they tell me. I think there are some similarities between the two ways of thinking, perhaps.

Agreed.

True. But I suppose you know that you yourself are the only LDS missionary some Catholics will ever see (and the only Book of Mormon some Catholics will ever read)! In a way, then, God has opened the door for more evangelism than ever before, don’t you think?


Yes, like John the Baptist to the Jewish people, or Socrates to the Greeks.


Yes, I think I see what you mean–and I will read it in the KJV, thank you (I believe I have one here on my bookshelf, but I’ll have to wipe the dust off of it).


I was a Futurist myself when I was Protestant. I saw a future fulfillment in much of the prophecies of the Bible. Some Protestants and Catholics question whether Isaiah was writing for us today, however. How would you respond to them?

Spockrates,
Thanks for showing you have understood what I was trying to say. I appreciate that.

I love the words of Isaiah, and see their fulfillment happening in today’s world through gatherings of Israel and the Gentiles that are indeed happening, preparatory to the Second Coming of Christ.

I would respond to those who consider Isaiah to have been writing about former times, that they ought to consider reading all of Isaiah, Hosea, Daniel 7 and 12, and the book of Revelation, and consider the words of Daniel 12:10–“Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”

There is no question that Isaiah had an interest in the entire scope of the work of the Savior, including the end times, for Isaiah 53 embraces all of humankind in Christ’s mission of saving all the “sheep” who “have gone astray”. Isaiah 11 is a scripture that describes Millenial conditions. Isaiah was one of the most literary, gifted poetically, prophets of all the ages of time, in my view. Often his writings convey double meanings, like Shakespeare often did.

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates,
Thanks for showing you have understood what I was trying to say. I appreciate that.

I gather you must have met with some abuse here, before! No need to thank me for the respect that is due to anyone!

I love the words of Isaiah, and see their fulfillment happening in today’s world through gatherings of Israel and the Gentiles that are indeed happening, preparatory to the Second Coming of Christ.

Yes, I think Israel becoming a Jewish nation once again in 1948 was an unprecedented event in recorded human history. Much of what Isaiah predicted appears to be a writing of history before it happens.

I would respond to those who consider Isaiah to have been writing about former times, that they ought to consider reading all of Isaiah, Hosea, Daniel 7 and 12, and the book of Revelation, and consider the words of Daniel 12:10–“Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”

There is no question that Isaiah had an interest in the entire scope of the work of the Savior, including the end times, for Isaiah 53 embraces all of humankind in Christ’s mission of saving all the “sheep” who “have gone astray”. Isaiah 11 is a scripture that describes Millenial conditions. Isaiah was one of the most literary, gifted poetically, prophets of all the ages of time, in my view. Often his writings convey double meanings, like Shakespeare often did.

Yes. I love his predictions of Christ’s crucifixion and death in chapter 53. And I find his words at the beginning of Isaiah memorable:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isaiah 1:18)

Love that part about reasoning together with God! Gives me hope that I can escape deception by thinking things through. Which brings me to another question (sorry, I tend to ask a lot of them, for I have many more questions than answers)!


How do you think God reasons with someone like myself? I mean, what method of his communication do you think I should recognize rely on to weed out lies from the truth?

 

[ParkerD]

I gather you must have met with some abuse here, before! No need to thank me for the respect that is due to anyone!


Yes, I think Israel becoming a Jewish nation once again in 1948 was an unprecedented event in recorded human history. Much of what Isaiah predicted appears to be a writing of history before it happens.

Yes. I love his predictions of Christ’s crucifixion and death in chapter 53. And I find his words at the beginning of Isaiah memorable:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isaiah 1:18)

Love that part about reasoning together with God! Gives me hope that I can escape deception by thinking things through. Which brings me to another question (sorry, I tend to ask a lot of them, for I have many more questions than answers)!


How do you think God reasons with someone like myself? I mean, what method of his communication do you think I should recognize and rely on to weed out lies from the truth?

