Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU

[KyivAndrew]

I don’t see why Catholic leaders don’t support President Putin of Russia and his attempt to protect children from proselytisation by the LGBT community. Is it true that these Catholic leaders are endorsing membership in the EU which strongly supports the rights of the LGBT community? I am with President Putin and his policy to protect children against being subjected to miseducation and propaganda of the LBGT community.

No they want the rule of law, which will come to the country much sooner if it signs an association agreement with the EU, than it will in being subservient to Putin. And I’m sure the Ukrainian people would have much to say to Europe on the defense of the family. Out of all the countries of the former Soviet Union, Ukraine by far has the largest church attendance rate, much higher than Russia in fact.

There is much more to this than just looking through the lens of what is said about the LGBT community. I mean if this is the sole criterion then you take it to the logical extreme and can say Stalin was anti-gay, therefore, let’s support Stalin.

The fact is you’re dealing with a sick Sovietized society which will not get better under Putin’s regime. In fact several Catholic priests recently were investigated under Putin’s Foreign Agents law in Russia if you wish to speak of Catholics and Putin. The point I wish to make is this is much bigger than just looking at it simply from what is said about LGBT. It is a bigger and more complex problem for all of society.

Tombdstone, the fact is I think you’d need to live there for awhile to understand this.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Seamus, on videos, it is my understanding that RT is to be discouraged as a news-source on CAF.

In any event, here is a video of one Ukrainian journalist being beaten up by the militia. He clearly had a media badge on him and people were shouting that he is media but he got his head kicked in nonetheless. The shouts you hear are of him in pain as he gets kicked in his head and ribs. Others in the media were also beaten up.
youtube.com/watch?v=zBWqawm81Fo

Remember the violence started late Friday night by the militia, not the protestors, when only several hundreds of students remained in Independence Square and Yanukovych was returning from Vilnius. Several thousand of the militia were sent in to beat up young guys and girls with truncheons, kicking them.

The following article from the Kyiv Post links to several of these videos which show such:
kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/reports-police-forcefully-break-up-protest-site-on-maidan-nezalezhnosti-this-morning-332674.html

The kids then took off to St. Michael’s Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral for protection from the authorities.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Oh, and thanks Mod. for uniting the threads.

The thread for me is kind of emotional because I actually know several people at the Independence Square. When the Berkut militia attacked the students Friday night, the next morning one of my acquaintances just broke down upon seeing the scene. It’s one thing to write about it I suppose, and another to actually see the blood.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Just one small addition. To me it seems the protests now are more about impeaching the current thuggish President of Ukraine and his corrupt regime and bringing true rule of law to Ukraine, then it is of desperation to sign an agreement with the EU forthwith.

 

[Tomdstone]

There is much more to this than just looking through the lens of what is said about the LGBT community.

Maybe, but Putin has supported and strengthened the Holy Russian Orthodox Church in Russia and has moved to protect children against pro-homosexual propaganda. I don’t see anything more important to society than its children. To my way of thinking, Putin is right in his call to protect children against the immoral and perverted LGBT community which is trying to miseducate children in immoral ways. I would not agree with the EU and it support for the rights of the LGBT community to infiltrate into society and miseducate children with explicit propaganda. I think it is much better to support the pro-family values of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church over those in the EU.
And, BTW, was not the present president of Ukraine elected in an open and democratic vote of the people?

 

[KyivAndrew]

Maybe, but Putin has supported and strengthened the Holy Russian Orthodox Church in Russia and has moved to protect children against pro-homosexual propaganda. I don’t see anything more important to society than its children. To my way of thinking, Putin is right in his call to protect children against the immoral and perverted LGBT community which is trying to miseducate children in immoral ways. I would not agree with the EU and it support for the rights of the LGBT community to infiltrate into society and miseducate children with explicit propaganda. I think it is much better to support the pro-family values of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church over those in the EU.
And, BTW, was not the present president of Ukraine elected in an open and democratic vote of the people?

Well, sorry it’s getting late here but to my mind Putin is running an autocratic regime in Russia. The rule of law there is arbitrary. Look at what happened to the lawyer Sergei Magnitsky who exposed the corruption in Putin’s regime. He gets arrested for revealing the truth, dies painfully in prison an innocent man, then Putin’s procurator’s office has the nerve to sue his dead family to boot. Putin’s party was elected in elections where many major opponents were prevented from registering even to be on the ballot. Putin only allowed in his elections the participation of parties whose people he could control like Zhirinovsky’s radical nationalist party (an FSB secret police front), the communists, and a faux social democratic party. He basically made it so the choice was between him and the communists. And he runs the country. His powers are much greater than leaders in the West, yet the abortion rates in Russia under Putin dwarf the US.

