Clement of Rome - Sola Fide

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Reading the Christian Classics Ethereal Library Ante Nicene Fathers Volume 1. Clement of Rome Chapter XXXII and XXXIII (pg. 43 and 44) appear to support Sola Fide when read in context with each other. I am looking for sound apologetics on this topic.
Are you getting that understanding from CCEL footnotes on Clement?

Faith is mentioned 35 times in his 1st letter . All the other letters of his are spurious. In his 1st letter, Faith is NOT alone in his explanations of faith.

in ch 32, one can’t absolutize what he said there, to mean faith alone , and faith is all that is needed. Or there would be no need for Clement to write Ch’s 33, 34 & 35. etc etc etc.
 
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This is an oft repeated fallacy, and the repetition of it makes it no less true. The canon exists because the Holy Spirit has inspired some books and not others. It exists because God has revealed himself through his son, not because a man made authority declared it to be so. And by the way, the canon was established on its own long before Trent made a declaration in opposition to Protestantism.
You have in no way dealt with the logic I presented. I have not given any testimony as to how the canon came to be. I merely stated that you can not practice Sola Scriptura prior to the Apostles writing the letters of the New Testament. How the canon came to be is not within the scope of my statement.
 
I would hope that our absent friend is off being baptized, as we can then discuss things Christian-to-Christian.
 
the canon was established on its own
You ignored my earlier post. Would you care to substantiate this? Or, are you still feeling comfortable with your conscience claiming things without backing any of it up?
 
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This thread has been hijacked by Sola Scriptura. Thank you for your question on the topic of the thread. I didn’t pull my understanding from the footnotes. I will humbly admit that I need further schooling on the doctrine of justification and salvation as the Catholic Church teaches it.

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I am aware the Church teaches that initial justification is by grace through faith alone. However we are ultimately judged by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and our cooperation with Gods grace.

To answer your question further, I made the error of not reading enough before asking my question for which I do apologize.
 
Well, sola anything cannot be separated from any portion of Christian doctrine, as it “alone” is responsible for the perversion of that doctrine.

Initial justification, yes. That part is set in concrete.
 
For the comfort of all involved, due to too many steroids, too many warnings and now an admittedly off-topic flag, I am leaving CAF. It has been fun since 2007, but fax are fax and I am no longer a good fit as I am not entirely in control of my responses.

God bless all!
 
That’s because there was no logic presented. Your view is completely anachronistic, assuming a 1546 agreement of canon (which had notable disagreements from none other than Cardinal Cajetan) that is refuted by history.
 
You are going to have to clarify because I see no posting of yours addressing the canon. But to your question, the canon was largely agreed upon with regard to the gospels and Pauline corpus by the middle of the second century in both local and more broad settings. And many of the general epistles and revelation was already being used locally without top-down declaration. You don’t even see local councils discussing the canon till the fifth century and even these don’t agree on all books discussed. You also see disagreement between early church fathers, particularly regarding the deuterocanonicals, where Jerome and Augustine disagreed upon whether the deuterocanonicals are to be taken in the same way that the other books are. The first ecumenical Council to address the canon (if you can even call it that after the 1054 schism and the Reformation) didn’t even occur until 1546, almost 30 years after the Reformation, and after the Reformers sided with none other than Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate. To make the claims that you attempt to make about how we can’t know the canon without Rome’s declaration would be laughable if you were so serious about it.

What isn’t funny, actually it’s incredibly sad is that this illogical fallacy gets trotted out every time scripture disagrees with your doctrine and you need an exit strategy from having to discuss what the apostles actually taught as told by them in their writings.
 
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Your not dealing with the logic. What I am saying is going over your head for some reason. I am simply saying the first Christians (i.e. Christians prior to St. Paul penning the first letters of scripture in 50 AD) could not practice Sola Scriptura.

Why? Because if they had they would reject that writings outside of the scriptures (They only had the Old Testament at that time) were infallible. Why? Because Sola Scriptura would dictate for them that the Bible alone (The Old Testament only at this time) is infallible.

The logic is sound and you are failing to grasp it. Your not even addressing what I am talking about. If you want to debate what I am talking about your rebuttal should have nothing to do with events that are happening after 50AD. What you have said thus far is irrelevant to what I have said.
 
