Clarification on Mormon Belief

[ParkerD]

Yes, Parker, I’m looking forward to what God has in store. I know where I’d like to be (at Jesus’ feet listening to Him speak) but I’m not quite sure if getting there is probable and what path to take. I suppose that, like Socrates, I’m the object of ridicule of some. Having my head lifted to heaven and what will come, I tend to not watch where I’m going, and foolishly stumble and fall.

“You’ll never get there,” both Catholics and Protestants tell me (ironically, I suppose, for they tend not to agree on so much but are unanimous in condemning me for my indecision)! And I suppose they are both right in shaking their heads and rolling their eyes and jeering at me, for I was once on the road to the highest heaven (or so Evangelicals told me) until I started asking questions of Catholics. In answering my questions, Catholics caused me to see that perhaps some important beliefs I used to believe might not be true. My discussions with Catholics have lead me off the road to heaven, Evangelicals tell me. And if I don’t turn back soon, I’m damned for sure.

Catholics, on the other hand, tell me I’m better off for having left the road of lies, but still they chastise me for not committing myself to what they say is the truth. But even though I’m sure that I’m not sure what the truth is any more, I’m still not sure that that of which they are so sure is the truth I’m looking for.

So I’ve stumbled off the path of Evangelicalism and walked right into a big oak tree and fallen on my kiester! And that’s where you find me, Parker, parked right here at a fork in the road of my life rubbing my sore nose and arse and wondering which way to go. To the left is the road Evangelicals warn me to get back on. To the right is the Catholic road, which they tell me is the oldest and most trusted way to God. I’ve meet a lot of folks passing me going down either way. Then there is your road, down the middle of the two, and I’m awfully glad you’ve stopped on your journey a moment to tell me where you believe it will lead you and why you are so confident of the way you’ve chosen. For I’m afraid that I’m not confident which way to go at all.

Spockrates,
Wow–a literary gem here as well as a fascinating story. Thanks for sharing these insights about yourself, and for the prior post that was again spot on and insightful.

I think you’re perceptive when you wrote of “down the middle of the two”, because as a person receives the companionship of the Holy Ghost, they feel the kind of “freedom” Evangelicals probably feel–a kind of euphoria–but yet they also feel the need to recognize the importance of progressing through following a path that leads “strait and narrow” somewhere–toward change, toward real service to others that some would call "works’, and toward covenant making through the ordinances of the gospel and the personal promises with the Lord, Jesus Christ.

But that is a human way of expressing it. As you follow the Holy Spirit’s promptings, you will receive a far deeper insight into those kinds of impacts in your life, than I can express in an example or ordinary language. I hope that you will consider the Abraham example I noted from Hebrews 11, and realize that he went on a journey more than once as a “stranger in a strange land” as he was led by God, and took Sarah along with her support and help. The blessings that opened up to them as they did that were limitless when you think about it.

The Lord bless you in your quest, kind friend. It means you will need to do what the “pricking” in your heart says you should do, and not wait until everything is perfect in your life–won’t happen. We have to “go to the edge of the light”, and show our faith by acting on the promptings we have received.

 

[dianaiad]

Vicki Monica,
I’ve been a Mormon for 54 years (happily so), and have never been taught that “Catholics worship statues”–not once. So I guess since I lived in at least 12 different wards besides my mission, I have more experience than you do, but perhaps you lived in a place where some people thought that.

My statement on this thread was my personal opinion, based on having experienced some of the Latin culture who seemed to show more reverence to pictures on their walls than seemed to be proper, but that was my opinion. I didn’t mean any of them “worship” statues.

I’ve been a Mormon for 60 years, and I’ve never been taught that either. Come to think of it, I don’t think that Catholic belief has been addressed in any fashion in any meeting I’ve ever had.

 

[TheosisM]

Yes, Parker, I’m looking forward to what God has in store. I know where I’d like to be (at Jesus’ feet listening to Him speak) but I’m not quite sure if getting there is probable and what path to take. I suppose that, like Socrates, I’m the object of ridicule of some. Having my head lifted to heaven and what will come, I tend to not watch where I’m going, and foolishly stumble and fall.

