Clarification on Mormon Belief

[spockrates]

Hi, and thanks for your honest inquiry. First, forgive me for having joined this discussion rather late.

Better to join late than not at all, Zerinus!

For this reason I have not read through all the thread, so I am not familiar with all the exchanges you have had with other LDS. But to answer your question, Joseph Smith was a young boy (aged 14) who was confused by the many contending (mainly Protestant) churches which had created a kind of religious revival in the community he lived, and wanted to know which one of the contending sects were right. After reading James 1:5 in the Bible, he felt inspired to inquire of God to know which church was right, so he knew which one to join.

What a coincidence: That verse is something of a daily prayer of mine!

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

(James 1:5)

It’s somewhat of a comfort to me that God gives wisdom generously without finding fault (for there is much fault in me to find, I’m afraid).

To cut a long story short, as a result of that prayer he had a personal encounter with God in which the Father and the Son appeared to him as two separate personages, and advised him not to join any of them, but that at some future date the fullness of the truth would be revealed to him. Again to cut another long story short, this led eventually to another encounter with an angel who revealed to him the plates on which the Book of Mormon was written, and he was commanded to translate it into English by the gift and power of God. That is how the Book of Mormon came to be. Subsequently he had many more revelations and encounters with heavenly messengers who instructed him how to organize the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I cannot imagine what that experience would be like. He must have been overwhelmed by the attention God gave him.

So in answer to your question of how you can know that it is all true, the best answer is though the study of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is a book of scripture just like the Bible, and the main purpose of its revelation is to be a new witness to Jesus Christ, and a witness to the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith in the last days. Anybody who studies the Book of Mormon sincerely and impartially, with a genuine desire to know of its truth, will know by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true. That is the promise that it contained within the book. So that is the answer to your question. Study the Book of Mormon, and you will know for yourself whether it is true or not.

Thank you, Zerinus! Yes, that makes sense to me. Before I can commit the act of obedience of becoming a Latter Day Saint, I must accept the truth that the Book of Mormon is divine, rather than human, in origin.

 

[spockrates]

So, then, the truth that the Book of Mormon is true is one cause of being obedient in becoming a Latter Day Saint.

Yet, I suppose this is not the only act of obedience that will get me there. For, I suppose I could read the Book of Mormon and then refuse to accept its truth. Accepting the truth of the Book of Mormon, then, appears to be an act of obedience that even precedes the act of obedience of becoming a Mormon. Do you agree, Zerinus?

 

[TheosisM]

If it is true that truth precedes obedience, then what is the truth that precedes the act of obedience of becoming a Latter Day Saint? That is, what is the essential truth that, once believed, will cause me to see converting to Mormonism the obvious decision?

One of the main things that you will have to come to terms with is whether there was a Great Apostasy, a loss of priesthood authority by the Church, that the Church became so corrupted, false doctrines, etc., that it’s priesthood authority was removed.

 

[Marie5890]

One of the main things that you will have to come to terms with is whether there was a Great Apostasy, a loss of priesthood authority by the Church, that the Church became so corrupted, false doctrines, etc., that it’s priesthood authority was removed.

I agree with that. For that is the foundation that Joseph Smith said sprang all the rest. That when he asked which church is true

He was told none of them and join none of them.

For Mormons, it comes down to whether or not there was a great apostasy, hence the belief that a restoration was needed.

When I was LDS there was something of a tongue-in-cheek joke (with a hint of reason tossed in) that either the LDS Church was the true church or the Catholic Church was.

That all others were just off-shoots of those two…

It came down to which one held the actually authority of Christ to act in His Holy Name.

(Now dont everyone get in a tissy over this…It was NOT taught as dogma in the LDS Church…It was just one of those cultural thoughts that would spring up due to the personal opinions that people had when it came to “who was giving the actual authority to act in Christ’s Name”)

 

[zerinus]

So, then, the truth that the Book of Mormon is true is one cause of being obedient in becoming a Latter Day Saint.

