Climate Change - Serious Moral Issue

[4elise]

yeah, i think we’re ok on that front. while we seem to disagree on most(not all) of this topic this has been one of the most civil threads ive see in awhile-thanks for that.

no need to apologize, passion is ok and i dont think you have taken it to far…yet

but yeah we both have numerous contradictory sources. i see the increase in artic ice as emprical data that doesnt need defending, you dont. oh well. but really i think the key is in our point of agreement-that we are called to be good stewards. honestly i think as long as we do that from here on out regardless of the past that the world and its peoples will be just fine.

thanks for this - it is hard isn’t it to keep the tone on these threads - someone told me that they left CAF because the thought that the annonomity made people behave badly, post things they would never say to anyone’s face - I think that you said it exactly right - “we are called to be good stewards… honestly i think as long as we do that from here on out regardless of the past that the world and its peoples will be just fine” — It is my belief that being a good steward is also a call to action - thank you my friend

 

[aggiecatholic05]

thanks for this - it is hard isn’t it to keep the tone on these threads - someone told me that they left CAF because the thought that the annonomity made people behave badly, post things they would never say to anyone’s face

well in fairness i think thats the internet in general, not just CAF, but yeah it sure happens here too.

I

think that you said it exactly right - “we are called to be good stewards… honestly i think as long as we do that from here on out regardless of the past that the world and its peoples will be just fine” — It is my belief that being a good steward is also a call to action - thank you my friend

now here i agree completely. while i dont think global warming is all/any(probably at Least some) man-made, i do agree we as a race arent doing our all to be good stewards. to me that means we need action.

to me the main problem is on both sides, ther are those that want this to be completely idelogical and dismiss the other side. both have cult-like fringes.

me personally i belong to 2 conservation societies, hopefully more in the future. for now, DU and C.C.A. if you arent familar look them up they do some mighty good work on the ground and in the government.

 

[mapleoak]

It is hard to take any of the Climate Change alarmists seriously. Just 30 years ago, we learned about the next ice age in school. All the"experts" were sure that we would all be frozen in just a few years.

Now, they are sure we are going to fry.

These experts can’t predict the weather for next week, but they know for sure, this time at least, that we are in the middle of global warming.

Since global warming didn’t pan out for them, “climate change” is the new cop-out for “we really have no idea what were talking about.”

 

[mapleoak]

I’ve responded to another post talking about this - issues of water availability, loss of coastal areas, increases in diseases like malaria - those of us in the US will be impacted, but there is no way we will feel this the same way the poor of the rest of the world will - and I think we are called to care for all our brothers and sisters and consider how our actions will impact them. Peace

I would think climate change would indeed affect the poor more than the wealthy. For example, if it causes farmers’ harvests to be more bountiful, than availability of food would be greater, thus helping the poor. It doesn’t follow that a changing climate spells doom for the poor. That seems to be nothing but an appeal to emotional sensibilities for support by those pushing the climate change agenda.

 

[Trader]

I think it is incredibly arrogant for people to say that climate should remain exactly as it was 50 years ago, or at any other particular time. Do they have no sense of history? Where I live in northern Indiana the whole area has been covered with glaciers several times. It may be selfish of me, but I think that would be a bad thing to happen again in my lifetime.

If our temperature would rise by a degree or two, I would use less energy and pollute less because I use a lot more energy for heating in the winter than I use for coolling in the summer. The effect of that rise in temperature would be different for southern Florida, but who decides that southern Florida is more important than northern Indiana?

If climate change means you can’t grow grapes for wine in California, is that more important than the increased agricultural productivity for vast areas of Russia and Canada?

There are some things we should be doing, no matter what the next climate change theory brings us. We should not waste fossil fuels. They have some wonderful uses and I would like to see more of those fuels available for future generations. If world coastal area are potentially endangered, maybe we should restrict additional development in those areas now. At the very least people who choose to live in endangered areas should bear the cost of their choice in the price of their property insurance, rather than asking everyone else to bear the cost of their choice.

Lastly, even the great Al Gore cannot tell us what the ideal level of atmospheric CO2 is, or how we could achieve it. Maybe the United Nations could pass a resolution that bans volcanic activity.

 

[4elise]

So it seems I am not the one who can make the case for the needs of the poor on issues of climate change / global warming here at CAF - It seems that everyone has pretty much dug in their heals on their positions, believe sources that only confirm existing beliefs, etc…- of course I’m including myself on this point -

I believe it is happening and I believe I MUST make changes in my life to address this.
Many do not believe it is happening - therefore don’t see any need for change.

     :shrug:

I had thought that at CAF by adding information from the USCCB, the Catholic Coalition for Climate Change, the Jesuits, the Franciscans… it would have some sway - obviously I was wrong.