If you don’t believe in freedom of the press, then Putin is your man as well. All TV stations in Russia are controlled by the Kremlin and cannot be critical of Putin. Seriously. He took a puppet show which made fun of political leaders off the air because he could not handle the satire. Most autocrats cannot.

So I guess if you are fine with the arbitrary rule of law, corruption, no freedom of press on the TV from where most Russians get their news, then Putin is acceptable. But the arbitrary rule of law, jailing of political opponents, curbed freedom of assembly are not fine with me.

Remember one of Putin’s biggest heroes is the former head of the Soviet KGB Yuri Andropov, the butcher of Budapest, who persecuted Christians and threw in tens of thousands of anti-Soviet people into psychiatric asylums and shoved psychotic drugs down some of their throats to cure them of the disease of anti-communism (the head of the then underground Ukrainian Catholic Church was one such sent to an asylum and medicated with heavy drugs). Putin has put up statues to Andropov, personally had a plaque erected to him in the Lubyanka. I am not fine with this since Ukrainian Catholics were repressed severely by Andropov, as were other believers as well, yet Putin holds him up as a role model. What does it say about a person who puts up monuments to KGB butchers?

As for Ukraine’s President, he won the 2010 elections by a slim margin (and he used pressure tactics to get the vote i.e. vote for me or lose your job). Shortly thereafter, he imprisons his political opponent Yulia Tymoshenko, has his oligarch friends buy out any left over independent TV stations, and presides over a corrupt raid of the nation’s wealth for his family. This was not what he was elected for.

Yanukovych and Putin are very much alike, except because of Russia’s gas and oil, its coffers are fuller than Ukraine’s.

I am just not fine with regimes which in fact have installed themselves for life (Putin has basically held the reigns of office since 2000), curb freedom of expression and assembly, and harass any political opponents and make the rule of law basically their whim. I would not wish to live in such a society.

 

[Tomdstone]

As for Ukraine’s President, he won the 2010 elections by a slim margin (and he used pressure tactics to get the vote i.e. vote for me or lose your job). Shortly thereafter, he imprisons his political opponent Yulia Tymoshenko, has his oligarch friends buy out any left over independent TV stations, and presides over a corrupt raid of the nation’s wealth for his family. This was not what he was elected for.

Bush was elected president of US by an even slimmer margin and used his friends to invade Iraq on false pretenses and help the military industrial complex. So democracy is not perfect in any country.
Do you maintain that the loser of the election, Yulia Tymoshenko is a completely honest person who has done absolutely nothing wrong and was not in any way involved in the murders of Yevhen Shcherban, his wife and two other people in 1996 or the murder of Olexandr Momot in 1996? She has a rather large number of criminal accusations against her. See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_cases_against_Yulia_Tymoshenko_since_2010

 

[Tomdstone]

If you don’t believe in freedom of the press, then Putin is your man as well.

What about the news from the internet, or the you tube videos? Can you receive yahoo news, msnbc news, or cnn news over the internet in Russia? Are these blocked in Russia?

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Bush was elected president of US by an even slimmer margin and used his friends to invade Iraq on false pretenses and help the military industrial complex. So democracy is not perfect in any country.
Do you maintain that the loser of the election, Yulia Tymoshenko is a completely honest person who has done absolutely nothing wrong and was not in any way involved in the murders of Yevhen Shcherban, his wife and two other people in 1996 or the murder of Olexandr Momot in 1996? She has a rather large number of criminal accusations against her. See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_cases_against_Yulia_Tymoshenko_since_2010

Tymoshenko is probably not innocent, a trait shared by many politicians in that part of the world. (Yanukovych has a criminal record as well)

But the protests in Kyiv are about far more than whether Tymoshenko or Yanokovych should be president – they really are about the direction the country should take, whether to continue on its current path or move toward the rule of law. Remember that although there were protests against Yanukovych’s decision not to sign the agreement with the EU, the protests grew to overwhelming size only after the riot police came in and beat protesters and journalists around 4 a.m. on Saturday morning.

FWIW, the Kyiv Post, Kyiv’s English-language newspaper, has been providing blog-style updates of the current situation in Ukraine as it unfolds, and they’ve also taken down parts of their paywall to provide free access to their articles and updates about the protests: kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-live-updates-332341.html

Regardless of politics, we should all be praying for a peaceful and just resolution to the situation in Ukraine right now.