Spockrates,

Before answering your question, a point to add about Isaiah and Hosea is that the gathering of the tribe of Ephraim figures in prominently with the gathering of Israel, and would not be the same as the gathering of the modern nation of Israel. The tribe of Ephraim has a role in the latter days that is an important role, in that Ephraim was “scattered among the nations”.

We ought to think of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as the greatest of all Teachers we could possibly have, and that one of their major interests is teaching us. Given that, then we would want to figure out what their intent will be in teaching us–what the desired outcome is. What qualities and attributes do They have in their “lesson plan” for us to achieve? (Those are evident throughout the New Testament.)

When we are asked in the scriptures to be humble, it figures that we ought to be willing to be taught in the way that God has presented as His teaching methods through the Bible–meaning not do things “our way”, but do them “His way.” That would be an absolutely first “lesson”, and if we don’t first learn that “lesson” that I would think these Teachers would be very patient in essentially letting us “wing it” until we do decide to learn through “His way.”

Once we decide to be humble and do things in our learning process in “His way”, then we would be in a spiritual frame of mind and heart to be really taught as we do what Jesus did as He “increased in wisdom and stature” (He read the writings of the prophets, and pondered them with a prayerful heart and without relying on the traditions of the Jewish teachers of His day) and do what the early believers did as they heard the words of Peter and John and Paul (they listened and hearkened and felt the Holy Spirit confirm to their heart and soul that what they were hearing was true).

I think it would be well to read 1 Corinthians 2 and really think about how spiritual communication from God is given to us through “spiritual discernment” rather than through “enticing words of man’s wisdom.”

All the best to you!

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
I have tried to understand the concept of “One Divine Being” and was comfortable with the idea of that terminology meaning “the substance that makes God, God” which to me does match up with the word “essence” and the words “Complete Unity of Purpose and Will”–but then when I say I agree with that, I am told my belief differs from that so I am left thinking I will never understand the words “Three Persons in One Divine Being.”

You are correct that “one divine being” is the substance that makes God, God. I think one of the main differences between our beliefs is that, from what I understand, Mormons also believe that humans have (this is a trouble word for me, “have” instead of “are”) this same substance, since we are literally the children of Heavenly Parents.

I think the account of Stephen shows there were two Separate Persons he saw in vision standing side by side, and he felt the presence of the Holy Ghost so there were Three Separate Persons present in his experience. And nothing within those verses conveys that a reader needs to make a distinction that there is “One Divine Being” present, though of course those Divine Persons have a like purpose and a like power and will.

This seems to be slightly different from what you said originally, that Stephen’s vision “doesn’t match” the “one divine Being” theology. I don’t think anyone is expected to come to the conclusion that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are “one divine Being” from Stephen’s vision, and I agree that you won’t get “one Divine Being” simply from Stephen’s vision alone. What I do think that we can discover from Stephen’s vision, if we take it literally (the whole “on the right hand” issue) is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are really distinct from each other, as we see in other places throughout the New Testament. Therefore, Stephen’s vision is not contradicting anything said at Nicaea, and in fact supports Trinitarianism (and the Mormon Godhead) in that They are distinct from each other, if we take it literally again (the on the right hand issue). And in that, Trinitarians would believe that this was a theophany, and that the Father manifested Himself in a way that a human could comprehend, as has been done throughout the Bible (the Holy Spirit as a dove, for example).

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates,

Before answering your question, a point to add about Isaiah and Hosea is that the gathering of the tribe of Ephraim figures in prominently with the gathering of Israel, and would not be the same as the gathering of the modern nation of Israel. The tribe of Ephraim has a role in the latter days that is an important role, in that Ephraim was “scattered among the nations”.

Parker:

Sorry for being so rude to not get back to you till now. Family matters to which I had to attend.


If you are interested in continuing the conversation, please tell me why you believe God was addressing only one tribe through Isaiah rather than all 12.