You are going to have to clarify because I see no posting of yours addressing the canon. But to your question, the canon was largely agreed upon with regard to the gospels and Pauline corpus by the middle of the second century in both local and more broad settings. And many of the general epistles and revelation was already being used locally without top-down declaration. You don’t even see local councils discussing the canon till the fifth century and even these don’t agree on all books discussed. You also see disagreement between early church fathers, particularly regarding the deuterocanonicals, where Jerome and Augustine disagreed upon whether the deuterocanonicals are to be taken in the same way that the other books are.
This is the most facile statement I have seen. Would you care to substantiate the bold portion of your post?
The first ecumenical Council to address the canon (if you can even call it that after the 1054 schism and the Reformation) didn’t even occur until 1546, almost 30 years after the Reformation, and after the Reformers sided with none other than Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate
That is false. The first Ecumenical Council to address the canon was Florence, Session 11—4 February 1442:

"Most firmly it believes, professes and preaches that the one true God, Father, Son and holy Spirit, is the creator of all things that are, visible and invisible, who, when he willed it, made from his own goodness all creatures, both spiritual and corporeal, good indeed because they are made by the supreme good, but mutable because they are made from nothing, and it asserts that there is no nature of evil because every nature, in so far as it is a nature, is good. It professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament — that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel — since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows.

Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John."

I highlighted the books Martin Luther et. al. removed nearly 75 years later.
 
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I am aware the Church teaches that initial justification is by grace through faith alone. However we are ultimately judged by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and our cooperation with Gods grace.
Everything is by grace. However, we need to cooperate with the grace given. IOW we need to do, we need to respond to grace in our actions. Re: “Sola Fide”, (Faith alone) and Clement’s letter ,the title of the thread, faith is NOT alone with Clement nor does he use the word alone with faith. That’s why I posted the link to his letter.

Re: scripture references to faith alone, The ONLY place in ALL scripture where "by faith alone" legitimately appears… NOT is in front of it. Jas 2:24
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catholicray:
This thread has been hijacked by Sola Scriptura. Thank you for your question on the topic of the thread. I didn’t pull my understanding from the footnotes. I will humbly admit that I need further schooling on the doctrine of justification and salvation as the Catholic Church teaches it.

To answer your question further, I made the error of not reading enough before asking my question for which I do apologize.
Is it safe to say, your point was prompted by commentary you might have read from a Protestant source that was commenting on Clement?
 
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Is it safe to say, your point was prompted by commentary you might have read from a Protestant source that was commenting on Clement?
No sir it wasn’t. I rarely read Protestant perspectives anymore. The error is entirely my own. My reason to study the Church Fathers comes from a desire to prove a hypothesis. Mainly that there is not one Church Father that Dr. James White could call brother (saved).
Were this the case then we Catholics could kindly and rightly ask him to stop quoting them altogether.

I know I know it isn’t the best reason nor perhaps very charitable of me but it’s a decent motivator. The question was fueled by impatience. Had I read a few more chapters I would not have asked it.
 
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steve-b:
Is it safe to say, your point was prompted by commentary you might have read from a Protestant source that was commenting on Clement?
No sir it wasn’t. I rarely read Protestant perspectives anymore. The error is entirely my own. My reason to study the Church Fathers comes from a desire to prove a hypothesis. Mainly that there is not one Church Father that Dr. James White could call brother (saved).
Were this the case then we Catholics could kindly and rightly ask him to stop quoting them altogether.

I know I know it isn’t the best reason nor perhaps very charitable of me but it’s a decent motivator. The question was fueled by impatience. Had I read a few more chapters I would not have asked it.
😎
 
That is false. The first Ecumenical Council to address the canon was Florence, Session 11—4 February 1442:
You may be correct. It still follows the Reformation initiated by Hus. It can also hardly be called ecumenical as they were still trying to sort out which Pope was the legitimate Bishop of Rome. And it still proves my point that there was no definitive declaration by the Catholic Church for roughly 3/4’s the history of Christianity which makes the entire claim that you can’t know the canon without the infallible declaration of the Church a complete joke. And again, Luther’s canon comes from none other than Jerome, unless you are saying Jerome was Protestant because he disagreed with Augustine. That tradition thing sure is a slippery fish to grab.

Thank you for helping to establish my point.
 
