Cleavage

[Nacho45]

Oh please, if cleavage makes you forget that a woman is a person as opposed to an object, you are the one with the problem.

And the woman assumes a large portion of that problem by fueling the fire.

 

[Nacho45]

I serve as a usher at Mass. One morning a young woman came with an extremely low-cut. And she was rather, um, well-endowed to boot.

I asked her to leave because she was not appropriately dressed and she gave me some argument about “God doesn’t care how I dress.”

I said “No, God probably doesn’t care but we do.”

She left in a huff and went to complain to the priest who backed me up.

Good for you and your priest. The Mass isn’t to be mocked due to fashion and modern feminism. If it distracted you from focusing on the Mass, it should have been corrected and she should have know better.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

Obviously, not turning anyone away means what it means, not allowing someone who seeks to attend mass to enter or to stay.

Its God’s house, the rules should be in line with what Christ taught in word and deed.

Yep. Like this antiitchmeditation.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/whatwjd.jpg

 

[Nacho45]

In the West breasts didn’t used to be sexualized.

They were indeed.

 

[Nacho45]

Respect everyone as persons. Think of women as your sisters/mothers. Look at a woman’s face, not her body.

If it were my mother, sister, wife or daughter, I would tell them to dress properly…and have done so.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Good for you and your priest. The Mass isn’t to be mocked due to fashion and modern feminism. If it distracted you from focusing on the Mass, it should have been corrected and she should have know better.

That’s not modern feminism, that’s just bad taste

They were indeed.

Is that “indeed they were not sexualized” or “indeed they were sexualized”?

 

[Walking_Home]

What is being said is she is causing another to sin, which is a sin, and should not be done. If its an accidental exposure that’s one thing. If it’s obvious and she knows, which most do, it’s wrong. There is nothing fancy or complicated about this.

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This is disservice to men – for you make men look like --they don’t have the ability to be anything other – than animals in heat.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

This is disservice to men – for you make men look like --they don’t have the ability to be anything other – than animals in heat.

Now let’s not misrepresent people’s posts. It’s bad manners.

CCC 2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

 

[Nacho45]

What two ways. So a man should only respect and see a woman as a person if she is dressed to some standards set by some?
That is not what the Church teaches.

I believe the best approach to this is women should respect themselves enough to not create a situation where they are devalued. There is already enough of that without the contributions of Christian women. If a woman does what she can to maintain a modest and wholesome appearance and someone still looks on her in the wrong way, she doesn’t share in that persons sin. If she dresses immodestly, she does share. Perception is perceived reality.

 

[underacloud]

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This is disservice to men – for you make men look like --they don’t have the ability to be anything other – than animals in heat.

Concupiscence is an effect of the fall. Most men have a hard time not glancing at exposed cleavage. It is inherent in our fallen nature. Certainly we are not, or should not be, like animals on heat, but we are nonetheless distracted/tempted by such things.

 

[Nacho45]

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This is disservice to men – for you make men look like --they don’t have the ability to be anything other – than animals in heat.

I have no idea what you are referencing.

 

[Walking_Home]

Now let’s not misrepresent people’s posts. It’s bad manners.

CCC 2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

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The scandal how people try to “justify” their own weaknesse/ temptations/sins – by blaming and scapegoating someone else. The more one justifies/blames the other --the more one locks oneself in weakness/temptations/sins. The only solution/medicine for temptation/sin is God’s Grace.

Pope Francis
Feb. 18, 2014

The Pope took the opportunity to reflect on the liturgy of the day, and particularly on the Letter of St James (12-18), in which the apostle, “after having spoken to us yesterday of patience… speaks to us today of resistance; the resistance to temptation. He explains how each person is tempted by his own passions, which attract and seduce him. Then the passions conceive and create sin, and once that sin is committed, it brings forth death”.

But where does temptation come from? How does it act within us? To answer these questions, the Pope again referred to the passage from the Letter of St James. “The Apostle”, he said, “tells us that sin does not come from God but from our passions, from our inner weaknesses, from the wounds that original sin has left within us. That is where temptation comes from”. He then pointed out the characteristics of temptation, which “grow and are contagious”.

Initially, temptation “begins in a soothing way”, but “then it grows. Jesus himself spoke about this when he told the parable of the seeds and the weeds (Mt 13: 24-30). The seeds grew, but the weeds planted by the enemy also grew. This is how temptation grows, it grows and grows. If one does not make it stop, then it occupies everything”, and that is when infection occurs. Temptation grows, the Pope said, “and it hates solitude”; it will try to spread to another to have company. This is how it accumulates people, spreading to others”.** The third feature is justification; “we justify in order to feel fine with ourselves”.**

The Pope noted how temptation always justifies itself, “since the first original sin” when Adam blames Eve for convincing him to eat the forbidden fruit. Through this growth, infection and justification it “locks us in a place where you cannot easily escape”. To explain this, the Pope referred to the Gospel of Mark (8:14,21): “This is what happened to the apostles who were in the boat: they had forgotten to bring bread”, and began to blame each other and discuss who had made the mistake of forgetting it. “Jesus looked at them, and I think”, the Pope said, “that he smiled as he watched them. And he said to them: do you remember the yeast of the Pharisees and Herod? Take heed, beware!”.** Yet they “did not understand anything, because they were so caught up in blame that they did not have room for anything else, they did not have light to understand the Word of God”. **

osservatoreromano.va/en/news/resist-temptation#.Ux5O-IXCsz9

 

[hamandcheese]

Respect everyone as persons. Think of women as your sisters/mothers. Look at a woman’s face, not her body.

