Clergy a superior vocation?

[BarbaraTherese]

The Theology of the Body is not online. A new translation was just published but I have the old translation. I know I had this discussion with a priest friend of mine awhile ago and he told me to look in the Theology of the Body. I don’t know if I marked where it was but I will look as well.

Thank you, Joannm…Also, I will purchase a copy, dependant however on cost. I pay cash for all I need and don’t have a credit card which means I cannot pay online. Someone told me I dont need a credit card for PayPal - I did have a look but cannot figure it all out. I am next door to computer illiterate …my one computer talent is fast touch typing from many years as a private secretary and before computers. There was such a time back in the dark ages …Blessings, Peace - Barb

 

[Michael_Saint]

I would be very interested indeed to read anything official (encyclical, letter etc.) that states the religious life and priesthood are superior vocations. I did do a search but could not come up with anything, only three links I think that were Catholic reputable sites but not official statements from Rome - and these three sites stated that there is no’superior’ vocation. I will post these links if anyone is interested.
But something from Rome would settle and decide the matter in my mind anyway.
Blessings and Peace - Barb

Pius XII, in his 1954 Encyclical, “Sacra Virginitas”, paragraph 32, stated the following:
“This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as We have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent, and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church”. In other words, Jesus taught it, St. Paul taught it, all the Fathers and Doctors of the Church taught it, and the Council of Trent made it an infallible dogma of the Church. This latter point makes me wonder how this conversation could have gotten this far to begin with. The “superiority” of celibacy is an infallible Article of Faith! In fact, if you do NOT acknowledge it, the Council of Trent anathematizes you! Ouch!

Now, Barb, that is something from Rome - does that “settle it” for you in your mind?

The fact is: there is an OBJECTIVE reality and a SUBJECTIVE reality here. Objectively speaking, celibacy IS superior to marriage. Subjectively speaking, however the “superior” call for an individual is the one to which he has been called. The man or woman called to marriage who decides to become a priest or a nun has chosen the “inferior” vocation “subjectively” - the one he or she was not called to. The man or woman who is indeed called to marriage and who does marry, “subjectively speaking” embraced the “superior” call, even though “objectively speaking” he or she has embraced a call that is “inferior” to the call to celibacy. Does this make sense?

 

[Joannm]

Thank you, Joannm…Also, I will purchase a copy, dependant however on cost. I pay cash for all I need and don’t have a credit card which means I cannot pay online. Someone told me I dont need a credit card for PayPal - I did have a look but cannot figure it all out. I am next door to computer illiterate …my one computer talent is fast touch typing from many years as a private secretary and before computers. There was such a time back in the dark ages …Blessings, Peace - Barb

The section in the Theology of the Body where JPII speaks of the superiority of continence was the talk of April 7,1982, but that whole section from Mar 10, 1982july 21, 1982 treats the subject quite well.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The section in the Theology of the Body where JPII speaks of the superiority of continence was the talk of April 7,1982, but that whole section from Mar 10, 1982july 21, 1982 treats the subject quite well.

Thank you for the above. I have been giving my own concept thought and in any state of life, to fully commit oneself to The Gospel and only the Gospel is a superior state - and this can be achieved in any state of life, even marriage. I just think it is dangerous or ‘dangerous’ rather to state that continence or virginity of itself in any state is superior. It is the committment to The Gospel that is superior and if a person achieves this through continence/virginity, well and good - but it can be achieved in other states. Continence and virginity to my mind is made holy through Chastity…and Chastity can be attained in any state of life. I certainly have known married couples who are very holy and committed to the Gospel people and moreso than some nuns and priests I know…hence the state in life of itself, per se, to me anyway is not superior.
I have met priests and indeed nuns, religious sisters, who hold themselves as superior simply due to their state in life.
But I will get hold of “Theology of The Body” and have a read - I have a tight budge however to keep my eye on and when I can buy it is something I need ponder dependant of course on cost.

Blessings and Pax!..Barb

 

[johnnydigit]

i agree with the posts about superiority and the hierarchy.

i think those who are offended by it aren’t realizing that it doesn’t mean that it is a goal that everyone should reach. what is best for you is the vocation you are called to. you will be the happiest doing that and nothing else. i think we’ve all been taught that every state of life is equally good and we’re all loved by God equally, but this doesn’t mean there isn’t a hierarchy.

-the Seraphim angels are right next to God, while guardian angels are down here with us, but does that make one better than the other? no. you could say the Seraphim are superior, but you know all the choirs of angels are all equally important and loved by God.

-St. Francis is said to be the closest to Jesus, yet he was not an ordained priest. is St. Francis better than any other Saint? nope.

-Father, Son, Holy Spirit. you might view God the Father as the head honcho and superior, usually depicted at the top of the triangle in pictures, but we know all three are equally important in the Trinity. not to mention they’re all One.