“You’ll never get there,” both Catholics and Protestants tell me (ironically, I suppose, for they tend not to agree on so much but are unanimous in condemning me for my indecision)! And I suppose they are both right in shaking their heads and rolling their eyes and jeering at me, for I was once on the road to the highest heaven (or so Evangelicals told me) until I started asking questions of Catholics. In answering my questions, Catholics caused me to see that perhaps some important beliefs I used to believe might not be true. My discussions with Catholics have lead me off the road to heaven, Evangelicals tell me. And if I don’t turn back soon, I’m damned for sure.

Catholics, on the other hand, tell me I’m better off for having left the road of lies, but still they chastise me for not committing myself to what they say is the truth. But even though I’m sure that I’m not sure what the truth is any more, I’m still not sure that that of which they are so sure is the truth I’m looking for.

So I’ve stumbled off the path of Evangelicalism and walked right into a big oak tree and fallen on my kiester! And that’s where you find me, Parker, parked right here at a fork in the road of my life rubbing my sore nose and arse and wondering which way to go. To the left is the road Evangelicals warn me to get back on. To the right is the Catholic road, which they tell me is the oldest and most trusted way to God. I’ve meet a lot of folks passing me going down either way. Then there is your road, down the middle of the two, and I’m awfully glad you’ve stopped on your journey a moment to tell me where you believe it will lead you and why you are so confident of the way you’ve chosen. For I’m afraid that I’m not confident which way to go at all.

Spockrates,

The important thing for you to do at this point is to read the Bible, pray, and research for yourself, and then compare that with what others are telling you, including Catholics, Mormons, Evangelicals, and any other groups that you have been interested in (I believe I noticed that you found the Jehovah’s Witnesses fascinating as well). You have to now find out where God is leading you to. This is what we tell candidates that are in RCIA. It is a time of discernment, and realizing God’s call to the true Gospel that has been on this earth always. Some may not be ready to accept it at that time, while others do. It is all up to you.

We don’t just believe Catholicism because it is “oldest”, since I personally see the Orthodox Church (and the Oriental Orthodox churches) as having claims to that designation as well. In Catholicism, the full expression of the Gospel is found, right down to the primacy of Peter and his successors, which even the Orthodox recognize, but broke away from (from our perspective) for various reasons. We believe that the Body of Christ, the Church, has always been on this earth, with God’s authority, the priesthood, continuously blessing our lives since it was established by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ will always be with us, and so too has His Body always been here, as well as His power through the priesthood. Jesus Christ is also present with us in a special way: the Eucharist. The Eucharist not only is truly His body and blood (as the Bible and the early Christians believed), but symbolizes our unity in His body, a unity that has always existed, never taken away.

And it’s this unity that is important in Catholicism. You not only worship God with your fellow earthly saints, but the Heavenly saints and angels as well. This reality is very important in Catholicism, and you will notice this at every Mass, Vespers, Divine Liturgy, etc, in the prayers we pray, the icons and statues surrounding you, the symbolism of the incense (which you can read about in the Bible), etc. You can not only ask your fellow Christian on earth to pray for you, but you can also ask your fellow Christian in Heaven to pray for you. It is this reality, of the Body of Christ, the Church, transcending this earth, allowing you to ask departed faithful to join you in prayer, united in Jesus Christ and symbolized in His body and blood, the Eucharist, that is simply not found in most other churches.

So, please research and pray as much as you can Spockrates. You will find that God will lead you where you need to be. I believe that the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is only found in the Church He established, which never was taken away from the earth or lost its priesthood authority from God, never had to be restored (and this is important, because you should look into what others (whether LDS, JW, SDA, Churches of Christ, etc) are claiming has been restored, and whether it existed in the ancient Church, to discern if this is an actual ‘restoring’ of something that existed previously), and transcends the bounds of this earth, united in Jesus Christ.

Please PM me with any questions you have on your journey.

 

[Jay53]

Here’s what I still don’t understand regarding my OP. And perhaps this has already been addressed, but I guess I still need some clarification because it still is not making sense to me. A Mormon on another thread gave all of these quotes which supposedly support the belief that God has flesh and bones:

God created man after His image and likeness:
“26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Gen 1:26-27)

Abraham often spoke with the Lord in person:
“And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.” (Gen 18:33)

Jacob spoke with God face to face:
“And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”(Gen 32:30)

Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy elders saw God:
“9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.”(Ex 24:9-10)

God has fingers:
“And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.”