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You are going to have to clarify because I see no posting of yours addressing the canon. But to your question, the canon was largely agreed upon with regard to the gospels and Pauline corpus by the middle of the second century in both local and more broad settings. And many of the general epistles and revelation was already being used locally without top-down declaration. You don’t even see local councils discussing the canon till the fifth century and even these don’t agree on all books discussed. You also see disagreement between early church fathers, particularly regarding the deuterocanonicals, where Jerome and Augustine disagreed upon whether the deuterocanonicals are to be taken in the same way that the other books are. The first ecumenical Council to address the canon (if you can even call it that after the 1054 schism and the Reformation) didn’t even occur until 1546, almost 30 years after the Reformation, and after the Reformers sided with none other than Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate. To make the claims that you attempt to make about how we can’t know the canon without Rome’s declaration would be laughable if you were so serious about it.

What isn’t funny, actually it’s incredibly sad is that this illogical fallacy gets trotted out every time scripture disagrees with your doctrine and you need an exit strategy from having to discuss what the apostles actually taught as told by them in their writings.
For some history

~ a.d. 170, Muratorian canon. Muratorian Canon (Roberts-Donaldson Translation) uses the authority of “Catholic Church” in determining the canon. Point being the canon was in a state of development till 382… In ~a.d. 382, at the council of Rome, Pope Damasus I, decreed the canon of 73 books that hasn’t changed. Scroll down to “Decree of Damasus” . That canon was confirmed by 3 local councils (Hippo and Carthage), and by 2 ecumenical councils… Florence Session 11 1442 and Trent .
 
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That tradition thing sure is a slippery fish to grab.
That ‘tradition’ gave you the canon of Scripture. Unless, you would want to claim that the canon is inspired or that it simply dropped from Heaven.
And it still proves my point that there was no definitive declaration by the Catholic Church for roughly 3/4’s the history of Christianity which makes the entire claim that you can’t know the canon without the infallible declaration of the Church a complete joke.
There was no definitive declaration by the Catholic Church for three centuries regarding the Dogma of the Trinity; are we to assume it is illegitimate based on that?

You see, you are missing the point of how Dogma develops from the seed of the full deposit of faith. Everything was publicly revealed first in the Person of Jesus Christ; His words, miracles, gestures, silences, actions, etc. Then, the Apostles received and transmitted public revelation through their oral proclamation, i.e. Tradition, in which some was put down in writing. Hence:

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. - 2 Thessalonians 2:15 ESV

Not all public revelation was formally inscripturated. Protestants claim that it was, because that is all they have, a Bible missing seven books with no Magisterium and/or Tradition. And, when you are missing Tradition and/or the Magisterium, you get 30,000+ Christian sects attempting to interpret Scripture. Furthermore, not all public revelation was fully understood in a complete sense during the Apostles tenure, hence ‘there are things you cannot now bear’ and the Holy Spirit being sent to lead the Church into all truth

The Catholic Church gave you the Bible. Every single time you open your Bible, you are inadvertently heeding the authority of the Catholic Church who said which books belong in the Bible and which do not. Martin Luther maintained this reality even after his excommunication.
 
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claimed they were of a secondary inspiration, not.of the same level of authority as the other works
I am very curious where you get this information. He explicitly states that they are part of the Bible and that they are accepted as valid sources of Divine Inspiration at the Roman Synod in 382. Add this to the fact that Jerome himself explicitly states in his prologue to the book of Judith that it had been fully accepted as Scripture by the Council of Nicaea.
Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. Denzinger 84
He then proceeds to name the so-called ‘Deutero-canonical’ books among those of the Bible. He doesn’t even simply leave them to the end, as he inserts Tobit before Esther and Baruch and the Letter of Jeremiah (which is part of the book of Baruch in the Catholic Canon) was understood as being part of the book of Jeremiah by the Latin Fathers at the time. It was only separated out into a separate book in the West in around the 9th century, despite it being already accepted as a separate book in the east. This is attested to in Athanasius’s Easter Letter where he includes the book of Baruch.

When every scripture scholar I have encountered who explained the canon mentioned this division. It was not on the conviction that these books were of secondary inspiration, but rather that it was possible that they had not been in use in the Temple at the time of Christ. The division was to show that these Scriptures were may not have been a part of the Pharisetical tradition but rather used by the Jews as a whole both in Israel and in the Diaspora. With modern archaeology, we have found that this may not have even been the case, as there are copies of both Tobit and Sirach as well as the Letter of Jeremiah from Baruch in Hebrew found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, when they had been thought to have only been written in Greek and accepted as Scripture by the Diaspora. The carbon dating of the fragments of these books date them to about 100BC. As such, the original division made by Pope Damasus is thrown into question simply by virtue of a lack of information. We believe the pope is infallible with regards to faith and morals and only faith and morals. This division is neither. It was a personal call on how to group certain books of the Bible based on faulty information.
 
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