Yet, I suppose this is not the only act of obedience that will get me there. For, I suppose I could read the Book of Mormon and then refuse to accept its truth. Accepting the truth of the Book of Mormon, then, appears to be an act of obedience that even precedes the act of obedience of becoming a Mormon. Do you agree, Zerinus?

Well, when you have read the Book of Mormon, it is the Holy Spirit that will witness to you that it is true; and once you have obtained that spiritual witness, you will know what you need to do. There is no more arguments after that.

 

[spockrates]

One of the main things that you will have to come to terms with is whether there was a Great Apostasy, a loss of priesthood authority by the Church, that the Church became so corrupted, false doctrines, etc., that it’s priesthood authority was removed.

Yes, I suppose you are correct, TM. In fact, I think I’ve heard that Joseph Smith was told the Church ceased to exist, and that his mission was to restore what was lost. Do you think this is an impossibility? If so, please tell me why.

 

[spockrates]

Well, when you have read the Book of Mormon, it is the Holy Spirit that will witness to you that it is true; and once you have obtained that spiritual witness, you will know what you need to do. There is no more arguments after that.

Please tell me how the Holy Spirit witnessed to you, Zerinus.

 

[TheosisM]

Yes, I suppose you are correct, TM. In fact, I think I’ve heard that Joseph Smith was told the Church ceased to exist, and that his mission was to restore what was lost. Do you think this is an impossibility? If so, please tell me why.

Yes, I personally believe that that is an impossibility, and I do not believe that there was anything to be restored, especially when I look at what is claimed to be restored doctrines by various churches, not only the LDS Church. You can read some of my views in this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5963208&postcount=143

You can also check out the thread on why the early church failed as well for some of my posts. I see no Biblical basis for a Great Apostasy (instead I see a very strong basis for apostasies from the Church, and not an apostasy of the Church). I don’t think that some of the unique Mormon beliefs are as heretical as some may think (some of these unique beliefs and ideas are more of a problem for Protestants than Catholics/Orthodox).

In addition to reading the Bible and praying about what you read, you should also do research into the early Church in other sources. The writings of the early Church fathers are very good for this purpose, specifically the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Many apologists from various churches cite them, and I recently read a book by a Mormon church authority that made extensive use of their writings. You should do this for yourself and compare it to the claims of those churches you are feeling drawn to.

 

[zerinus]

Please tell me how the Holy Spirit witnessed to you, Zerinus.

It is an experience that is hard to describe. You will recognize it when you have experienced it. The witness of the Spirit is not something that can be shared or transmitted to someone else. Everyone must experience it for himself. It is like the oil in the lamps in the parable of the ten virgins. Those who had more oil couldn’t share it with those who didn’t. Each had to obtain it independently for themselves. A spiritual testimony is like that. Everyone who has it must obtain it independently for himself or herself. It cannot be shared, transmitted, or described to someone else.

 

[spockrates]

It is an experience that is hard to describe. You will recognize it when you have experienced it. The witness of the Spirit is not something that can be shared or transmitted to someone else. Everyone must experience it for himself. It is like the oil in the lamps in the parable of the ten virgins. Those who had more oil couldn’t share it with those who didn’t. Each had to obtain it independently for themselves. A spiritual testimony is like that. Everyone who has it must obtain it independently for himself or herself. It cannot be shared, transmitted, or described to someone else.

Fascinating! I don’t believe I’ve ever had an experience I cannot describe. I’d like to know more about this unknowable thing that I cannot possibly know until I know it. Are you saying that the truth (at least the truth I seek, which is whether the Book of Mormon is true) cannot possibly be known, but can only be experienced?