Moses spoke with God face to face as a friend:
“And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.”(Ex 33:11)

Moses saw the Lord’s back parts:
“22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.”(Ex 33:22-23)

Christ is in the express image of God:
“1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”(Heb 1:1-3)
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5961599

What I don’t understand is the fact that all of these quotes from the Old Testament would have been part of the Jewish faith and heritage. Jewish people today clearly do not believe that God has a body of flesh and bones. Is it the Mormon contention then that the Jewish faith also underwent some sort of “Great Apostasy” where the “correct” belief in God’s physical (human) body was somehow lost?

 

[ParkerD]

Here’s what I still don’t understand regarding my OP. And perhaps this has already been addressed, but I guess I still need some clarification because it still is not making sense to me. A Mormon on another thread gave all of these quotes which supposedly support the belief that God has flesh and bones:

What I don’t understand is the fact that all of these quotes from the Old Testament would have been part of the Jewish faith and heritage. Jewish people today clearly do not believe that God has a body of flesh and bones. Is it the Mormon contention then that the Jewish faith also underwent some sort of “Great Apostasy” where the “correct” belief in God’s physical (human) body was somehow lost?

Jay53,
It would seem clear from Christ’s teachings that He was telling the Jewish leaders and the Pharisees and the Sadducees that they had strayed from what the prophets had taught, and thus it would be correct to say that they were also in a state of having strayed from pure, true doctrine–expressed by the word “apostasy” as long as it is understood to mean this kind of straying. That would be why they could not even conceive of believing that Christ was the Son of God.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
It would seem clear from Christ’s teachings that He was telling the Jewish leaders and the Pharisees and the Sadducees that they had strayed from what the prophets had taught, and thus it would be correct to say that they were also in a state of having strayed from pure, true doctrine–expressed by the word “apostasy” as long as it is understood to mean this kind of straying. That would be why they could not even conceive of believing that Christ was the Son of God.

OK. Is there any evidence of this major shifting in doctrine - or is this just based on the fact that Joseph Smith says that the Mormon belief is the correct doctrine. I’m thinking that there should be some writings or evidence of a shift in the belief of the nature of God. This is a major shift in doctrine.

I guess I’m just finding it hard to believe that the early Jewish people believed God had a body of flesh and bones, then somehow the thinking shifted to not believing this, Jesus supposedly restored this thinking, but the Jewish people didn’t accept it, the Apostles and early church did, but then somehow the church shifted again to go back to the heretical thinking.

Does anyone know if there are any early Jewish writings expounding on the doctrine of God having flesh and bones. Joseph Smith had no problem writing his teaching down clearly, so I’m thinking there must have been some other writings from back then to affirm this belief. (Other than the scriptures already cited that obviously are not interpreted in the same way Joseph Smith has interpreted them.) I’m thinking more along the lines of the letters and doctrines that the Church has from those such as St. Iranaeus, St. Justin Martyr, etc., but from Jewish leaders.

Thanks.

 

[kikkichan]

ParkerD,

… Is it the Mormon contention then that the Jewish faith also underwent some sort of “Great Apostasy” where the “correct” belief in God’s physical (human) body was somehow lost?

Jay53,
It would seem clear from Christ’s teachings that He was telling the Jewish leaders and the Pharisees and the Sadducees that they had strayed from what the prophets had taught, and thus it would be correct to say that they were also in a state of having strayed from pure, true doctrine–expressed by the word “apostasy” as long as it is understood to mean this kind of straying. That would be why they could not even conceive of believing that Christ was the Son of God.

ParkerD,

I think you point out valid issues about the Pharisees and the Sadducees of having strayed, especially when they seem obsessed about the letter of the law and seem to completely miss the spirit of the law. (Pun intended)

Is there anything specific to the Jews having believed that heavenly Father has flesh and bones?

thanks,
-kc​

A favorite challenge to the pharisees:

24 And the Pharisees said to him, ‘Look, why are they doing something on the Sabbath day that is forbidden?’
25 And he replied, ‘Have you never read what David did in his time of need when he and his followers were hungry-
26 how he went into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the loaves of the offering which only the priests are allowed to eat, and how he also gave some to the men with him?’
27 And he said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath;
28 so the Son of man is master even of the Sabbath.’

