Closet orthodoxy in eastern catholicism

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Dear Hesychios. Hello my dear brother in Christ. šŸ‘‹
I’m hoping that I misunderstand your position here. Are you saying that you view Eastern Catholicism merely as an instrument for proselytizing Roman Catholics into Orthodoxy? This would imply that true union/communion between Rome and Orthodoxy on the larger level would be completely impossible unless either one or the other Church were willing to completely forgo their unique identity. 😦
I was being largely facetious. šŸ˜›

I will point out though that after becoming Orthodox myself, I have met a surprising number of former EC (and former Latins who spent time with the EC) who preceded me in the switch, including men who are now Orthodox priests and deacons in my home area (not in China, in Illinois :)). I really am grateful for them.

No, I do not see the EC as a tool to poach Latin Catholics. I do not see unity possible without some interior change in the Latin Catholic church, so that means those Orthodox minded Latin Catholics are ultimately going to have to stay put. I suppose that makes them White Martyrs.That would be a great loss to the Orthodox for the present, but a great gain for everyone later when we finally reconcile.
 
Please note that I am speaking only of my experience in the Ruthernian Rite in the US.

For the last two years I have been a Catechist in my Eastern Catholic parish in north east Pennsylvania. I have had multiple discussions with the other catechists about the size of the Eastern Christian formation program - a grand total of six students. The MAJOR reason for this is the lack of attendance by people my age - 20’s to 40’s. That is when most people are having families. They are not in the Eastern Catholic Parish either because they are not practicing Catholicism at all or they have been absorbed into a Latin parish, for reasons I think I have already discussed.

Also, my pastor has noted that we are one of the better attended parishes in the area, and that is not all that great. Unless people my age return in mass, I am not sure what the 20 years survival of the parish will be.

I think that overall, increase in attendance has been spotty in the Ruthenian Rite. That is my experience. My parish that I was at in West Virginia had a lot of infusion of young blood from the west because of its Proximity to a Catholic university. Obviously I have nothing against that, because I was Latin once. however, it is even more important that people who were born to it return to it where they can. Sometimes this is geographically impossible if they move to where there are jobs, but no EC parishes.

Just because a Pope or other Church leader has encouraged that somethings should happen, does not make that thing a reality. I think that it is safe to say that many Ruthenian parishes in the US have precipitously shrank from the time that the Pope wrote his encyclical. One of the other catechists is in her early to mid-30’s, just older than me, and many of those whom she went through catechesis with have left. In fact she is pretty sure that she is the only person here age in her family still attending any eastern parish. She herself did not go for a while.
… we are supposed to be saving the Eastern Rite of our Church. My understanding is that we have had an explosion of attendance or Easter Rite in the US. Is this not true?
You observations are similar to mine.

As to an explosion of attendance, I think not, at least not in north America. It is largely through immigration (and disaffected Latin Catholics exploring options) that the growth may be seen. Typically there is serious leakage by the third generation with acculturation. ā€˜Americanism’ has finally triumphed, in that the Latin Catholic church is generally now accepted as a native institution (Know Nothings are spinning in their graves!) by most people, not foreign, while the Orthodox and EC are still perceived as essentially foreign (although they may be anything but, in many cases).

Father Loya used to remark that he was the youngest priest in his diocese (Parma), when he was about fifty years old. That was scary. I think a few new younger priests were pulled in from outside since then, but not nearly enough to meet projections.

The lay enrollments for the Ruthenians in the Pittsburgh Metropolia do not look too good either, so far it is a demographic collapse in the making.
 
You observations are similar to mine.

As to an explosion of attendance, I think not, at least not in north America. It is largely through immigration (and disaffected Latin Catholics exploring options) that the growth may be seen. Typically there is serious leakage by the third generation with acculturation. ā€˜Americanism’ has finally triumphed, in that the Latin Catholic church is generally now accepted as a native institution (Know Nothings are spinning in their graves!) by most people, not foreign, while the Orthodox and EC are still perceived as essentially foreign (although they may be anything but, in many cases).

Father Loya used to remark that he was the youngest priest in his diocese (Parma), when he was about fifty years old. That was scary. I think a few new younger priests were pulled in from outside since then, but not nearly enough to meet projections.