 

[spockrates]

Yes, I personally believe that that is an impossibility, and I do not believe that there was anything to be restored, especially when I look at what is claimed to be restored doctrines by various churches, not only the LDS Church. You can read some of my views in this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5963208&postcount=143

You can also check out the thread on why the early church failed as well for some of my posts. I see no Biblical basis for a Great Apostasy (instead I see a very strong basis for apostasies from the Church, and not an apostasy of the Church). I don’t think that some of the unique Mormon beliefs are as heretical as some may think (some of these unique beliefs and ideas are more of a problem for Protestants than Catholics/Orthodox).

In addition to reading the Bible and praying about what you read, you should also do research into the early Church in other sources. The writings of the early Church fathers are very good for this purpose, specifically the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Many apologists from various churches cite them, and I recently read a book by a Mormon church authority that made extensive use of their writings. You should do this for yourself and compare it to the claims of those churches you are feeling drawn to.

TM:

Perhaps it will be helpful for me if you were to give me a Bible verse that makes the point that the Church will never cease to be. (If you don’t know the exact chapter and verse, that’s OK. I’m sure your reciting the words will bring the verse to my mind.)

 

[spockrates]

I agree with that. For that is the foundation that Joseph Smith said sprang all the rest. That when he asked which church is true

He was told none of them and join none of them.

For Mormons, it comes down to whether or not there was a great apostasy, hence the belief that a restoration was needed.

When I was LDS there was something of a tongue-in-cheek joke (with a hint of reason tossed in) that either the LDS Church was the true church or the Catholic Church was.

That all others were just off-shoots of those two…

It came down to which one held the actually authority of Christ to act in His Holy Name.

(Now dont everyone get in a tissy over this…It was NOT taught as dogma in the LDS Church…It was just one of those cultural thoughts that would spring up due to the personal opinions that people had when it came to “who was giving the actual authority to act in Christ’s Name”)

Hey, M5:

Perhaps you can think of a reason why the Church can never die?

 

[Marie5890]

A living God created His Church.

Why would He create it only to have it die off in a few years? Why would He give His Church His authority, only to withdraw it a generation or so later?

I don’t have the theological background of someone like TM, but I don’t see why a Living, Loving, All Powerful, Omniscient would establish His church only to let it die which would require Him to remove His authority, His Spirit.

He sent the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Did He call the Holy Spirit back when this so-called great apostasy happened?

IMO that would indicated He was a weak and not-all-that powerful of a God.

GOOD GRIEF!! HE over came Death itself! Shunned Satan.

He certainly had the power to ensure His Church wouldnt die off!

A great apostasy simply doesnt make sense for an All-Powerful God who over came death and was resurrected in Glory

I mean, Is He God, yes or no?!?!

Ya know???

 

[Marie5890]

(sorry for the…umm…passion… I just feel strongly that Christ really IS God. That He really IS all-powerful…That He really DID overcome all and establish His church)

I dont think He is a weak wuss…

 

[spockrates]

A living God created His Church.

Why would He create it only to have it die off in a few years? Why would He give His Church His authority, only to withdraw it a generation or so later?

I don’t have the theological background of someone like TM, but I don’t see why a Living, Loving, All Powerful, Omniscient would establish His church only to let it die which would require Him to remove His authority, His Spirit.

He sent the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Did He call the Holy Spirit back when this so-called great apostasy happened?

IMO that would indicated He was a weak and not-all-that powerful of a God.

GOOD GRIEF!! HE over came Death itself! Shunned Satan.

He certainly had the power to ensure His Church wouldnt die off!

A great apostasy simply doesnt make sense for an All-Powerful God who over came death and was resurrected in Glory

I mean, Is He God, yes or no?!?!

Ya know???

Yes, I see what you mean. It’s certainly a good argument against the Evangelical view that from 325 AD on the Church was Apostate for teaching that baptism was a requirement for salvation. According to Evangelicals I know, those who believed this were hell bound. The upshot, then, is that few were saved from hell until Luther began the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s. That God would allow so many to be damned is a hard pill for me to swallow, too!

