Clarification Please

[nessie238]

Well, I did not reject or wish to defer my catholic marriage, nor was I the one who was married before. My husband spoke to the parish priest at the time of his conversion and nothing was said to him. Our current parish priest is speaking with people higher up and I have not had any reason to not believe what he has told me. I can read what you are saying. I have seen it all over this forum - I told my priest In depth what I have learned here. I am not deceiving anybody. I believe my God is a forgiving God - I have been to confession.
I realise that I will not make many people happy on this forum with my opinions and beliefs. If my priest told me that We had to live as brother and sister believe me I would. He explained it to me in such a way that I could not feel guilty anymore. My anguish was lifted and I felt at peace after our prayers together. To me receiving communion is what helps me make it through trying times as this. I feel at one with Christ my Savior and have the strength to keep going.
I can read the laws - I have done. Is no one happy for me that my priest is willing to work with me and give our family unit the peace and happiness it deserves?

 

[LilyM]

Well, I did not reject or wish to defer my catholic marriage, nor was I the one who was married before. My husband spoke to the parish priest at the time of his conversion and nothing was said to him. Our current parish priest is speaking with people higher up and I have not had any reason to not believe what he has told me. I can read what you are saying. I have seen it all over this forum - I told my priest In depth what I have learned here. I am not deceiving anybody. I believe my God is a forgiving God - I have been to confession.
I realise that I will not make many people happy on this forum with my opinions and beliefs. If my priest told me that We had to live as brother and sister believe me I would. He explained it to me in such a way that I could not feel guilty anymore. My anguish was lifted and I felt at peace after our prayers together. To me receiving communion is what helps me make it through trying times as this. I feel at one with Christ my Savior and have the strength to keep going.
I can read the laws - I have done. Is no one happy for me that my priest is willing to work with me and give our family unit the peace and happiness it deserves?

So-called peace and happiness based on an untrue foundation is worthless and false. Many a hardened criminal feels peaceful and happy when committing their crimes - doesn’t mean it is right. Acting as if you are married when in the eyes of the Church your husband is married to his ex wife and so at present cannot possibly be truly married to you is a rejection of the Catholic idea of marriage. And is deceiving yourself if noone else. And the Eucharist is a privilege for those in a state of grace (and believe me I have had to refrain plenty of times when I have been in a state of sin) and not some sort of right that we can exercise however and whenever we wish.

Imagine someone told you that they had stolen a valuable necklace, gone to their priest, confessed not only that they had stolen it but had no intention of returning the necklace even though it was well within their power to do so, as they wanted to contjnue to enjoy the fruits if their sin. Is that the action of someone who was truly sorry? Or truly forgiven (since true forgiveness requires true sorrow, including a willingness to restore that which was stolen)? You have stolen something that for the time being belongs to your husband’s first wife. And show no remorse for having done so.

Now in regards your marriage - why the necessity to go through the processes you are going through, the paperwork you are going through, to regularize your marriage if there is, as you seem to feel, nothing wrong with what you have done? Do you understand that as far as the Church is concerned your husband is still very much in a valid marriage with his first wife and unless and until they declare that marriage to be invalid he can have and does have no other marriage? That no priest has the power to declare your relationship with him to be a valid marriage unless and until his first marriage is declared null?

If I thought practicing as a doctor while unlicensed was fine why would I bother becoming certified? And if a single rogue advisor was telling me I didn’t need a licence - but shoukd get one anyway - what sense would that make? And when both the law of the land and many other people say exactly the contrary, and say that I do need a licence, why on earth would I trust that rogue? What reason have I to think that that one person is above the law of the land and knows better than the legislators and all the other folks?

You do know priests as individuals are erring, fallible and human right? You know they can misunderstand and give wrong advice? Or even do so intentionally?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I agree, but I’ve seen this type of thing before.

A couple were attending Mass in our parish for a year, never receiving Communion. He had previously divorced and they had only a civil marriage in their country before military service sent him over here. Now he’d been granted a decree of nullity but they still hadn’t convalidated their marriage.