The lay enrollments for the Ruthenians in the Pittsburgh Metropolia do not look too good either, so far it is a demographic collapse in the making.
I know of at least one man who was ordained in the last 5 or 7 years for Parma. It only stands out in my memory, because he was the first married vocation in forever. There was at least one other person who I knew from that eparchy who was married and going to the seminary, but he did not finish. I don’t know all the reasons, and I am not aware as to his having returned. I also know another young man who is now a priest in the Pittsburgh Metropolia. For the last 7-8 years there have been anywhere from 0-3 men in year (meaning year 1, year 2 …) at the seminary. It’s not much, but it is something.

Sadly, due to both the decline in attendance and really low vocations - but mostly attendance - do not see how the Ruthenian rite will survive the next 20 or 30 years without seeing a drastic reduction in the number of parishes. There may be a few dotted here and there, but the Rite could become so small that it will virtually disappear in the US.
 
I was being largely facetious. šŸ˜›

I will point out though that after becoming Orthodox myself, I have met a surprising number of former EC (and former Latins who spent time with the EC) who preceded me in the switch, including men who are now Orthodox priests and deacons in my home area (not in China, in Illinois :)). I really am grateful for them.

No, I do not see the EC as a tool to poach Latin Catholics. I do not see unity possible without some interior change in the Latin Catholic church, so that means those Orthodox minded Latin Catholics are ultimately going to have to stay put. I suppose that makes them White Martyrs.That would be a great loss to the Orthodox for the present, but a great gain for everyone later when we finally reconcile.
When I visited the Uniontown sisters of St Basil, one of the sisters there told me that many who come over to the eastern rite from the Latin rite do tend to move on to Orthodoxy, because as they explore all Eastern traditions, they want to live them out as completely as they can. Because of this, the Eastern Rite is a stepping stone to orthodoxy from many latin Catholics who change rites. This is true among my friends some of whom became eastern catholic and some of whom became Orthodox. I remain Eastern Catholic. For myself, I would rather see unity and a greater expression of the Eastern traditions in the EC church I attended.
 
Originally Posted by Lypher View Post
I thought that Pope Paul VI in Orientalium Ecclesiarum basically was pushing hard to save the Eastern Rites?
Also, one further note. I realized as I woke up this morning. Orientalium Ecclesiarum is a document of Vatican II, not specifically of Pope Paul VI. I was tired last might and missed this. 😊 It is the only part of Vatican II to even deal with the Eastern Churches.
 
Is there any particular reason why I cannot find Lypher’s original post to me? Anyone? Anyone?
 
Sadly, due to both the decline in attendance and really low vocations - but mostly attendance - do not see how the Ruthenian rite will survive the next 20 or 30 years without seeing a drastic reduction in the number of parishes. There may be a few dotted here and there, but the Rite could become so small that it will virtually disappear in the US.
Regarding the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, I had a look at the Catholic-Hierarchy website which extracts membership numbers from the Annuario Pontificio. Some years (1970 & 1980) are clearly problematic (because one or another eparchy is not reported) so I deleted those years but the trend looks like this:

Year/Population

1949: 299,305
  • 165 priests - [1,814 laypersons/priest]
1976: 278,766
  • 256 priests - [1,089 laypersons/priest]
1990: 261,538
  • 265 priests - 987 laypersons/priest]
2000: 125,057
  • 240 priests - 521 laypersons/priest]
2004: 99,381
  • 230 priests - 432 laypersons/priest]
 
Sadly, due to both the decline in attendance and really low vocations - but mostly attendance - do not see how the Ruthenian rite will survive the next 20 or 30 years without seeing a drastic reduction in the number of parishes. There may be a few dotted here and there, but the Rite could become so small that it will virtually disappear in the US.
Regarding the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, I had a look at the Catholic-Hierarchy website which extracts membership numbers from the Annuario Pontificio. Some years (1970 & 1980) are clearly problematic (because one or another eparchy is not reported) so I deleted those years but the trend looks like this:

Year/Population

1949: 299,305
  • 165 priests - [1,814 laypersons/priest]
1976: 278,766
  • 256 priests - [1,089 laypersons/priest]
1990: 261,538
  • 265 priests - 987 laypersons/priest]
2000: 125,057
  • 240 priests - 521 laypersons/priest]
2004: 99,381
  • 230 priests - 432 laypersons/priest]
The population is going into a rather steep decline, and it appears then the base for future vocations is shrinking. The change in number of priests will likely follow the same curve as the population.

It should be noted that most of the priestly vocations were cultivated during the mandatory celibacy era, although some of the positions were filled with non Ruthenian priests holding dual faculties.