We ought to think of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as the greatest of all Teachers we could possibly have, and that one of their major interests is teaching us. Given that, then we would want to figure out what their intent will be in teaching us–what the desired outcome is. What qualities and attributes do They have in their “lesson plan” for us to achieve? (Those are evident throughout the New Testament.)

Agreed! That is my desire. My wonder is how to know when God is attempting to teach me and when He is not.

When we are asked in the scriptures to be humble, it figures that we ought to be willing to be taught in the way that God has presented as His teaching methods through the Bible–meaning not do things “our way”, but do them “His way.” That would be an absolutely first “lesson”, and if we don’t first learn that “lesson” that I would think these Teachers would be very patient in essentially letting us “wing it” until we do decide to learn through “His way.”

Absolutely! As Jesus prayed, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.”

Once we decide to be humble and do things in our learning process in “His way”, then we would be in a spiritual frame of mind and heart to be really taught as we do what Jesus did as He “increased in wisdom and stature” (He read the writings of the prophets, and pondered them with a prayerful heart and without relying on the traditions of the Jewish teachers of His day) and do what the early believers did as they heard the words of Peter and John and Paul (they listened and hearkened and felt the Holy Spirit confirm to their heart and soul that what they were hearing was true).

Yes, I believe that is my desire. At least, that is the desire I want to have.

I think it would be well to read 1 Corinthians 2 and really think about how spiritual communication from God is given to us through “spiritual discernment” rather than through “enticing words of man’s wisdom.”

All the best to you!

I will! I’ll read it in the KJV, as well, and let you know what I find.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker:

Sorry for being so rude to not get back to you till now. Family matters to which I had to attend.


If you are interested in continuing the conversation, please tell me why you believe God was addressing only one tribe through Isaiah rather than all 12.

Agreed! That is my desire. My wonder is how to know when God is attempting to teach me and when He is not.

Absolutely! As Jesus prayed, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.”


Yes, I believe that is my desire. At least, that is the desire I want to have.

I will! I’ll read it in the KJV, as well, and let you know what I find.

Good morning and good day to you, Spockrates,

I need to clarify about what I was meaning to write about the “tribe of Judah” and about the “tribe of Ephraim”, and their scattering and gathering.

If you will read Genesis 48:19-20 and then Genesis 49:1 and 8-10 as well as 22-26, you will note that (1) Ephraim’s “seed shall become a multitude of nations” in that “Joseph is a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:” and (2) Judah will have the “sceptre” of being the “lawgiver” “until Shiloh come”; “and unto him shall the gathering of the people be”. Shiloh is Christ–He is the focus of the gathering of all the house of Israel and eventually the gathering of the Gentiles.

Next, read Isaiah 10:20-22 and Isaiah 11:10-13. The root of Jesse is Christ. The “outcasts of Israel” and the “dispersed of Judah” will be gathered “from the four corners of the earth” including from the “islands of the sea.” Compare these prophecies with Deuteronomy 4:27-31 and then with Hosea 9:17 and Hosea 14:1-9 and Hosea 1:10-11.

You would be familiar with the two separate kingdoms, the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel, that became separated under Rehoboam and Jeroboam in about 975 BC. The kingdom of Israel included ten tribes with Ephraim as the leading tribe, and the kingdom of Judah included two tribes with Judah as the leader. The Northern kingdom (Ephraim and his fellows) was taken captive by the conquest of the Assyrians in about 720 BC, and later the Southern kingdom (Judah) was taken captive by the conquest of the Babylonians in about 587 BC. The diaspora would include these two events that figured prominently in the “scattering among the nations” prophesied by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:27. (Note also that the Book of Mormon deals with two groups of people who were warned to leave Jerusalem before the conquest by Babylon, and those two groups migrated to the Americas where their descendants eventually were scattered among the people of the Americas, thus further fulfilling Moses’ prophecy.)