Then the K of C came calling and because of his irregular marriage situation he couldn’t join. Enter the bishop who gave them some kind of blessing and presto, they were receiving Communion and he’s KofC. No convalidation recorded and the Bishop made it clear that they had to convalidate their marriage when they returned to their country. Not even the Pastor could explain what had happened. No canon lawyer I talked to could explain it either. I’m still confused about this 8 years later. Seemed like there’s a rule of some and a different rule for others.

Not to be a problem but maybe this situation is between the couple and the bishop.

No one knows what went on between them. No one really needs to know.

Only the couple and the bishop. If the bishop told them they can receive and the priest was told so as well why would you question it? Why would you even bring the issue up to a canon lawyer?

The Church does practice “different rules for others”. They are called dispensations, indults, and pastoral applications. In the Eastern Church it is called ekonomia.

 

[LilyM]

Not to be a problem but maybe this situation is between the couple and the bishop.

No one knows what went on between them. No one really needs to know.

Only the couple and the bishop. If the bishop told them they can receive and the priest was told so as well why would you question it? Why would you even bring the issue up to a canon lawyer?

The Church does practice “different rules for others”. They are called dispensations, indults, and pastoral applications. In the Eastern Church it is called ekonomia.

But AFAIK a pastor cannot dispense from the canons that apply in the OP’s case, and at the very least there is not complete open slather to dispense for any reason or no reason. I agree with not questioning the bishop because that is a private situation. Here it is the OP asking the question about her own marriage.

 

[ValPal]

Is no one happy for me that my priest is willing to work with me and give our family unit the peace and happiness it deserves?

Sure, we’re happy for you, and it’s great that your actively correcting your irregular marriage situation. People are just concerned because it appears some of the information you are given is incorrect (based on the information you provided).

 

[Phemie]

Not to be a problem but maybe this situation is between the couple and the bishop.

No one knows what went on between them. No one really needs to know.

Only the couple and the bishop. If the bishop told them they can receive and the priest was told so as well why would you question it? Why would you even bring the issue up to a canon lawyer?

The Church does practice “different rules for others”. They are called dispensations, indults, and pastoral applications. In the Eastern Church it is called ekonomia.

Because it was not a private thing between the couple and the bishop, it was between the couple, the bishop, their friends and the Knights of Columbus. If it had been only between the couple and the bishop no one would have known about it.

When you don’t understand something, you ask. When I didn’t understand convalidation, I asked the priest and found out. When I didn’t understand other things, I asked. When this happened and I didn’t understand, I asked. The priest said he didn’t have a clue what it had all been about. He could easily have said, 'That’s between the bishop and the couple and none of your business." He seemed as perplexed as I was.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But AFAIK a pastor cannot dispense from the canons that apply in the OP’s case, and at the very least there is not complete open slather to dispense for any reason or no reason. I agree with not questioning the bishop because that is a private situation. Here it is the OP asking the question about her own marriage.

Yes, but we do not know the whole story.

But my reply was to the case that Phemie posted about and not the OP.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Because it was not a private thing between the couple and the bishop, it was between the couple, the bishop, their friends and the Knights of Columbus. If it had been only between the couple and the bishop no one would have known about it.

When you don’t understand something, you ask. When I didn’t understand convalidation, I asked the priest and found out. When I didn’t understand other things, I asked. When this happened and I didn’t understand, I asked. The priest said he didn’t have a clue what it had all been about. He could easily have said, 'That’s between the bishop and the couple and none of your business." He seemed as perplexed as I was.

Still your case is between the couple and the bishop. Others who are involved in any way were told by the bishop how to act. They were told what they needed to know and nothing more.

No one outside of those has any need to know anything and there for should not be inquiring. If they feel that they have a need to know then they should either speak with the couple or the bishop.