 

[Tomdstone]

Tymoshenko is probably not innocent, a trait shared by many politicians in that part of the world. (Yanukovych has a criminal record as well)

But the protests in Kyiv are about far more than whether Tymoshenko or Yanokovych should be president – they really are about the direction the country should take, whether to continue on its current path or move toward the rule of law. Remember that although there were protests against Yanukovych’s decision not to sign the agreement with the EU, the protests grew to overwhelming size only after the riot police came in and beat protesters and journalists around 4 a.m. on Saturday morning.

FWIW, the Kyiv Post, Kyiv’s English-language newspaper, has been providing blog-style updates of the current situation in Ukraine as it unfolds, and they’ve also taken down parts of their paywall to provide free access to their articles and updates about the protests: kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-live-updates-332341.html

Regardless of politics, we should all be praying for a peaceful and just resolution to the situation in Ukraine right now.

Well, how is Ukraine going to move toward the rule of law if you put a crook like Tymoshenko in power?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_cases_against_Yulia_Tymoshenko_since_2010

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Well, how is Ukraine going to move toward the rule of law if you put a crook like Tymoshenko in power?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_cases_against_Yulia_Tymoshenko_since_2010

Seeing as how she’s incarcerated, even if the current government were to be dissolved on a no-confidence vote, she wouldn’t be in charge…

 

[KyivAndrew]

What about the news from the internet, or the you tube videos? Can you receive yahoo news, msnbc news, or cnn news over the internet in Russia? Are these blocked in Russia?

First you have to be able to read and understand English for many of these sites. Secondly, many Russians don’t have an internet connection at home, and rely on TV for news, which stations are controlled by the Kremlin - no criticism of Putin allowed. That means you will get a bunch of anti-Western stories combined with stuff like: “Today, President Putin visited factory so and so and congratulated the workers on a job well done. President Putin has promised further investment…” or whatever. It’s somewhat like in Soviet times: “Today, General Secretary Brezhnev condemned the West for abuses in…”

There is one independent radio station in Russia called Ekho Moskvi but even it is now owned by Russia’s state petro firm Gazprom (keep your friends close, your enemies).

Thirdly, on the internet, young people who belong to Putin’s organized youth groups like Nashi and Molodaya Gvardiya and Stal are not like the scouts here in the West but actually have “POLITICAL COMMISSARS” in their youth groups and summer camps to make sure the youth is properly educated with respect to the evil western democracies and opponents to Putin. Irony of ironies, one of the political dissidents against the Soviet Union, Liudmilla Alekseyeva, now an elderly woman, imprisoned in the Gulag, criticizes Putin for human rights abuses and has here portrait put up in a Nashi summer camp with a giant swastika over it to educate the youth. Nice. Russian opponents to Putin are painted over with swastikas - chess champion Kasparov, etc.

Many of these pro-Kremlin youths (whether they are sincere are just in it for societal advancement) are paid to post pro-Putin posts on the Russian blogosphere,and this claim is made by other independent Russians. Usually a Nashi poster will post stuff against anti-Putin Russians (whom they called ‘liberasts’) like: “take a chill pill”, “calm down” as they defend the Kremlin online.

The blogosphere can sometimes be drowned out by these posters.

So let me get this straight tombdstone, you support complete Kremlin control of all of Russia’s TVs stations and news coverage and favor Putin and his team basically deciding what news Russians are allowed to hear so Putin and the Kremlin can do all the thinking for the Russian people, is that correct?

 

[Tomdstone]

Seeing as how she’s incarcerated, even if the current government were to be dissolved on a no-confidence vote, she wouldn’t be in charge…

Not clear one way or the other since oftentimes after a revolution or semi-revolution, political prisoners are freed.
Also, in Boston, MA, USA, Mayor Curley performed his duties as mayor while in jail.

 

[Tomdstone]

First you have to be able to read and understand English for many of these sites.

Not true, since ru.yahoo.com is completely in the Russian language.
And it is not true for sites in English since they have google translate and as well other free online translation services. I have used them many times when reading articles in foreign languages and although they are not perfect, you can get the idea of what is being said.

 

[Tomdstone]

So let me get this straight tombdstone, you support complete Kremlin control of all of Russia’s TVs stations and news coverage and favor Putin and his team basically deciding what news Russians are allowed to hear so Putin and the Kremlin can do all the thinking for the Russian people, is that correct?