 

[Jay53]

Also, unless I haven’t read closely enough, I’m not finding any evidence of a heretical sect to the early Church - in opposition of either belief, i.e. The Church condemning those who believe that God the Father has flesh and bones as heretics or the other way, The Church condemning those who do believe that as heretics. This would lead me to believe that there weren’t many, if any, people back then who held this actual belief.

catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp

If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[Jay53]

OK, I did find one group:

Anthropomorphites (Audians)
A sect of Christians that arose in the fourth century in Syria and extended into Scythia, sometimes called Audians, from their founder, Audius. Taking the text of Genesis, i, 27, literally, Audius held that God has a human form. The error was so gross, and, to use St. Jerome’s expression (Epist. vi, Ad Pammachium), so absolutely senseless, that it showed no vitality. Towards the end of the century it appeared among some bodies of African Christians. The Fathers who wrote against it dismiss it almost contemptuously. In the time of Cyril of Alexandria, there were some anthropomorphites among the Egyptian monks. He composed a short refutation of their error, which he attributed to extreme ignorance. (Adv. Anthrop. in P.G., LXXVI.) Concerning the charges of anthropomorphism preferred against Melito, Tertullian, Origen, and Lactantius, see the respective articles. The error was revived in northern Italy during the tenth century, but was effectually suppressed by the bishops, notably by the learned Ratherius, Bishop of Verona.
newadvent.org/cathen/01558c.htm

But, this group didn’t appear to have been founded until the 4th century. I’m curious if any of the Mormons here have heard of Audius or if he/his teachings is/are mentioned in any Mormon history/documents. ???

 

[Jay53]

How does the belief that God has a body reconcile with certain Biblical verses.

Anthropomorphites maintain their doctrine in defiance of verses, such as John 4:24, where Jesus teaches us: “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” This means God has no body, because a spirit is, by nature, an incorporeal being. As Jesus tells us elsewhere, “a spirit has not flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39). catholic.com/library/God_Has_No_Body.asp

 

[ParkerD]

OK, I did find one group:

But, this group didn’t appear to have been founded until the 4th century. I’m curious if any of the Mormons here have heard of Audius or if he/his teachings is/are mentioned in any Mormon history/documents. ???

Hi, Jay53,
I’m not speaking for anyone but myself on that question, but I haven’t read or heard of them, though I’m not surprised to read that there was such a person who had such a group of followers about that teaching.

 

[ParkerD]

OK. Is there any evidence of this major shifting in doctrine - or is this just based on the fact that Joseph Smith says that the Mormon belief is the correct doctrine. I’m thinking that there should be some writings or evidence of a shift in the belief of the nature of God. This is a major shift in doctrine.

I guess I’m just finding it hard to believe that the early Jewish people believed God had a body of flesh and bones, then somehow the thinking shifted to not believing this, Jesus supposedly restored this thinking, but the Jewish people didn’t accept it, the Apostles and early church did, but then somehow the church shifted again to go back to the heretical thinking.

Does anyone know if there are any early Jewish writings expounding on the doctrine of God having flesh and bones. Joseph Smith had no problem writing his teaching down clearly, so I’m thinking there must have been some other writings from back then to affirm this belief. (Other than the scriptures already cited that obviously are not interpreted in the same way Joseph Smith has interpreted them.) I’m thinking more along the lines of the letters and doctrines that the Church has from those such as St. Iranaeus, St. Justin Martyr, etc., but from Jewish leaders.

Thanks.

Jay53 and Kikkichan,
I think you have asked some reasonable and insightful questions with your posts.

I’m not a student of Jewish teachings or history other than using the Bible itself as the source, but I doubt that there would be Jewish leaders or historians who wrote of such a belief, although perhaps there may be allusions to that in the Dead Sea Scrolls–I don’t know.

You may be familiar that the Book of Mormon recounts that there was a much earlier group who came to the Americas before the groups who were led to leave Jerusalem just before Babylon conquered the Southern kingdom of Judah. This earlier group was led by two brothers at the time of the tower of Babel, and one of these brothers was a prophet with a great amount of faith. He had such faith that during an experience of receiving revelation, he “saw the finger of the Lord” (Ether 3:8) when the Lord was asked to touch some molten translucent stones to give them the power to be a source of light for the interior of some “barges” that were to be used for travel across the oceans.