 

[4elise]

I think it is incredibly arrogant for people to say that climate should remain exactly as it was 50 years ago, or at any other particular time. Do they have no sense of history? Where I live in northern Indiana the whole area has been covered with glaciers several times. It may be selfish of me, but I think that would be a bad thing to happen again in my lifetime.

If our temperature would rise by a degree or two, I would use less energy and pollute less because I use a lot more energy for heating in the winter than I use for coolling in the summer. The effect of that rise in temperature would be different for southern Florida, but who decides that southern Florida is more important than northern Indiana?

If climate change means you can’t grow grapes for wine in California, is that more important than the increased agricultural productivity for vast areas of Russia and Canada?

There are some things we should be doing, no matter what the next climate change theory brings us. We should not waste fossil fuels. They have some wonderful uses and I would like to see more of those fuels available for future generations. If world coastal area are potentially endangered, maybe we should restrict additional development in those areas now. At the very least people who choose to live in endangered areas should bear the cost of their choice in the price of their property insurance, rather than asking everyone else to bear the cost of their choice.

Lastly, even the great Al Gore cannot tell us what the ideal level of atmospheric CO2 is, or how we could achieve it. Maybe the United Nations could pass a resolution that bans volcanic activity.

The world is so much bigger than the US - the endangered coastal areas I was refering to are places like the Marshall Islands, Haiti, and other poverty areas that are going to be impacted first by rising sea levels (not the outer banks or Malibu ) - the change that impacts farmers WE will cope with in the US and in most industrailized countries - but it is Africa, places in Latin America that will be hardest hit - are already struggling - anyway - as I’ve said - I am obviously not the one with the ability to make that case here. Peace

 

[Ender]

A new poll shows that the vast majority of Catholics believe that Climate Change is a serious moral issue.

If this is true then it means that the vast majority of Catholics have no idea what constitutes a moral issue. Not only is climate change not a serious moral issue it is not a moral issue of any kind.

This is something I certainly agree with - the dialogue on these forums about climate change / global warming — are often very charged - but I believe this is because we do believe that it is a moral issue

Debates between Yankees fans and Red Sox fans are also very charged; does this mean they are moral issues as well? If you phrase the issue as whether man should be a good steward of the earth then I think most people would rightly answer “yes”, but that’s not how this card is being played. Calling “climate change” a moral issue is nothing more than charging those who don’t believe man is responsible for it with being little more than immoral trolls.

I don’t believe that man has had any appreciable affect on the climate. I may be wrong but unless I’ve missed something the Church doesn’t consider it immoral to be wrong. So were, exactly, is the moral issue here?

Ender

 

[4elise]

If this is true then it means that the vast majority of Catholics have no idea what constitutes a moral issue. Not only is climate change not a serious moral issue it is not a moral issue of any kind.

Debates between Yankees fans and Red Sox fans are also very charged; does this mean they are moral issues as well? If you phrase the issue as whether man should be a good steward of the earth then I think most people would rightly answer “yes”, but that’s not how this card is being played. Calling “climate change” a moral issue is nothing more than charging those who don’t believe man is responsible for it with being little more than immoral trolls.

I don’t believe that man has had any appreciable affect on the climate. I may be wrong but unless I’ve missed something the Church doesn’t consider it immoral to be wrong. So were, exactly, is the moral issue here?

Ender

Take a look at the site for the Catholic Coalition for Climate Change, of which the USCCB is one of the sponsors - if you are open to the possibility that you are wrong - the moral issue is the impact climate change, as well as any approach to address the issue, will have on the most vulnerable - the poor - and NOT just the poor of the United States - this is the moral issue.

 

[mapleoak]

If this is true then it means that the vast majority of Catholics have no idea what constitutes a moral issue. Not only is climate change not a serious moral issue it is not a moral issue of any kind.

This would seem to be quite evident from the past presidential election.

 

[mapleoak]

Take a look at the site for the Catholic Coalition for Climate Change, of which the USCCB is one of the sponsors - if you are open to the possibility that you are wrong - the moral issue is the impact climate change, as well as any approach to address the issue, will have on the most vulnerable - the poor - and NOT just the poor of the United States - this is the moral issue.

The problem is that even if it were proven that the climate changes (of course it does) whether naturally or from something caused by man, that this is automatically detrimental rather beneficial to the poor, is nothing but pure speculation.

 

[po18guy]

So it seems I am not the one who can make the case for the needs of the poor on issues of climate change / global warming here at CAF - It seems that everyone has pretty much dug in their heals on their positions, believe sources that only confirm existing beliefs, etc…- of course I’m including myself on this point -

I believe it is happening and I believe I MUST make changes in my life to address this.
Many do not believe it is happening - therefore don’t see any need for change.