Your hypothesis is incorrect, since in the cities there are internet cafes and anyone can log in to ru.yahoo.com which is entirely in the Russian language.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Bush was elected president of US by an even slimmer margin and used his friends to invade Iraq on false pretenses and help the military industrial complex. So democracy is not perfect in any country.
Do you maintain that the loser of the election, Yulia Tymoshenko is a completely honest person who has done absolutely nothing wrong and was not in any way involved in the murders of Yevhen Shcherban, his wife and two other people in 1996 or the murder of Olexandr Momot in 1996? She has a rather large number of criminal accusations against her. See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_cases_against_Yulia_Tymoshenko_since_2010

Firstly, if you hate Bush or US foreign policy please don’t use Ukraine as a proxy outlet for your anger. I’ve come across this too much on the internet: ridiculous stories like all the pro-democracy movements in Ukraine are secretly run by a cabal of neo-cons in Washington, as if Ukrainians can’t think for themselves or the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox Churches must be run by them. And of course democracy is imperfect, as Churchill said, but in the West there is a division of powers between branches of power, but there is none in Ukraine under Yanukovych. This is pretty elementary to see. You can’t use “perfect democracy” as a straw man.

Secondly, a lot of these prosecutions against Tymoshenko have just begun after she lost the presidential elections. You mention Shcherban… his family never even pointed the finger at Tymoshenko. Most believed Yanukovych’s Donetsk mafia was behind it, but now she’s become the fall guy. A lot of the prosecutions against her were started by Presidents Kuchma or Yanukovych who have way more to answer for criminally, the beheading of the journalist Gongadze for instance.

She may have made her money like many others did in the 1990s but the point is when she was elected to government she clamped down on corruption, and already began in the opposition in 2000 to realize Ukraine was headed for dictatorship and Kuchma had to be opposed. If she was just in it for herself and enrichment (as Yanukovych is) she could have fled Ukraine but she stayed knowing full well the risk of Yanukovych imprisoning her for standing up to him.

In any event, there are figures like Klitchko and Yatseniuk who are leading anti-Yanukovych protests on top of the masses of plain honest citizens and students, so the issue in this thread is not really Tymoshenko. This is just an instance of whataboutism on your part I submit, i.e. “yes, Yanukovych is …but look at Bush, look at Tymoshenko, what about them?” That just elides the issue in this post.

Again, I get it. You despise Bush’s invasion of Iraq, the US military, but in my opinion you are wrong to use Ukraine as a proxy outlet for your anti-Western anger.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Your hypothesis is incorrect, since in the cities there are internet cafes and anyone can log in to ru.yahoo.com which is entirely in the Russian language.

Internet cafes in Russia’s villages and countryside? OK. You didn’t answer my question: do you support Putin controlling all the TV news in Russia as he does now?

 

[Tomdstone]

Firstly, if you hate Bush or US foreign policy please don’t use Ukraine as a proxy outlet for your anger. I’ve come across this too much on the internet: ridiculous stories like all the pro-democracy movements in Ukraine are secretly run by a cabal of neo-cons in Washington, as if Ukrainians can’t think for themselves or the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox Churches must be run by them. And of course democracy is imperfect, as Churchill said, but in the West there is a division of powers between branches of power, but there is none in Ukraine under Yanukovych. This is pretty elementary to see. You can’t use “perfect democracy” as a straw man.

Secondly, a lot of these prosecutions against Tymoshenko have just begun after she lost the presidential elections. You mention Shcherban… his family never even pointed the finger at Tymoshenko. Most believed Yanukovych’s Donetsk mafia was behind it, but now she’s become the fall guy. A lot of the prosecutions against her were started by Presidents Kuchma or Yanukovych who have way more to answer for criminally, the beheading of the journalist Gongadze for instance.

She may have made her money like many others did in the 1990s but the point is when she was elected to government she clamped on corruption full stop, and already began in the opposition in 2000 to realize Ukraine was headed for dictatorship and Kuchma had to be opposed. If she was just in it for herself and enrichment (as Yanukovych is) she could have fled Ukraine but she stayed knowing full well the risk of Yanukovych imprisoning her for standing up to him.

In any event, there are figures like Klitchko and Yatseniuk who are leading anti-Yanukovych protests on top of the masses of plain honest citizens and students, so the issue in this thread is not really Tymoshenko. This is just an instance of whataboutism on your part I submit, i.e. “yes, Yanukovych is …but look at Bush, look at Tymoshenko, what about them?” That just elides the issue in this post.

Again, I get it. You despise Bush’s invasion of Iraq, the US military, but in my opinion you are wrong to use Ukraine as a proxy outlet for your anti-Western anger.