 

[nessie238]

So-called peace and happiness based on an untrue foundation is worthless and false. Many a hardened criminal feels peaceful and happy when committing their crimes - doesn’t mean it is right. Acting as if you are married when in the eyes of the Church your husband is married to his ex wife and so at present cannot possibly be truly married to you is a rejection of the Catholic idea of marriage. And is deceiving yourself if noone else. And the Eucharist is a privilege for those in a state of grace (and believe me I have had to refrain plenty of times when I have been in a state of sin) and not some sort of right that we can exercise however and whenever we wish.

Imagine someone told you that they had stolen a valuable necklace, gone to their priest, confessed not only that they had stolen it but had no intention of returning the necklace even though it was well within their power to do so, as they wanted to contjnue to enjoy the fruits if their sin. Is that the action of someone who was truly sorry? Or truly forgiven (since true forgiveness requires true sorrow, including a willingness to restore that which was stolen)? You have stolen something that for the time being belongs to your husband’s first wife. And show no remorse for having done so.

Now in regards your marriage - why the necessity to go through the processes you are going through, the paperwork you are going through, to regularize your marriage if there is, as you seem to feel, nothing wrong with what you have done? Do you understand that as far as the Church is concerned your husband is still very much in a valid marriage with his first wife and unless and until they declare that marriage to be invalid he can have and does have no other marriage? That no priest has the power to declare your relationship with him to be a valid marriage unless and until his first marriage is declared null?

If I thought practicing as a doctor while unlicensed was fine why would I bother becoming certified? And if a single rogue advisor was telling me I didn’t need a licence - but shoukd get one anyway - what sense would that make? And when both the law of the land and many other people say exactly the contrary, and say that I do need a licence, why on earth would I trust that rogue? What reason have I to think that that one person is above the law of the land and knows better than the legislators and all the other folks?

You do know priests as individuals are erring, fallible and human right? You know they can misunderstand and give wrong advice? Or even do so intentionally?

Please don’t tell me how I feel or whether or not I am truly sorry … I asked a question, I am not on trial and I am not asking you or any other person to give me absolution (or a stoning).
I took the advice I asked for and spoke to my priest.
Not that it is any of your business but I am conflicted and have been living as “brother and sister” as people put it.
What I can truly gain from all the ‘broo haha’ my question has created is simply this …
God forgives, people don’t.
Thank you all for your ‘concern’.
With love and blessings only Our Father can give,
Ness

 

[chaela_may]

Please don’t tell me how I feel or whether or not I am truly sorry … I asked a question, I am not on trial and I am not asking you or any other person to give me absolution (or a stoning).
I took the advice I asked for and spoke to my priest.
Not that it is any of your business but I am conflicted and have been living as “brother and sister” as people put it.
What I can truly gain from all the ‘broo haha’ my question has created is simply this …
God forgives, people don’t.
Thank you all for your ‘concern’.
With love and blessings only Our Father can give,
Ness

hugs

on the one hand, judgement belongs to God alone and maybe some people shouldn’t have said anything, or should have said things differently.

on the other hand, did you mention before this that you two weren’t having sex? that was a pretty important piece of information and you did come here asking for advice. you can’t expect good advice if you don’t give your advisers all the information.

my advice is the same as it was before: rest assured that no one has the right to condemn you (and you should ignore them if they do); just do your best to be at peace with God and only worry about His judgement.

 

[nessie238]