     :shrug:

I had thought that at CAF by adding information from the USCCB, the Catholic Coalition for Climate Change, the Jesuits, the Franciscans… it would have some sway - obviously I was wrong.

The poor of this world are those who cut the forests and burn the wood because they have no other method of warming themselves, or for cooking. However, to spread democracy to them and allow them a voice will then bring modern energy production. But, the doom sayers tell us that will increase the carbon footprint and hasten the end of the earth. So, “selective reduction” (annihilation) of large human populations will be put forth as the end solution. The UN already has such an aim. We, the intelligent, the educated, the erudite, must care for the earth by eliminating the unwashed poor who are destroying it. No way to save the earth other than population control. The evil one delights in such Faustian nightmares.

Notice that preoccupation with climate change produces anxiety and worry instead of faith that God is in charge?

It is a serious moral issue to fight those who make man the problem and seek to reduce or eliminate him.

 

[po18guy]

This would seem to be quite evident from the past presidential election.

AMEN! All those aborted humans sure won’t be contributing to climate change! It’s a twofer!

As to the USCCB, I don;t believe they can reach agreement on anything. I specifically distrust their conclusions in many political-made-moral issues. They cannot even condemn a Catholic institution honoring the greatest promoter of abortion in world history.

 

[4elise]

The problem is that even if it were proven that the climate changes (of course it does) whether naturally or from something caused by man, that this is automatically detrimental rather beneficial to the poor, is nothing but pure speculation.

What isn’t speculation is that IF sea levels rise many of the world’s poor will be displaced.
What isn’t speculation is that IF global warming trends continue SOMETHING needs to be done about the availability and potability of water for the world’s poor.
What isn’t speculation is that diseases like malaria are on the rise due to changes already taking place

So - I guess if you don’t believe it is happening OR that - IF IT IS - you can do anything to stop it … the issue lies in dealing with the needs of the poor ------- this really has been the point I’ve tried to make -

SINCE I believe, having done a lot of reading too, and believe what the vast majority of those involved in the science do as well that:

1. Global Climate change is real and
2. The anthropogenic causes are also real

THEREFORE I am compelled to do something about it personally and in every other way I can as a person of faith ----

I had hoped that CAF would be a place where there could be discussions on the impact to the world’s poor and our responsibility - but it seems that whenever this topic comes up those who chose not to believe - for what ever reason - become the posters who claim that those behind are pro-choice, or actually population control nuts, or worship Al Gore — I for one am none of these ---- My Catholic faith compels me to consider my actions in light of the needs of the most vulnerable - not ONLY the unborn, but the poor of the world. ----- sigh -----

 

[po18guy]

What isn’t speculation is that IF sea levels rise many of the world’s poor will be displaced.
What isn’t speculation is that IF global warming trends continue SOMETHING needs to be done about the availability and potability of water for the world’s poor.
What isn’t speculation is that diseases like malaria are on the rise due to changes already taking place

So - I guess if you don’t believe it is happening OR that - IF IT IS - you can do anything to stop it … the issue lies in dealing with the needs of the poor ------- this really has been the point I’ve tried to make -

SINCE I believe, having done a lot of reading too, and believe what the vast majority of those involved in the science do as well that:

1. Global Climate change is real and
2. The anthropogenic causes are also real

THEREFORE I am compelled to do something about it personally and in every other way I can as a person of faith ----

I had hoped that CAF would be a place where there could be discussions on the impact to the world’s poor and our responsibility - but it seems that whenever this topic comes up those who chose not to believe - for what ever reason - become the posters who claim that those behind are pro-choice, or actually population control nuts, or worship Al Gore — I for one am none of these ---- My Catholic faith compels me to consider my actions in light of the needs of the most vulnerable - not ONLY the unborn, but the poor of the world. ----- sigh -----

Methinks you worry waaaay too much about things that you personally have zero control over. God, however, does. Tell Him about it while you recycle and try to save gas - just as the rest of us do.

Consider sponsoring a poor child or elderly through, for example: cfcausa.org/aboutus/index.html. That is a difference WE can make.

 

[4elise]

Methinks you worry waaaay too much about things that you personally have zero control over. God, however, does. Tell Him about it while you recycle and try to save gas - just as the rest of us do.

Consider sponsoring a poor child or elderly through, for example: cfcausa.org/aboutus/index.html. That is a difference WE can make.