To me it seems there is a real possibility that at some point the Holy Father will not name a hierarchy for the church if it does not turn this situation around.
 
I think Eastern Catholics and Eastern-leaning Latin Catholics join EO’xy not just to live out the Eastern praxis and spirituality more fully. IMO, one can do that in the Catholic Communion just as easily.

I believe the real reason that some Eastern Catholics or Eastern-leaning Latin Catholics would join the Eastern Orthodox Church is because Eastern Orthodox catechesis is filled with ā€œanti-Catholicā€ rhetoric. I use the word ā€œanti-Catholicā€ only for lack of a better term. I understand ā€œanti-Catholicā€ to describe a malicious and close-minded attitude, and I don’t think EO catechesis is ā€œanti-Catholicā€ in that sense, but only in the sense that it promotes a wrong, if innocently ignorant, perception of Catholic teachings.

Catholic catechesis, on the other hand, does not contain such ā€œanti-Orthodoxā€ rhetoric, because Catholics are taught that the Orthodox are their closest brethren, and the only difference is the papacy. Catholic catechesis is on the whole focused on refuting Protestant errors. Unfortunately, Catholic catechesis is sorely deficient in presenting and demonstrating the distinctions and complementariness between Western, Eastern, and Oriental theologies/spiritualities/ideologies, etc.

So when an Eastern (or Oriental) Catholic or Eastern/Oriental-leaning Latin Catholic first reads about these so-called differences between the Latins and the Easterns/Orientals, they are shocked, and probably imagine that the Catholic Church was hiding something from them. They probably feel the Spirit has revealed something new to them, and they must follow the path of this new private revelation. They are never prepared for the onslaught of new information that Orthodox catechesis presents to them on the ā€œerrorsā€ of the Latin Church.

I mean, we are all aware of several of our EO brethren who participate here in CAF who used to be Catholic. Many might also recall dear Father Ambrose, who was also a former Catholic. The interesting thing readers might notice is just how often we have to contradict our EO brethren - former Catholics - on their misunderstanding of the Catholic Faith.

IMO, this proves my theory that EC’s and Eastern-leaning Latins become EO not in order to live out their Eastern identity more fully, but primarily because of a process of indoctrination that somehow convinces them that there can be no rapport or complementariness between East and West.

Blessings
 
I think Eastern Catholics and Eastern-leaning Latin Catholics join EO’xy not just to live out the Eastern praxis and spirituality more fully. IMO, one can do that in the Catholic Communion just as easily.

I believe the real reason that some Eastern Catholics or Eastern-leaning Latin Catholics would join the Eastern Orthodox Church is because Eastern Orthodox catechesis is filled with ā€œanti-Catholicā€ rhetoric. I use the word ā€œanti-Catholicā€ only for lack of a better term. I understand ā€œanti-Catholicā€ to describe a malicious and close-minded attitude, and I don’t think EO catechesis is ā€œanti-Catholicā€ in that sense, but only in the sense that it promotes a wrong, if innocently ignorant, perception of Catholic teachings.

Catholic catechesis, on the other hand, does not contain such ā€œanti-Orthodoxā€ rhetoric, because Catholics are taught that the Orthodox are their closest brethren, and the only difference is the papacy. Catholic catechesis is on the whole focused on refuting Protestant errors. Unfortunately, Catholic catechesis is sorely deficient in presenting and demonstrating the distinctions and complementariness between Western, Eastern, and Oriental theologies/spiritualities/ideologies, etc.

So when an Eastern (or Oriental) Catholic or Eastern/Oriental-leaning Latin Catholic first reads about these so-called differences between the Latins and the Easterns/Orientals, they are shocked, and probably imagine that the Catholic Church was hiding something from them. They probably feel the Spirit has revealed something new to them, and they must follow the path of this new private revelation. They are never prepared for the onslaught of new information that Orthodox catechesis presents to them on the ā€œerrorsā€ of the Latin Church.

I mean, we are all aware of several of our EO brethren who participate here in CAF who used to be Catholic. Many might also recall dear Father Ambrose, who was also a former Catholic. The interesting thing readers might notice is just how often we have to contradict our EO brethren - former Catholics - on their misunderstanding of the Catholic Faith.

IMO, this proves my theory that EC’s and Eastern-leaning Latins become EO not in order to live out their Eastern identity more fully, but primarily because of a process of indoctrination that somehow convinces them that there can be no rapport or complementariness between East and West.