This man asked the Lord to “show thyself unto me,” because of his remarkable faith and willingness to believe what the Lord had to teach him. His initial reaction to seeing the finger of the Lord (who was the pre-mortal Jesus Christ) was his statement that “I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.” He had seen that Christ would “take upon me flesh and blood…”

I would respond to your question that this experience shows that the belief that God has the form in Spirit of a man, is probably not going to be found in Jewish history or teachings, nor earlier history or teachings, in a way that is more definitive than the experiences you already noted (that were discussed earlier on this thread) that Moses had. It also shows why–that God reveals knowledge about Himself only to a person who has the kind of faith that is required, and it is very exceptional and unusual. It seems to be reserved to be dependent on the faith of the person.

 

[ParkerD]

How does the belief that God has a body reconcile with certain Biblical verses.

Jay53,
If you’ll think about the following with respect to John 4:24 and Luke 24:39, I’m hoping there are some insights to be learned:

Jesus was talking with the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well in John 4. She had said “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” (v. 20) This statement by her shows that her experience and belief was that where one worships ties to the worship itself as to being acceptable to God. Jesus responds that “the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (v. 23-24)

Those verses show that Jesus is teaching an unfamiliar concept about worship of God “in spirit and in truth.” He says the time “now is” for that teaching. He differentiates between needing to be in a certain place to worship, and needing to have an internal relationship with God that approaches Him “in spirit and in truth” which means that our spirit needs to be in communication one-on-one with His Spirit and needs to be truthful in that spiritual communication, with no holding back or holding to forms of external worship. Worship should be an experience of the spirit.

I wouldn’t say that verse 24 demonstrates conclusively that Jesus is saying that God the Father doesn’t have a corporeal body, since the resurrected Father in Heaven would be both a Spirit Person and a Physical Person. Jesus emphasized that although not physically seen, our spirit (and the Samaritan woman’s spirit) needs to have the kind of faith and belief that brings our spirit into a relationship with the Father’s Spirit that is intimately worshipful. He emphasized that this kind of relationship is both possible and necessary for true worship, even though we are not going to outwardly see God or be in a place that we think has some special importance for worshiping. Our core spiritual self needs to be involved in this kind of worship. We can do it because our spirit has a direct personal relationship with God’s Spirit that we will feel when we worship in that way.

As to the whole idea of God being in the form of man, it seems to me that when the apostles “supposed they had seen a spirit” when Jesus visited them soon after His resurrection (Luke 24:37), and He said that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have,” that they are being taught something they didn’t understand about both the concept of the resurrection and the concept that the Son of God, truly in their presence as God, has flesh and bones in the resurrection. Jesus had taught “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,” and now He was teaching that a resurrected Being (He Himself) has flesh and bones.

It seems to me that Jesus’ repeated appearances as a physical Being who eats with the apostles and could be touched (“handle me and see”), was partly to have them understand firmly and unequivocally that a Perfected, resurrected Person has a perfected Body, and that they would have this same opportunity because of Him, for each of them to be resurrected with a perfected Body. It seems evident that it was something they had not understood before, so Jesus was teaching something beyond what they knew from any of their previous traditions. Again, as with the brother of Jared experience with seeing the finger of the Lord, it seemed to be that this teaching was dependent on the faith of those selected to see and feel and know. Those who would have faith would come to understand things about God that those without faith would not understand or have reason to believe.

 

[Jay53]

Parker, I appreciate your responses to my questions. I must say, though, that I’m a little disappointed with your assertion in two of your posts that those who don’t have enough faith won’t understand the different beliefs that you have; as if those who don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and don’t believe his contradictions and misinterpretations of Scripture just don’t have enough faith in God as opposed to thinking that maybe they do have enough faith in God and have been able, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, to discern the fallacies in Joseph Smith’s teachings.