But, in the case of the Mormon religion (is it OK to call the religion of LDS members Mormon?) those who die in ignorance of the truth are not condemned to eternal separation from God, I think. So the same argument does not appear to hold as much weight against the LDS Church.

 

[spockrates]

(sorry for the…umm…passion… I just feel strongly that Christ really IS God. That He really IS all-powerful…That He really DID overcome all and establish His church)

I dont think He is a weak wuss…

True, He IS powerful enough to MAKE anyone believe what He wants them to believe. I suppose the question is would He?

 

[TheosisM]

TM:

Perhaps it will be helpful for me if you were to give me a Bible verse that makes the point that the Church will never cease to be. (If you don’t know the exact chapter and verse, that’s OK. I’m sure your reciting the words will bring the verse to my mind.)

Probably the most cited verse is Matt 16:18. As you may have noticed in other threads, Mormons have their own interpretation of that verse that fits with their Great Apostasy theory. Other important verses in my opinion are Matt 28:20, John 14:26, John 16:13, among others. Remember, the Church is the Body of Christ, and nothing can destroy Jesus Christ, our Savior. Please read my previously linked post for more on that. The Eucharist is also important here, especially for a Catholic. If the priesthood was lost, then the Eucharist was not present on earth at all (though in the Mormon view, the Catholic/Orthodox/etc. view on the Eucharist is one of the innovations), nor were any of the other sacraments. How do you view the Eucharist (I’m not sure if you’re Catholic since I don’t know what “closet Catholic” means)?

You should also look into the verses that Mormons cite as Biblical proof of a Great Apostasy, and see if that is what they are actually referring to (an Apostasy of the Church, a loss of priesthood authority), since if you are investigating Mormonism, the burden of proof is to show that there was a Great Apostasy.

 

[spockrates]

Probably the most cited verse is Matt 16:18. As you may have noticed in other threads, Mormons have their own interpretation of that verse that fits with their Great Apostasy theory. Other important verses in my opinion are Matt 28:20, John 14:26, John 16:13, among others. Remember, the Church is the Body of Christ, and nothing can destroy Jesus Christ, our Savior. Please read my previously linked post for more on that. The Eucharist is also important here, especially for a Catholic. If the priesthood was lost, then the Eucharist was not present on earth at all (though in the Mormon view, the Catholic/Orthodox/etc. view on the Eucharist is one of the innovations), nor were any of the other sacraments. How do you view the Eucharist (I’m not sure if you’re Catholic since I don’t know what “closet Catholic” means)?

You should also look into the verses that Mormons cite as Biblical proof of a Great Apostasy, and see if that is what they are actually referring to (an Apostasy of the Church, a loss of priesthood authority), since if you are investigating Mormonism, the burden of proof is to show that there was a Great Apostasy.

Yes, that is helpful! Let’s start with a Sacred Scripture and see where God leads us:

“And I [Jesus Christ] say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

(Matthew 16:18)

I’m assuming you mean that the words, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” indicate that the Church will never cease to exist since its inception. Am I making the right assumption?

 

[TheosisM]

I strongly suggest looking at some of the verses cited by many Mormons as evidence of the Great Apostasy, and prayerfully consider them. This will help you in this endeavor. In my personal journey (and I have been interested in Mormonism for a number of years, and really considered converting earlier this year), I have been led to believe that God’s Church has always been on this earth, that the authority to act in His name has always been here, and that the sacraments, real ways that we participate in the life of Jesus Christ, have always been available for the faithful.

 

[TheosisM]

Yes, that is helpful! Let’s start with a Sacred Scripture and see where God leads us:

“And I [Jesus Christ] say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

(Matthew 16:18)

I’m assuming you mean that the words, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” indicate that the Church will never cease to exist since its inception. Am I making the right assumption?

Yes, you are correct. There are multiple interpretations of this verse (I know that you are aware of the thread on this very subject), and for me, the context provided by other verses (such as those I gave) shows that the Church as an institution, the Body of Christ, with authority from God, would never fall away, though individuals always will.