So the gatherings in the latter days include the gathering of “Ephraim and the tribes of Israel his fellows” (an expression used in Ezekiel 37:19), and the gathering of Judah. Ezekiel 37:21-28 and 36:24 also confirms these gatherings. These gatherings also fulfill Isaiah 54:1-7 and Isaiah 49:6 and 13-23, with the Gentile nations becoming a part of those gatherings.

 

[spockrates]

Good morning and good day to you, Spockrates,

I need to clarify about what I was meaning to write about the “tribe of Judah” and about the “tribe of Ephraim”, and their scattering and gathering.

If you will read Genesis 48:19-20 and then Genesis 49:1 and 8-10 as well as 22-26, you will note that (1) Ephraim’s “seed shall become a multitude of nations” in that “Joseph is a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:” and (2) Judah will have the “sceptre” of being the “lawgiver” “until Shiloh come”; “and unto him shall the gathering of the people be”. Shiloh is Christ–He is the focus of the gathering of all the house of Israel and eventually the gathering of the Gentiles.

Next, read Isaiah 10:20-22 and Isaiah 11:10-13. The root of Jesse is Christ. The “outcasts of Israel” and the “dispersed of Judah” will be gathered “from the four corners of the earth” including from the “islands of the sea.” Compare these prophecies with Deuteronomy 4:27-31 and then with Hosea 9:17 and Hosea 14:1-9 and Hosea 1:10-11.

You would be familiar with the two separate kingdoms, the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel, that became separated under Rehoboam and Jeroboam in about 975 BC. The kingdom of Israel included ten tribes with Ephraim as the leading tribe, and the kingdom of Judah included two tribes with Judah as the leader. The Northern kingdom (Ephraim and his fellows) was taken captive by the conquest of the Assyrians in about 720 BC, and later the Southern kingdom (Judah) was taken captive by the conquest of the Babylonians in about 587 BC. The diaspora would include these two events that figured prominently in the “scattering among the nations” prophesied by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:27. (Note also that the Book of Mormon deals with two groups of people who were warned to leave Jerusalem before the conquest by Babylon, and those two groups migrated to the Americas where their descendants eventually were scattered among the people of the Americas, thus further fulfilling Moses’ prophecy.)

So the gatherings in the latter days include the gathering of “Ephraim and the tribes of Israel his fellows” (an expression used in Ezekiel 37:19), and the gathering of Judah. Ezekiel 37:21-28 and 36:24 also confirms these gatherings. These gatherings also fulfill Isaiah 54:1-7 and Isaiah 49:6 and 13-23, with the Gentile nations becoming a part of those gatherings.

Thank you, Parker, for answering one of my questions. Some of what you mention is familiar and some is fantastic! I should think it would take much investigation to find convincing evidence that “those two groups migrated to the Americas where their descendants eventually were scattered among the people of the Americas, thus further fulfilling Moses’ prophecy.” I’m sure such evidence exists, for there are many Mormons who believe this to be historical fact.

This is why I wonder exactly how to know the truth of what you say. It’s a topic in which I have great interest–the difference between spiritual discernment and spiritual deception. I wonder if you have some insight into how I can be certain that what you say is true.

 

[ParkerD]

Thank you, Parker, for answering one of my questions. Some of what you mention is familiar and some is fantastic! I should think it would take much investigation to find convincing evidence that “those two groups migrated to the Americas where their descendants eventually were scattered among the people of the Americas, thus further fulfilling Moses’ prophecy.” I’m sure such evidence exists, for there are many Mormons who believe this to be historical fact.

This is why I wonder exactly how to know the truth of what you say. It’s a topic in which I have great interest–the difference between spiritual discernment and spiritual deception. I wonder if you have some insight into how I can be certain that what you say is true.