But, as always I appreciate the insight into your beliefs.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I appreciate your responses to my questions. I must say, though, that I’m a little disappointed with your assertion in two of your posts that those who don’t have enough faith won’t understand the different beliefs that you have; as if those who don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and don’t believe his contradictions and misinterpretations of Scripture just don’t have enough faith in God as opposed to thinking that maybe they do have enough faith in God and have been able, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, to discern the fallacies in Joseph Smith’s teachings.

But, as always I appreciate the insight into your beliefs.

Hi, Jay53,
Thanks for reading my responses to your questions. I will add two points of clarification:

1–I don’t rely on Joseph Smith’s testimony for knowledge of the kind of Being God is. As far as I’m concerned, Jesus and John and Stephen and Moses gave enough insight into the kind of Being God is, and the Holy Spirit has confirmed those truths to my soul so that I know independent of anyone else’s perceptions or beliefs or traditions, that what they (that is, Jesus and John and Stephen and Moses) spoke or wrote was true. Joseph Smith confirmed that what they taught was true, was true, and his is another witness, but the most important witness is the kind of witness promised by the Savior and alluded to by Him as He spoke to the Samaritan woman–communication directly from God to my spirit, because He can do that and does do that.

2–That is not to say a person such as myself has greater faith than a person who believes differently, but perhaps they haven’t asked such a question of God, and without asking the question about that particular thing, they would not receive an answer to a question they never ask. Also, if one does ask but brings a set of doubts and traditions to the intimate relaltionship they are asked to have with God, then they will walk away with those same doubts and traditions, because God will never sweep aside agency in order to convince someone. That is not how He operates with humankind. It would not be in their best interest, and He will always act in the best interest of each individual person.

Jay, I sincerely wish you all the best. Have a great day! I have no doubt that you have a sincerely personal relationship with God that brings you great joy and peace, and wish you all the best as you continue that relationship.

 

[Jay53]

Hi, Jay53,
Thanks for reading my responses to your questions. I will add two points of clarification:

1–I don’t rely on Joseph Smith’s testimony for knowledge of the kind of Being God is. As far as I’m concerned, Jesus and John and Stephen and Moses gave enough insight into the kind of Being God is, and the Holy Spirit has confirmed those truths to my soul so that I know independent of anyone else’s perceptions or beliefs or traditions, that what they (that is, Jesus and John and Stephen and Moses) spoke or wrote was true. Joseph Smith confirmed that what they taught was true, was true, and his is another witness, but the most important witness is the kind of witness promised by the Savior and alluded to by Him as He spoke to the Samaritan woman–communication directly from God to my spirit, because He can do that and does do that.

2–That is not to say a person such as myself has greater faith than a person who believes differently, but perhaps they haven’t asked such a question of God, and without asking the question about that particular thing, they would not receive an answer to a question they never ask. Also, if one does ask but brings a set of doubts and traditions to the intimate relaltionship they are asked to have with God, then they will walk away with those same doubts and traditions, because God will never sweep aside agency in order to convince someone. That is not how He operates with humankind. It would not be in their best interest, and He will always act in the best interest of each individual person.

Jay, I sincerely wish you all the best. Have a great day! I have no doubt that you have a sincerely personal relationship with God that brings you great joy and peace, and wish you all the best as you continue that relationship.

I’ll have to disagree with you here, because Jesus, John, Stephen and Moses DID NOT teach that God is a physical man with flesh and bones. That is just the interpretation Joseph Smith gave to those passages of Scripture. I can see how the Mormons can take that interpretation *if *they believe Joseph Smith to be true. Can you also see that if Joseph Smith is NOT a prophet, then those passages are not as clear cut as you would like them to be? That interpretation is NOT what the Apostles and their successors, nor any of the Jewish people taught through the ages. That was the information I was trying to find and the point I was trying to make - there is no other evidence that this belief is correct outside of the Mormon Church (other than possibly some pagan ‘religions’ ???). The first mention I can find of this belief is in the 4th century - well after the Apostles and their successors had established God’s Church. And the Church was not hesitant at all in denouncing this belief.