-The Pope. i would say he is the most superior religious figure around and it would be an honor to be Pope, but i think the best and most perfect vocation is the one that God has yet to reveal to me.

in this pamphlet named “The Wonders of the Mass” i read that there is nothing more powerful, nothing greater than being able to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass, to help to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, to help to offer the Sacrifice on Calvary and feed the people with Jesus. albeit i am perfectly fine being able to scrub a toilet if that’s what God made me for, because i know i’d be at my happiest doing it and nothing else.

hope that helps somewhat.

 

[distracted]

What can be superior to God’s Will? Nothing whatsoever - not the priesthood per se and not a religious vocation per se. God has a call and vocation for every person and we are called to follow and fulfill His Will " If I should become a nun and that was never God’s Will for me - what gain? Does God play some sort of favourites calling some to a higher others to a lower state in life. Not at all - not at all! In God’s Will all is holy even if I am simply taking out the garbage as part of the duties of my state in life, willed by God.

A big Amen to that :clapping:

 

[distracted]

But none of them did. I think married life does present many challenges to faith and yes, it may be more difficult than the preisthood or religious life. I wonder if God grants parents more grace for having a more difficult time following God’s will. I know my faith has certainly been challenged, especilly when the kids were teenagers. I had often thought that nuns and priests have it easier.

So true - I’ve often also thought that they had it “easier” myself… although they don’t know the joys of parenthood either…

That thing about married life presenting challenges:
Jesus said to pick up our [challenges (crosses)] and follow Him…
In fact, could it be that the more challenges we have (…or even just FEEL we have :hypno: uch: , the higher level of Heaven we will achieve when we overcome those challenges (by doing the best we can, etc…)?

 

[distracted]

But none of them did. I think married life does present many challenges to faith and yes, it may be more difficult than the preisthood or religious life. I wonder if God grants parents more grace for having a more difficult time following God’s will. I know my faith has certainly been challenged, especilly when the kids were teenagers. I had often thought that nuns and priests have it easier.

When you feel sorry for yourself (and what parent of teenagers does not??? )… remember those like me who have lived completely alone for years and years. It’s OK some of the time but sometimes it’s really… well, Purgatory… and sometimes Hell… but then again, all vocations can be that…

 

[Leeta]

The Church ranks the vocation in this order:

NO. 1 the cloistered, contemplative religious life (both men and women)

No. 2 the priesthood

No 3 the married life

All are equal in dignity, but some are spiritually more fruitful. But all are not called to religious life or the priesthood and we are bound to obey the calling God gives us and seek holiness in that vocation. Yes, all are called to holiness. Many are not attaining it.

The cloistered religious life is spiritually the foundation of the Church Militant. They provide the strength, they better the conditions (through their prayers) and thus enable the priests and laity to go forth and battle for souls in the world. But all are necessary and all work together and complement each other. Some body parts are more vital than others to the life of the whole Body. The heart, brain, liver, etc. So with the cloistered religious life and flowing out of that come the other also vital parts like the priesthood and marriage.

I think marriage is one of the most difficult ones to attain holiness. Constantly having to forgive the one with whom you are one for the constant betrayals from little to big, is simply torture.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I think that “superior” is a misleading word and one on the purely personal level that I just cannot take to. Certainly the priesthood and religious life are states of perfection…by that I mean that every moment of such lifestyles are geared towards the attainment of perfection and in so many ways. Just to mention a few - they have at very least yearly directed retreats…conferences given by priests and nowadays nuns too. The rules enshrining their lifstyle, their every moment ideally, are the spiritual and moral rules of perfection and their lives are so structured so they can live out these rules etc.etc. religious life and the priesthood are states of perfection but this does not make those states per se superior. Nothing like a crying baby to interrupt one’s prayer time…well in a way. To respond to a crying child can be a prayer.

This could be interpreted wrongly. Take a mother with a child, or a Dad, changing a dirty nappy…now that is not directly geared towards attaining perfection; however if I am performing all my duties of my state in life as not only for my partner and my children but for love of God…then certainly my duties will lead to perfection and in anyone at all married and so responding.

Certainly to give up and make many sacrifices in order to ensure I live only for Christ and His Gospel is a totally commendable matter in choosing the religious life or priesthood, if that is the basis of my choice. To presuppose such is always the motivation is not so…and while I may not make those sacrifices if I marry this is not to say sacrifices will be and are involved in the married state that will lead to perfection and a true serving of Christ and His Gospel to the very highest of sanctity - even mysticism. It is not to say that the married state for example cannot lead to the equal perfection of any religious or priestly vocation, dependant of course on how these vocations are actually lived out.

Hence I agree that the priesthood and religious life are states of perfection…superior is a word I just dont like and especially in connection with vocations and God’s Will. If anything IS superior nothing transcends in superiority God’s Holy Will…and if God calls me to the married state is He calling me to something inferior. No way! Nothing is higher or transcends God’s Will.