Spockrates,
If I were a reader of the Bible with sincere desire and an interest in figuring out if Isaiah 2:2-3 and Isaiah 49:21-23 and Isaiah 50:11 have fulfillment somewhere on this earth, and figuring out if the expression “who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children…” has fulfillment on this earth through the gathering of the tribes of Israel other than the tribe of Judah since Judah has preserved its heritage identity while the other tribes who were scattered have lost their knowledge of their heritage–then I would keep in mind the passage from Daniel 12 that I had cited earlier that “none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”

To be spiritually wise one would need to establish communication with God that is two-way communication, wherein one is absolutely sure they know the “voice of the Good Shepherd” and the voice of the Holy Spirit as distinguished and distinguishable from all other voices clamoring to get attention, whether voices on this earth, voices of traditions, or voices of false spirits that would definitely be expected to attempt to provide spiritual deception. One would be keenly aware that the knowledge is going to be somewhat hidden, in order for the fulfillment of the phrase “none of the wicked shall understand.”

That spiritually wise two-way communication relies on a person understanding what we had agreed was an important first condition–humility and desiring to learn in God’s way and not man’s way, since God desires to teach and not hold back, but desires that we really do feel deep in our heart and mind “not my will be done, but Thine be done”.

So it goes back to the steps I had noted earlier in our conversation–“hearing” the truths that are available just as in the New Testament through first-hand, visibly seeing the person and listening to their words of testimony; having the background in the Bible that allows being taught by the Holy Spirit as Christ was rather than by tradition; being able to read a “book” or a “scroll” with spiritual vision that sees rather than has spiritual blindness, and hears rather than has spiritual deafness (Isaiah 29:18-19); and then being willing to pray about the messages from these sources so that God can really be the teacher because the student has humbled themselves enough to ask with a pure heart.

Again, all the best to you, my kind friend. You may have wanted me to cite some sure archeological evidence about the remnants of the tribes of Israel in the Americas, and I do have some knowledge about that in things I’ve read and heard, but I don’t rely on those sources of second-hand evidence, so I would not suggest them to anyone else. I would want a first-hand source, and that first-hand source is the Holy Spirit testifying to the soul.

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates,
If I were a reader of the Bible with sincere desire and an interest in figuring out if Isaiah 2:2-3 and Isaiah 49:21-23 and Isaiah 50:11 have fulfillment somewhere on this earth, and figuring out if the expression “who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children…” has fulfillment on this earth through the gathering of the tribes of Israel other than the tribe of Judah since Judah has preserved its heritage identity while the other tribes who were scattered have lost their knowledge of their heritage–then I would keep in mind the passage from Daniel 12 that I had cited earlier that “none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”

I do have such a desire. I think the Mormon story has quite an emotional appeal for me. I mean, it’s a fantastic story of a fight for survival, and the struggle of good against evil, and the cautionary tale of compromise and the resulting demise. The Mormon settlers moving out west is a story with some of the same appeal, as is the fictional Battle Star Galactica story (which I understand was written by a Mormon). I believe it is perhaps one of the best science fiction TV series yet produced (the recent one, I mean, not the cheesy TV series of the 1980s). Emotionally I desire it to be true. I suppose I’d get satisfaction out of making the leap from emotion to reason.

To be spiritually wise one would need to establish communication with God that is two-way communication, wherein one is absolutely sure they know the “voice of the Good Shepherd” and the voice of the Holy Spirit as distinguished and distinguishable from all other voices clamoring to get attention, whether voices on this earth, voices of traditions, or voices of false spirits that would definitely be expected to attempt to provide spiritual deception. One would be keenly aware that the knowledge is going to be somewhat hidden, in order for the fulfillment of the phrase “none of the wicked shall understand.”

Yes, well, that’s my difficulty, you see. I’ve not been able to know for certain when God is speaking for some time, now. I used to think I was sure, by relying on the words of the Bible. But the good Catholics here have shown me that Christ’s words in Scripture are not as clear as I once believed. Perhaps you will be able to help me find the clarity I lack?