Sponsorship is certainly a worthy recommendation:thumbsup: Another organization I am happy to recommend uaocf.org/ - I know the priest and know this is very well managed -

But to your point, don’t you think that people like the founders of Christian Foundation for Children and Aging Jim, Bud and Bob Hentzen, their sister Nadine Pearce and their good friend Jerry Tolle may also have been accused about worrying waaaay too much?? — Most know about the poverty in Guatemala, and may pray for the poor but prayers alone don’t solve the problems - they took action on the part of the poor - the story of one of them who walked from Kansas to Guatemala at 60 is very touching - but I think that most would consider that WAAAAY too much ----

So — prayers, sponsorships, and anything else we can do… I’m all for it!!!

 

[JimG]

CFCA–the Christian Foundation for Children and Aging–is a good organization which does good work.

But what do they have to do with climate change? If we support CFCA are we supporting political activity with regard to global warming, or are we supporting their work among the poor?

Whenever I go to websites such as Catholic Coalition on Climate Change, I look in vain for some evidence of what they are talking about. If sea levels are going to rise, by how much will they rise–5 centimeters, 6 inches, 5 feet? I’ve seen some ridiculous claims made in this regard with nothing to indicate how those numbers were arrived at. And then I’ve seen some other estimates which amount to “not much.”

We know that climate does change and has changed in the past and will change in the future. There will eventually be a new ice age. What we don’t know is how much effect humans can exert on the climate even if they want to. How much change will result from CO2 levels compared to solar activity?

We also know that the global economy is headed for a fall, which will definitely affect the poor greatly. And we know that massive amounts of carbon tax will exacerbate that decline and hurt the poor even more. So how much are we willing to hurt the poor in order hopefully decrease atmospheric CO2 marginally, and possibly have some effect on the climate?

 

[4elise]

CFCA–the Christian Foundation for Children and Aging–is a good organization which does good work.

But what do they have to do with climate change?

I believe it was brought up as ‘something I could do’ because the poster didn’t think I could do anything about climate change - and that I worried waaay to much.

We also know that the global economy is headed for a fall, which will definitely affect the poor greatly. And we know that massive amounts of carbon tax will exacerbate that decline and hurt the poor even more. So how much are we willing to hurt the poor in order hopefully decrease atmospheric CO2 marginally, and possibly have some effect on the climate?

Sorry - I haven’t gotten those memos yet - don’t know that the global economy is headed for a fall, obviously that greed that is responsible for the current crisis has hit the poor the hardest.

And I’m not convinced that carbon tax is the answer either - in fact I would prefer to see the emphasis on moving to renewable energy (wind and solar) and making that available at a low cost ---- I am also not in favor of using food crops to create bio fuel.
I think there are answers that will require both an investment and creativity - and I don’t know a better place to find these than here in the US -

 

[ahollars]

Why would anyone want to decrease CO2 in the air when that is exactly what is needed for crops to grow? I guess people who think CO2 is a toxin missed that part of science class.

Climate change is inevitable. There is no definable period or condition that the Earth has been in that could be identified as ideal. Climates will always change, deserts grow, and yes, deserts recede to prairies. Mankind survived the last ice age, one that obviously wasn’t caused by human activity, without the benefit of advance technology.

The world isn’t going anywhere. We are!!!

 

[po18guy]

Sponsorship is certainly a worthy recommendation:thumbsup: Another organization I am happy to recommend uaocf.org/ - I know the priest and know this is very well managed -

But to your point, don’t you think that people like the founders of Christian Foundation for Children and Aging Jim, Bud and Bob Hentzen, their sister Nadine Pearce and their good friend Jerry Tolle may also have been accused about worrying waaaay too much?? — Most know about the poverty in Guatemala, and may pray for the poor but prayers alone don’t solve the problems - they took action on the part of the poor - the story of one of them who walked from Kansas to Guatemala at 60 is very touching - but I think that most would consider that WAAAAY too much ----

So — prayers, sponsorships, and anything else we can do… I’m all for it!!!

“Climate change” and “global warming” are hotly debated in the scientific community. There is legitimate academic dissent. It is far from settled as to causes and effects. It is neither addressed nor “solved” on an individual level. It requires much more study, and it would be a shocking waste of resources to sink trillions into something on the hope that we may then cease worrying about it. Poverty and illness are concrete, with the causes and effects known. The founders of CFCA chose to do something tangible about a universally recognized problem. Saving children and the elderly is accomplished one soul at a time.

Trust those who improve and save the lives of the poor and elderly. Question those who seek power over your life, with the ultimate goal of removing souls from this earth. God has always provided and will always provide. Trust the Church and distrust the for-profit media and other organizations on this one. As I type, Father Mitch Pacwa is questioning the climatic panic artists, while mentioning that “climate change” is something we actually look forward to. This matter is not settled. That’s why my money goes where the results are measurable.