Thank you, but my question was about my situation and advice on steps I had to take to fix it, I am not one to talk about my sex life … I needed no one to assume that we were or were not having sex. Having taken the advice of the posters I went and saw my priest - the problem with that was telling people that I did so and what he suggested.
I went from “I’ve been there”, “see your priest” , “praying for you” … to being put in the same category as a criminal.
Making people feel worthless is not how I was raised (and I was raised Catholic) and if the opinions put across were pure fact for my reading I may not have been as hurt as I was for being compared to a theif and telling me my happiness was worthless.
I may not have given ALL information - I was curious and needed direction… ALL the information was given to the priest in regards to when and how we were married and when my husband converted. After seeking advice and being told to see a priest I did that and gave the only one who needed the entire lot of my information exactley what he needed. He then told me what I had to do and how we should go about doing it.
I shared my joy at the progress expressing thanks for the posters for their direction … and proceeded to be condemned by people who
a) did NOT have all the info and
b) have no right to call me a sinner.
A sinner I may be … but this is not the 1830’s and we do don’t stamd around chanting “that witch will go to hell” well not in my part of the world anyway.
I am working with my priests to right my wrongs.
A forum like this should hold people in their prayers that need guidance and support.
But I shall pray for guidance myself … I shall ask my family and my friends for their prayers as well … I was a fool to think a forum full of Catholics would actually be helpful and loving and supportive.
And I am sorry to those who did show me support and love and promise of prayers … this post is not directed at or meant for you.

 

[chaela_may]

I was a fool to think a forum full of Catholics would actually be helpful and loving and supportive.

i hope that you don’t really mean that. i’ll continue to pray for you.

 

[LilyM]

Thank you, but my question was about my situation and advice on steps I had to take to fix it, I am not one to talk about my sex life … I needed no one to assume that we were or were not having sex. Having taken the advice of the posters I went and saw my priest - the problem with that was telling people that I did so and what he suggested.
I went from “I’ve been there”, “see your priest” , “praying for you” … to being put in the same category as a criminal.
Making people feel worthless is not how I was raised (and I was raised Catholic) and if the opinions put across were pure fact for my reading I may not have been as hurt as I was for being compared to a theif and telling me my happiness was worthless.
I may not have given ALL information - I was curious and needed direction… ALL the information was given to the priest in regards to when and how we were married and when my husband converted. After seeking advice and being told to see a priest I did that and gave the only one who needed the entire lot of my information exactley what he needed. He then told me what I had to do and how we should go about doing it.
I shared my joy at the progress expressing thanks for the posters for their direction … and proceeded to be condemned by people who
a) did NOT have all the info and
b) have no right to call me a sinner.
A sinner I may be … but this is not the 1830’s and we do don’t stamd around chanting “that witch will go to hell” well not in my part of the world anyway.
I am working with my priests to right my wrongs.
A forum like this should hold people in their prayers that need guidance and support.
But I shall pray for guidance myself … I shall ask my family and my friends for their prayers as well … I was a fool to think a forum full of Catholics would actually be helpful and loving and supportive.
And I am sorry to those who did show me support and love and promise of prayers … this post is not directed at or meant for you.

Nobody called you a witch nor any insulting name, nor insinuated that you were going to hell, or indeed in any way committing a moral wrong.

Fair enough we didn’t have all the information.

What we had was your priest’s pronouncement that Church views on your type of situation are changing. Given that Church view has always been exactly what you have now said you are doing - ie that couples should live chastely whilst seeking annulment/convalidation (and I sincerely rejoice both that you are seeking the Church’s blessing on your relationship and taking the courageous step of living according to its dictates) - what exactly is he proposing that they change TO except a situation where such couples are NOT living chastely but have a blind eye turned in their direction nonetheless?

Apologies for my hasty remarks and assumptions. And God’s blessings on you and prayers for a happy future. Not one out of a hundred questions that we get on this topic is from a person who is happy to abide by Canon Law and live as brother and sister. Ninety-nine plus are from people who are resentful and declare that they have no intention of living by that part of the law. Nevertheless, apologies again for making a mistaken and hurtful assumption.

Having said which, sex and marriage are so closely connected that it is at least somewhat rare for a discussion on one not to veer off into the other. Certainly Church teaching focuses a lot on the sexual aspect of marriage, simply because that is where there is most disagreement, dissent and need for clear guidance.

A simple ‘my partner and I are abiding completely by Church teaching’ from you would have been sufficient to clear up all the misunderstanding and provide the necessary information without being overly revealing or, I hope, embarrassing. I’d hate to think how you would cope if you were in a situation of having to confess a sexual sin - a priest would need far more detail than that in some cases!