That spiritually wise two-way communication relies on a person understanding what we had agreed was an important first condition–humility and desiring to learn in God’s way and not man’s way, since God desires to teach and not hold back, but desires that we really do feel deep in our heart and mind “not my will be done, but Thine be done”.

Yes, that is my desire, for God did say:

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

(Isaiah 55:9)

Another good quote from Isaiah! Perhaps the Holy Spirit whispered that one in my mind’s ear?

So it goes back to the steps I had noted earlier in our conversation–“hearing” the truths that are available just as in the New Testament through first-hand, visibly seeing the person and listening to their words of testimony; having the background in the Bible that allows being taught by the Holy Spirit as Christ was rather than by tradition; being able to read a “book” or a “scroll” with spiritual vision that sees rather than has spiritual blindness, and hears rather than has spiritual deafness (Isaiah 29:18-19); and then being willing to pray about the messages from these sources so that God can really be the teacher because the student has humbled themselves enough to ask with a pure heart.

Yes, sounds good to me! Especially the part about prayer for wisdom, for James writes:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

(James 1:5)

Again, all the best to you, my kind friend. You may have wanted me to cite some sure archeological evidence about the remnants of the tribes of Israel in the Americas, and I do have some knowledge about that in things I’ve read and heard, but I don’t rely on those sources of second-hand evidence, so I would not suggest them to anyone else. I would want a first-hand source, and that first-hand source is the Holy Spirit testifying to the soul.

Well, if you want to go, I thank you for answering my questions. If you don’t mind sticking around, I have more!

 

[Marie5890]

Again, all the best to you, my kind friend. You may have wanted me to cite some sure archeological evidence about the remnants of the tribes of Israel in the Americas, and I do have some knowledge about that in things I’ve read and heard, but I don’t rely on those sources of second-hand evidence, so I would not suggest them to anyone else. I would want a first-hand source, and that first-hand source is the Holy Spirit testifying to the soul.

(I admit I have always disrespect that dodge, even when I myself had employed it. And I did. But hey, gets one out of a bind, sorta.)

 

[ParkerD]

I do have such a desire. … I suppose I’d get satisfaction out of making the leap from emotion to reason.

Yes, well, that’s my difficulty, you see. I’ve not been able to know for certain when God is speaking for some time, now. I used to think I was sure, by relying on the words of the Bible. … Perhaps you will be able to help me find the clarity I lack?

Yes, that is my desire, for God did say:

(Isaiah 55:9)

Another good quote from Isaiah! Perhaps the Holy Spirit whispered that one in my mind’s ear?

Yes, sounds good to me! Especially the part about prayer for wisdom, for James writes:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

(James 1:5)



Well, if you want to go, I thank you for answering my questions. If you don’t mind sticking around, I have more!

Spockrates,
Good day to you. I don’t mind sticking around, as long as you are aware that my role would be a “preparer of the way” as I had noted before.

I think your questions here were very important ones.

I’ve not been able to know for certain when God is speaking for some time, now. I used to think I was sure, by relying on the words of the Bible. … Perhaps you will be able to help me find the clarity I lack?

(Isaiah 55:9)[/INDENT]For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Another good quote from Isaiah! Perhaps the Holy Spirit whispered that one in my mind’s ear?

I’ll answer the second question first. The answer would be “yes”. When we bring a sincere heart to a spiritual question or perhaps a relationship question, and have studied the Bible enough that those messages that the Holy Spirit can remind us of are available somewhere in our memory bank, then the Holy Spirit will prompt our memory and refresh our mind and confirm to our heart that the scripture we have remembered is true.

If I were you, I would want to find the instances in the Bible where the Holy Spirit’s prompting was not only evident but was described in a way that we can relate to. Here are a few:

1 Kings 19:11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The common thread in these examples of the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost, is that there is a spiritual communication source that should not be expected to be audible with the ears (though Samuel had that as a boy). It is commonly a “still small voice” or a “heart burning within us”, a “pricking” with a sense of desire and willingness to do what the Lord has prompted us to do, and a feeling of “liberty” that says to our heart, “this is right!”