There can be a sort of implied unstated inference that the privileged souls, or chosen souls privileged, are called to the states of perfection in the priesthood and religious life…while all other not so privileged souls can be consigned to the so called lessor/inferior states like marriage. To me that is nonesense. No matter what I am about nor in what state, if I am following God’s Will and striving to do so and especially if detached from what His Will may be…there is absolutely nothing higher than that on earth or in Heaven for God’s Will is one with Himself. I dont care what the vocation may be.

Blessings Peace and Joy…Barb

 

[contramundum7]

I think that “superior” is a misleading word and one on the purely personal level that I just cannot take to.

I totally agree.

There can be a sort of implied unstated inference that the privileged souls, or chosen souls privileged, are called to the states of perfection in the priesthood and religious life…while all other not so privileged souls can be consigned to the so called lessor/inferior states like marriage.

This bothers me also. Doing what God wants in our lives is what is superior. If i was to strive (red flag word already) to be a religious but God wanted me to get married, well, i would be in disobedience… and as the Scriptures tells us, only those who do the will of the Father will be saved.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I totally agree.

This bothers me also. Doing what God wants in our lives is what is superior. If i was to strive (red flag word already) to be a religious but God wanted me to get married, well, i would be in disobedience… and as the Scriptures tells us, only those who do the will of the Father will be saved.

I think (and when I think, it is spelt “fallible” for sure) that in stating that the religious life and priesthood are the states of perfection, which is stated by The Church, it got misinterpreted and misunderstood along the way and the phrase has been replaced by “superior” and a different meaning altogether.

Precisely (re your comment on doing the Will of The Father)…though religious life and priesthood are the states of perfection, perfection is a call on us all “be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect” and perfection is achievable in any state of life at all. Jesus, again as you have pointed out, when told that his Mum is in the crowd and wants to speak with him, says that those who do The Will of The Father are His relatives, which of course is primarily His mother who obeyed God’s Will in a remarkable way in her life.

Blessings Peace and Joy…Barb

 

[Sarah245]

In Spirituality Forum (“Most People Go to Hell”), the point is made (see Post #5) - in the site given in Post #5… that

*** most priests go to Hell. ***

Hard to believe, but mentioned in many of the saints’ writings… (St. Chrysostom… etc) I think a man should think very seriously b4 entering the priesthood because teachers (those in authority) have more of a responsibility for the souls of others.
I fear for some priests i know who do NOT teach orthodox Catholic beliefs… and are leading people astray, particularly YOUNG people who are easily influenced…

This is sad but is by no means a reason to discourage young men from entering the priesthood. To do so would be a huge mistake and not what these saints had in mind. The priests who fail and deviate from Catholic doctrine or their vows do it becasue they neglected to pray daily and reflect on God’s will and obey Him. Saint Augustin said if he met an angel and a preist, he would kneel before the priest first. Without priests, there are no sacraments. Any young men who feel called to the preisthood should be supported.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

This is sad but is by no means a reason to discourage young men from entering the priesthood. To do so would be a huge mistake and not what these saints had in mind. The priests who fail and deviate from Catholic doctrine or their vows do it becasue they neglected to pray daily and reflect on God’s will and obey Him. Saint Augustin said if he met an angel and a preist, he would kneel before the priest first. Without priests, there are no sacraments. Any young men who feel called to the preisthood should be supported.

… …

Wondering if you can actually quote the saints who have stated this and with links. We are not bound, of course, to believe what saints have stated nor written - nor their private revelations and I am quite sure The Church has never stated that most priests go to Hell. The lives of priests can be overwhelmingly hard and difficult and especially nowadays and while “man judges appearance, God sees the heart”. Priests need our prayers and support and encouragement, affirmation. If indeed most priests go to Hell, perhaps we will be in trouble too because we did not pray, support, encourage and affirm them making their lives even more difficult. I dont think anything can be stated with true assuredness. We will all go to Heaven through God’s Mercy which I pray will abandon no one and I hold that it does not. We live in Hope.

Barb

 

[Sarah245]

Barb,
I think you have me confused with a different post. I didn’t say the thing about priests going to hell, that was further back on page 1 or 2. I was reponding to that post, to say that when the saints said that they were not meaning to discourage men from entering the priesthood, and neither should we.
Sarah

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Barb,
I think you have me confused with a different post. I didn’t say the thing about priests going to hell, that was further back on page 1 or 2. I was reponding to that post, to say that when the saints said that they were not meaning to discourage men from entering the priesthood, and neither should we.
Sarah

My humble apologies, Sarah. …I sure did get things wrong, really wrong,. Thank you for pointing it out and I am glad you picked it up! …You can always send a PM to a Moderator and ask her to take my incorrect Post out since I totally misquote you by implication in the answer I gave. I have no objections whatsoever

God’s Blessings…regards with my apologies again…Barb

 

[Sarah245]

No problem Barb. I think we agree about that quote. I’m pretty sure some saints did say thay but that shouldn’t be used to discourage the priesthood, no way!