I wouldn’t call one – who bases respect of a person – on what the person wears – healthy in the heart/mind and spirit. Pray for the Grace – to respect/see the image of God – regardless of what the person wears.

It is my respect for humanity and appreciation of the fact that we are all loved by God that causes me to be disgusted when I see women, His daughters, dressed like slovenly prostitutes debasing their human dignity.

You may think that its an act of charity to be accepting of someone showing up at Church half naked but its really an act of cowardness and self indulgence on your part.

Cowardness because you are afraid to speak out and correct them in their sin and self indulgence because its easier and it feels good when you adopt the attitude of “ who am I to judge she can do whatever’s right for her.”

Shame on you Catholics for pretending not to know right and wrong!

In the West breasts didn’t used to be sexualized.

Stop being fixated on the breasts it’s the truth that im talking about. To me this is about the denial of objective truth and the heresy of relativism.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

The scandal how people try to “justify” their own weaknesse/ temptations/sins – by blaming and scapegoating someone else. The more one justifies/blames the other --the more one locks oneself in weakness/temptations/sins. The only solution/medicine for temptation/sin is God’s Grace.

Nice red herring. Can you please explain to me in your own words what scandal is? Because I am not sure you have internalized that definition yet. (Justifying your sins by blaming someone else is not classified as scandal according to the definition I gave from the CCC.)

 

[Walking_Home]

Concupiscence is an effect of the fall. Most men have a hard time not glancing at exposed cleavage. It is inherent in our fallen nature. Certainly we are not, or should not be, like animals on heat, but we are nonetheless distracted/tempted by such things.

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God did not leave people helpless. With God’s Grace- we have the ability to transform ourselves from within – to purify our minds/hearts/ and souls.

 

[Walking_Home]

Nice red herring. Can you please explain to me in your own words what scandal is? Because I am not sure you have internalized that definition yet. (Justifying your sins by blaming someone else is not classified as scandal according to the definition I gave from the CCC.)

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One who “justifies” their temptations/sins – by blaming/scapegoating someone else – shows others to do the same. That person will end up locked in the temptation/sin – like the one before. And the sickness goes down the line.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

One who “justifies” their temptations/sins – by blaming/scapegoating someone else – shows others to do the same. That person will end up locked in the temptation/sin – like the one before. And the sickness goes down the line.

You still haven’t shown me that you understand what “scandal” means. Please give me a definition in your own words.

 

[markomalley]

I guess I must be getting old. In my youth a young lady (guess that ages me too) wouldn’t dream of showing cleavage unless it was at a fancy ball and even then, just a hint. I have a job where I look at thousands of photos for church books and I am stunned at how many women wear very low cut and tight fitting tops. Bra straps showing everwhere too.

wow, no only have fashions changed but modestly levels as well I guess.

**Papal Audience Dress Code: **

           For the Papal Audienence casual but modest dress is  accepted, again ladies should still have shoulders covered particularly  if the meeting is held indoors.
  As the Audience in Summer is usually held outside and Rome gets  extremely hot, bring hats, sunscreen, water and cover up as much as  possible to avoid burning. 
  Men are permitted to wear hats throughout the Audience.
   **St.Peter's Basilica & Sistine Chapel / Vatican Museums Dress Code:**

             ** 
    Men:**
    Men should wear long pants and short sleeves t-shirts or shirts are OK but no vest tops.           
    Jeans are OK, official rules state no shorts.          
    As summers can be very hot the Vatican do sometimes relax the  rules and allow Men to wear shorts however it is worth noting that this  may not always be the case and the official dress code does state no  shorts.          
    It is good perhaps to carry a pair of long pants with you in  case or wear the cargo style pants that allow you to unzip the lower  legs to create shorts when needed.          
    Men should also be aware that hats need to be removed before  entering any church or Chapel which includes St Peter's Basilica and the  Sistine Chapel.
             
     **Women:**
    Women can wear trousers, capri pants and skirts and dresses are  permitted however they cannot be shorter than knee length and shoulders  must be covered.         
    In very hot weather a shawl or large scarf/Pashmina can be draped around the shoulders for visiting the sites.           
    Bare shoulders and short skirts are not permitted and again come prepared to cover up if wearing shorts.
   **Accepted**

   ** Mens
  **- Long pants
  - At least short sleeves
   
   **Women**
  - The knees covered
  - At least short sleeves
   
   **Rejected**

   - Shorts
  - T-shirts without sleeves
  - Short skirts
  - Baseball caps inside the churches

Why should the dress code in a parish church be any different?

 

[underacloud]

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God did not leave people helpless. With God’s Grace- we have the ability to transform ourselves from within – to purify our minds/hearts/ and souls.

And to help each other in doing so. Other posters are merely making the point that Christian women should be aware of the potential effect their choices in clothing may have on their fellow Christians. I’m not sure what is controversial in saying this.

 

[Walking_Home]

You still haven’t shown me that you understand what “scandal” means. Please give me a definition in your own words.

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One who covers for/justifies their temptations/sins by blaming another – leads others to do the same. Draws them in – and they end up locked in temptation/sin.

Feels better and easier to blame – than to take full responsibility for the temptation/sin.