Blessings
Hello Mardukum,

Yes, I would guess that there may be that element for some or many who go in that direction at some point. I can not say though that that is true for my friends to date. I met one person recently who was an Anglican convert into Eastern Catholicism, and he left over the RDL. Kinda SSPXy, eh?

I could never be attracted to anti-Catholic rhetoric or misconception of Latin teachings, so if someone was there may be a more serious issue beyond being attracted to being more Eastern. I went to Penn State, and there Gary the Willard (Building) Preacher was a protestant convert to the OCA. I think that he had discovered tradition, but was still so anti-Catholic, that he could not conceive of becoming Catholic.

I am all for living out fully the Eastern tradition as an Eastern Catholic. šŸ™‚

I think that as far as anti-Orthodoxy, it depends on your formation as a Latin Catholic. Certainly for me it was not present in my Catechesis, and this would be by and large the expereince of most Latin Catholics. However, I would not be surprised if anti-Orthodoxy did exist in some more traditional circles. I once went to the TR near home with a visiting friend, and the husband of his friend there was very obviously disgusted that I would change from the Latin Rite to an Eastern Catholic Rite. I believe he really felt that the Tridentine Rite/Latin Church was superior to all others, even though he thought that the DL was beautiful. He had at one time been in the SSPX.

God Bless,

R.
 
Regarding the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, I had a look at the Catholic-Hierarchy website which extracts membership numbers from the Annuario Pontificio. Some years (1970 & 1980) are clearly problematic (because one or another eparchy is not reported) so I deleted those years but the trend looks like this:

Year/Population

1949: 299,305
  • 165 priests - [1,814 laypersons/priest]
1976: 278,766
  • 256 priests - [1,089 laypersons/priest]
1990: 261,538
  • 265 priests - 987 laypersons/priest]
2000: 125,057
  • 240 priests - 521 laypersons/priest]
2004: 99,381
  • 230 priests - 432 laypersons/priest]
The population is going into a rather steep decline, and it appears then the base for future vocations is shrinking. The change in number of priests will likely follow the same curve as the population.

It should be noted that most of the priestly vocations were cultivated during the mandatory celibacy era, although some of the positions were filled with non Ruthenian priests holding dual faculties.

To me it seems there is a real possibility that at some point the Holy Father will not name a hierarchy for the church if it does not turn this situation around.
An interesting thought given our current loss of our Metropolitan.

My priest in PA is bi-ritual.

Thanks for the numbers 😃
 
I think Eastern Catholics and Eastern-leaning Latin Catholics join EO’xy not just to live out the Eastern praxis and spirituality more fully.
It is definitely to live out the Eastern praxis more fully.šŸ™‚
IMO, one can do that in the Catholic Communion just as easily.
I think not. 😃
I understand ā€œanti-Catholicā€ to describe a malicious and close-minded attitude, and I don’t think EO catechesis is ā€œanti-Catholicā€ in that sense, but only in the sense that it promotes a wrong, if innocently ignorant, perception of Catholic teachings…
Anti-Catholic is a horrible term to use. The Orthodox teaching wiil sometimes point out the errors and innovations of Rome–that is a good thing–we need to know where things went askew–and why.
Catholic catechesis is on the whole focused on refuting Protestant errors.
Exactly! You point out protestant errors—and Holy Orthodoxy points out RC errors.
they are shocked, and probably imagine that the Catholic Church was hiding something from them.
:hmmm:
IMO, this proves my theory that EC’s and Eastern-leaning Latins become EO not in order to live out their Eastern identity more fully, but primarily because of a process of indoctrination
Proves **your **theory?!? :rotfl:
Your theory is completely erroneous and deficient. Every RC/EC convert I have spoken to did not take their conversion lightly–and they did not somehow get indoctrinated or brainwashed by the ā€œmind control EO Churchā€ā€“LOL! The conversion happened after much study and prayer and discernment–sometimes over a period of many years.

Talk to us again when the honeymoon is over. šŸ‘‹
 
An interesting thought given our current loss of our Metropolitan.

My priest in PA is bi-ritual.