I’m only trying to point out, that I don’t see where you can expect to have a perfect democracy even if Yanukovich is tossed out of power. Ukraine is heading toward chaos, which will be worse than it is now. The LA times reports today that Yanukovich has called Barroso, the European Commission president, to send a delegation to reopen and rediscuss the trade agreement. Yanukovich is not perfect, but a whole lot of people voted for him. Why not wait until the next elections and have your politicians discuss and debate what they want for Ukraine at that time. You had your leader in power before Yanukovich and what did he do? Whatever it was, your Orange revolution leader was not well liked by the population.
What do you want for Ukraine, and who do you want to lead it? I hope it is not the crook Tymoshenko.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I’m only trying to point out, that I don’t see where you can expect to have a perfect democracy even if Yanukovich is tossed out of power. Ukraine is heading toward chaos, which will be worse than it is now. The LA times reports today that Yanukovich has called Barroso, the European Commission president, to send a delegation to reopen and rediscuss the trade agreement. Yanukovich is not perfect, but a whole lot of people voted for him. Why not wait until the next elections and have your politicians discuss and debate what they want for Ukraine at that time. You had your leader in power before Yanukovich and what did he do? Whatever it was, your Orange revolution leader was not well liked by the population.
What do you want for Ukraine, and who do you want to lead it? I hope it is not the crook Tymoshenko.

As I said, neither I nor Ukrainian Catholic Cardinal Husar for that matter are looking for a “perfect democracy” as you aver. No such thing exists, as Churchill said. Ukrainian society is terribly ill and corrupt and Yanukovych is part of the problem not the solution. I could post links to Yanukovych’s mansions and his sons’ wealth, all accumulated at the hands of ordinary Ukrainians’ wealth, but I don’t think that would really prove anything to you.

Yanukovych, upon assuming power, bribed members of parliament with millions of dollars to switch party allegiance (against the Constitution) and completely made the Constitutional Court subservient to him. Plus, Yushchenko is not my man and I am thoroughly disappointed and angered by him.

I believe Ukraine should become a state with free elections and the rule of law and division of powers. The longer Yanukovych stays in power, the less this becomes possible.

In any event, I’ve made my points. I don’t like getting stuck on one thread and posting non-stop all evening on the same subject. It just turns into overkill, and probably isn’t very healthy. Peace.

 

[Tomdstone]

Internet cafes in Russia’s villages and countryside? OK. You didn’t answer my question: do you support Putin controlling all the TV news in Russia as he does now?

I’m not so sure that he does. For example,
This is a list of Russian magazines, sorted by their circulation.

Rank Name Circulation[11] Publisher
1 Cosmopolitan 980.000 Independent Media Sanoma Magazines
2 Glamour 730.000 Condé Nast Publications/Advance Publications
3 Maxim 390.000
4 Psychologies 360.000 Hachette Filipacchi Shkulev
5 Hello! 350.000
6 Good Housekeeping 230.000 Independent Media Sanoma Magazines
7 National Geographic 230.000 Independent Media Sanoma Magazines
8 ELLE 220.000 Hachette Filipacchi Shkulev
9 Cosmopolitan Shopping 200.000 Independent Media Sanoma Magazines
10 Igromania 180.000 Tehnomir
11 Men’s Health 160.000 Independent Media Sanoma Magazines
12 Playboy 160.000 Burda
13 Vogue 150.000 Condé Nast Publications/Advance Publications
14 L’Officiel 150.000
15 Elle Girl 140.000 Hachette Filipacchi Shkulev
16 XXL 140.000 IDR[disambiguation needed]
17 Esquire 125.000 Independent Media Sanoma Magazines
18 Marie Claire 125.000 Hachette Filipacchi Shkulev
19 Harper’s Bazaar 120.000 Independent Media Sanoma Magazines
20 Tatler 120.000 Condé Nast Publications/Advance Publications
21 Forbes 120.000 Axel Springer Russia
22 OK! 120.000 Axel Springer Russia
23 InStyle 120.000
24 FHM 110.000 IDR[disambiguation needed]
25 Rolling Stone 110.000 SPN Publishing
26 GQ 100.000 Condé Nast Publications/Advance Publications
27 GQ Style 100.000 Condé Nast Publications/Advance Publications
28 ComputerBild 100.000 Axel Springer Russia
29 Sportweek 100.000 Global Media Group
30 PC Igry 85.000 Gameland
31 Strana Igr 80.000 Gameland
32 CHIP 70.000 Hubert Burda Media
32 Wedding 70.000 Global Media Group
33 AD / Architectural Digest 60.000 Condé Nast Publications/Advance Publications
34 Русский Newsweek (ended)[12] 55.000 Axel Springer Russia
35 Navigator Igrovogo Mira 52.000 Navigator Publishing
36 Collezioni 50.000 Global Media Group

If there is so much censorship in Russia, how come they allow these magazines to be sold?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_magazines_by_circulation

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_magazines_by_circulation