I honestly don’t know how to take your communication with God confirming this specific belief. Obviously you are entitled to that, and I’m sure you also have a personal relationship with Him, but I have honestly had the opposite confirmation - that the Catholic Church contains God’s fullness of truth, and that He is truly present in the Eucharist. If the Mormon Church was more similar to the Catholic Church except for this particular belief I suppose I would be more inclined to consider it; But considering my own personal confirmation in the truth of the Catholic Church and the fact that Mormons believe in things contrary to the Catholic Church, including (but not limited to ), a “Heavenly Mother” who is supposedly married to God, claiming that polygamy was once ordained by God, and most importantly they do not have the Eucharist (complete with transsubstantiation). The Eucharist is probably the biggest issue for me because Jesus, without a doubt, gave us His Body and Blood - not bread and water. Eucharistic Adoration is a very important part of my life and, as I’m sure I mentioned before, that is where I speak to God “face to face” about all of this. (And no, that doesn’t mean I see God the Father with a physical body. ) I am truly in the presence of God at Adoration - no question about it, no doubt.

I must say I have not asked the specific question of God about Him having a physical body, but that is mostly because 1) I had never even heard of this belief before coming here - never even a hint that Scripture could be interpreted that way and 2) deep in my soul I know that this is a heretical teaching - I actually find it physically offensive to my senses to even consider that this could be true. I actually think that is the Holy Spirit confirming to me that it is not true. As I mentioned above, though, I have talked to God about His Church, and have received a confirmation of His Truth.

Thanks for discussing this with me, Parker. Hope you have a great day too!

 

[ParkerD]

I’ll have to disagree with you here, because Jesus, John, Stephen and Moses DID NOT teach that God is a physical man with flesh and bones. That is just the interpretation Joseph Smith gave to those passages of Scripture. I can see how the Mormons can take that interpretation *if *they believe Joseph Smith to be true. Can you also see that if Joseph Smith is NOT a prophet, then those passages are not as clear cut as you would like them to be? That interpretation is NOT what the Apostles and their successors, nor any of the Jewish people taught through the ages. That was the information I was trying to find and the point I was trying to make - there is no other evidence that this belief is correct outside of the Mormon Church (other than possibly some pagan ‘religions’ ???). The first mention I can find of this belief is in the 4th century - well after the Apostles and their successors had established God’s Church. And the Church was not hesitant at all in denouncing this belief.

I honestly don’t know how to take your communication with God confirming this specific belief. Obviously you are entitled to that, and I’m sure you also have a personal relationship with Him, but I have honestly had the opposite confirmation - that the Catholic Church contains God’s fullness of truth, and that He is truly present in the Eucharist. If the Mormon Church was more similar to the Catholic Church except for this particular belief I suppose I would be more inclined to consider it; But considering my own personal confirmation in the truth of the Catholic Church and the fact that Mormons believe in things contrary to the Catholic Church, including (but not limited to ), a “Heavenly Mother” who is supposedly married to God, claiming that polygamy was once ordained by God, and most importantly they do not have the Eucharist (complete with transsubstantiation). The Eucharist is probably the biggest issue for me because Jesus, without a doubt, gave us His Body and Blood - not bread and water. Eucharistic Adoration is a very important part of my life and, as I’m sure I mentioned before, that is where I speak to God “face to face” about all of this. (And no, that doesn’t mean I see God the Father with a physical body. ) I am truly in the presence of God at Adoration - no question about it, no doubt.

I must say I have not asked the specific question of God about Him having a physical body, but that is mostly because 1) I had never even heard of this belief before coming here - never even a hint that Scripture could be interpreted that way and 2) deep in my soul I know that this is a heretical teaching - I actually find it physically offensive to my senses to even consider that this could be true. I actually think that is the Holy Spirit confirming to me that it is not true. As I mentioned above, though, I have talked to God about His Church, and have received a confirmation of His Truth.

Thanks for discussing this with me, Parker. Hope you have a great day too!

Jay53,
These are important issues for each of us, I’m sure. The idea of a “heretical teaching” being “physically offensive” to one’s senses seems to me that, as I noted before, God does not sweep away a person’s agency by a kind of “physically offensive” feeling.

God is an extremely positive Being, with extremely positive interaction with His children–lifting, building, loving tenderly and with great kindness, whispering into the soul with peace and comfort and assurance. He would not “chain us down” with “physically offensive” feelings even about things that are wrong. That would be contrary to His nature.