So just as you were guided to remember that verse in Isaiah, the Holy Spirit will guide your search, and prick your heart, and at some point you will feel “this is right!”

 

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by spockrates:

Hello again, Parker.

I’m interested in learning what you believe are the most important ways that the Catholic Church drifted away. I myself am interested in finding out the differences between the LDS religion and the Catholic religion regarding the way of salvation. Any answer you have time to give will be appreciated.

Spockrates,
I have answered the first question posed in your comment above, at other times, but I have done that because I was hoping that someone would be “pricked” in their heart and thus I would have been an instrument in “preparing the way.”

To do that gets into “negative” territory, and I don’t necessarily think that is helpful, especially if a person has already been “pricked” in their heart. I have the impression that you have experienced having been “pricked” in your heart, so rather that dwell on negatives, I’d like to move into positive mode.

Also, the reason I wanted to respond on this thread is that as noted in the parable of the sower, (Matthew 13:7) “And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:”

It felt like to respond on that particular thread would be to place a seed among thorns, and that did not seem wise. I think environment is going to be important for a seed to flourish, and that is one of the important teachings of the Savior.

The “way of salvation” in the LDS church is that a group of people who have made covenants with Jesus Christ is able to move in the direction of really building Zion on earth, through keeping their covenants and growing in their ability to be supportive of each other through each member having a called responsibility; each male having the priesthood as both a responsibility and a blessing to their family plus a training responsibility for each boy of age twelve or older; all the members being able to listen and hearken to prophets and apostles called of God; and all the members being taught that it is their personal and continuous responsibility to bring the Holy Spirit into their lives through how they treat others (especially within family), how they search the scriptures, how they pray, and how they listen for the Spirit’s promptings in day to day decisions and actions.

Isaiah wrote about Zion increasing in beauty, and flourishing. You would do well to read Isaiah 58 about the law of the fast and how the poor are helped through the application of that law. Another important idea is in Jeremiah 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If one thinks of what verse 34 is saying, it would mean that the Holy Spirit is so prevalent among the people that they no longer need to be taught by a neighbor, because each person will know for themselves and understand the personal spiritual guidance they receive. That is how Zion gets established and flourishes.

 

[Rocket_Man]

TheosisM,
I think the account of Stephen shows there were two Separate Persons he saw in vision standing side by side, and he felt the presence of the Holy Ghost so there were Three Separate Persons present in his experience. And nothing within those verses conveys that a reader needs to make a distinction that there is “One Divine Being” present, though of course those Divine Persons have a like purpose and a like power and will.

Luke wrote about Stephen’s vision using narratives intended to make a specific point for other purposes than making any Christological conclusions. The vindication of Jesus and by extension Stephen is exactly the point of the vision.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Originally Posted by spockrates:
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If one thinks of what verse 34 is saying, it would mean that the Holy Spirit is so prevalent among the people that they no longer need to be taught by a neighbor, because each person will know for themselves and understand the personal spiritual guidance they receive. That is how Zion gets established and flourishes.

Verse 34 is simply saying the Holy Spirit will testify of Christ Jesus as Savior. " for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." The ministry of the Holy Spirit always exalts the completed work of the true Christ.

When the ministry raises people’s esteem of the one true Jesus Christ, who was born of a virgin and was crucified – if it confirms and establishes their minds in the truth that He is the Son of God and the Savior of men – then it is a sure sign that it is from the Spirit of God. If the spirit at work among a people convinces them of Christ and leads them to Him; if it confirms their minds in the belief of the history of Christ as He appeared in the flesh; if it teaches them that He is the Son of God to save sinners; if it reveals that He is the only Savior, and that they stand in great need of Him; and if it begets in them higher and more honorable thoughts of Christ than they used to have; if it inclines their affections more to Him – that is a sure sign that it is the true and right Spirit.