Again, my understanding of the relevant Biblical scriptures is first-hand, not second-hand, not from Joseph Smith or anyone else. I think the example of the Savior Himself and His resurrection with a Perfect body and His statement, “He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father…” (John 14:9) combined with the witness from the Holy Spirit as I have noted, provide 100% assurance and peace. That knowledge, of course, becomes important when considering John’s revelatory teaching through his vision about inheriting “all things” and inheriting a “joint throne” with the Lord, Jesus Christ and understanding what John was really saying.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
These are important issues for each of us, I’m sure. The idea of a “heretical teaching” being “physically offensive” to one’s senses seems to me that, as I noted before, God does not sweep away a person’s agency by a kind of “physically offensive” feeling.

God is an extremely positive Being, with extremely positive interaction with His children–lifting, building, loving tenderly and with great kindness, whispering into the soul with peace and comfort and assurance. He would not “chain us down” with “physically offensive” feelings even about things that are wrong. That would be contrary to His nature.

Again, my understanding of the relevant Biblical scriptures is first-hand, not second-hand, not from Joseph Smith or anyone else. I think the example of the Savior Himself and His resurrection with a Perfect body and His statement, “He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father…” (John 14:9) combined with the witness from the Holy Spirit as I have noted, provide 100% assurance and peace. That knowledge, of course, becomes important when considering John’s revelatory teaching through his vision about inheriting “all things” and inheriting a “joint throne” with the Lord, Jesus Christ and understanding what John was really saying.

OK. Like I said, I think you’re misinterpreting it and reading into it what you want it to mean based on the rest of your beliefs.

Jesus’ statement “He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father” to me is clearly a statement only of Jesus’ divinity and the fact that they are One, an affirmation of the Trinity - not anything to do with an actual physical body. (Unless you are prepared to say that they are also physically identical twins. )

And I do have a “100% assurance and peace” when it comes to my beliefs. I think you’re partially wrong that God would not give us offensive feelings about stuff that is wrong, The offensive feeling may not be specifically from God, but may be simply because the belief/action/situation is from the Evil One and not of God. I get the same offensive feeling when reading passages from the Quran. But I do agree that God will give us peace and assurance about His Truth. Absolutely!

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
These are important issues for each of us, I’m sure. The idea of a “heretical teaching” being “physically offensive” to one’s senses seems to me that, as I noted before, God does not sweep away a person’s agency by a kind of “physically offensive” feeling.

God is an extremely positive Being, with extremely positive interaction with His children–lifting, building, loving tenderly and with great kindness, whispering into the soul with peace and comfort and assurance. He would not “chain us down” with “physically offensive” feelings even about things that are wrong. That would be contrary to His nature.

Again, my understanding of the relevant Biblical scriptures is first-hand, not second-hand, not from Joseph Smith or anyone else. I think the example of the Savior Himself and His resurrection with a Perfect body and His statement, “He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father…” (John 14:9) combined with the witness from the Holy Spirit as I have noted, provide 100% assurance and peace. That knowledge, of course, becomes important when considering John’s revelatory teaching through his vision about inheriting “all things” and inheriting a “joint throne” with the Lord, Jesus Christ and understanding what John was really saying.

And, I also believe John 14:9 takes place *before *the Crucifixion and Resurrection, so Jesus does not even have His glorified body as of yet. So this would not lead the disciples to believe in God the Father having a Glorified, Resurrected Body. It would lead them to believe He is simply human.

 

[ParkerD]

And, I also believe John 14:9 takes place *before *the Crucifixion and Resurrection, so Jesus does not even have His glorified body as of yet. So this would not lead the disciples to believe in God the Father having a Glorified, Resurrected Body. It would lead them to believe He is simply human.

Hi, Jay53,
Yes, indeed, John 14:9 occurs before the resurrection of Christ, but since Christ really was “God with us” and was perfect, it was an appropriate teaching. I think it is likely that Christ looks physically like His Father, as well, so that would make that verse make even more sense when viewed from a human perspective.

That being said, there would be a difference in that in His condition before His resurrection, Christ would have been visibly radiant and loving, but not have had the glorified countenance of His perfect resurrected body, so you do make a valid point from that standpoint. But John also says in John 1:14 "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) " which is significant in understanding how the apostles perceived Christ to be–a Person of glory, even as He walked among them.