Thanks for the numbers 😃
The Annuario Pontifico numbers (2008) for the USA Ruthenian membership are:

1990 268161
2000 142820
2005 99381
2007 96761
2008 94829
 
I could never be attracted to anti-Catholic rhetoric
I must agree that anti-anything is no reason to convert. I was always taken aback as a Ruthenian Catholic when the Ruthenians were anti-Ukrainian Catholic…and the Ukrainian Catholics were anti Roman Catholic…and the Roman Catholics hated us because they refused to believe we were not Orthodox…and the Ruthenians became incensed at the Melkites because they used the word ā€œOrthodoxā€ in the DL…etc., etc., etcā€¦šŸ˜‰
 
I must agree that anti-anything is no reason to convert. I was always taken aback as a Ruthenian Catholic when the Ruthenians were anti-Ukrainian Catholic…and the Ukrainian Catholics were anti Roman Catholic…and the Roman Catholics hated us because they refused to believe we were not Orthodox…and the Ruthenians became incensed at the Melkites because they used the word ā€œOrthodoxā€ in the DL…etc., etc., etcā€¦šŸ˜‰
LOL, so true. We need to reduce the bad blood, not add to it! :eek:
 
The Annuario Pontifico numbers (2008) for the USA Ruthenian membership are:

1990 268161
2000 142820
2005 99381
2007 96761
2008 94829
Thanks for these more recent numbers Vico. There is no doubt that they are troublesome, but…

I know that some like to talk of demographic collapse, and raise the specter of going without a hierarchy, and talk off the top of their head about our vocations. But that talk is really a bit bizarre.

The situation of the BCC is very similar to that of the UGCC in the US, with substantially greater numbers than the Melkites and probably some fifty-fold greater numbers than the Russians. We have a long, long, long way to go to be in the mode of the Russian church.

The rate of decline is very difficult to discern from the AP numbers. Without a detailed report on the method of gathering numbers, one cannot discern fact from artifact. This obvious point has been discussed many times before but is conveniently ignored. It is really rather like suggesting a decimation of the OCA within the last decade as they went from the vaunetd ā€œone millionā€ to perhaps 100,000 faithful. My thinking is that, about the time of Metropolitan Judson, we began reporting actual membership rather than numbers of canonical BC’s. What looks like a sudden collapse was probably a longer, slower trend that accompanied the re-diasporization of our people out of coal and mill towns throughout the US, with losses primarily to the RCC, and some secularization.

The numbers do make pose a problem for vocations. On the other hand, the Phoenix Eparchy has about 3000 faithful and three seminarians - and stunning vocation rate. One parish in the Parma eparchy produced a deacon, a woman monastic, and two seminarians in the past five years.

The cited numbers show a remarkably high faithful/priest ratio. A real problem that we face is that our roots derive from an era in which we needed a parish in every small town where our people worked. Now, as these towns decline, we support multiple small parishes within a few minutes drive of each other. Contrast this situation with the Chaldeans who now probably outnumber the BCC in the US, but support their communities with perhaps 20 parishes. We will have closures in these small towns. It will hurt and leave people hurt, but it will not leave them without services.

We face problems. But the talk of collapse - we’ll we’ve heard it - mostly from outsiders - for over a century. Some things never change.
 
I must agree that anti-anything is no reason to convert. I was always taken aback as a Ruthenian Catholic when the Ruthenians were anti-Ukrainian Catholic…and the Ukrainian Catholics were anti Roman Catholic…and the Roman Catholics hated us because they refused to believe we were not Orthodox…and the Ruthenians became incensed at the Melkites because they used the word ā€œOrthodoxā€ in the DL…etc., etc., etcā€¦šŸ˜‰
Same here. Part of the problem between the Ukrainians and the Ruthenians is that they really aren’t separate nationalities; the different hierarchies were created in the 1900s (1927, I think) when there was a danger of the Ukrainian Church becoming more populated than the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania. A brilliant decision by the Third Council of Baltimore had forbad the creation of a Roman Catholic province in Pennsylvania if Eastern Catholics out-populated Romans, but they needed such a province by this point. Easy solution: Invent a distinction between Ukrainians and Ruthenians.
 
We face problems. But the talk of collapse - we’ll we’ve heard it - mostly from outsiders - for over a century. Some things never change.
I’ve seen mixed news. One vibrant but tiny Ruthenian parish I went to is losing its pastor - although it brings in Protestant converts into the Church on most years; an equally tiny Ukrainian parish seems to have shut down, or at least is no longer active every Sunday, but the Ruthenian parish I go to now is booming, has young priests with a young deacon and a young reader (in the seminary), and another young seminarian. Overall, I’m hopeful - God is perfectly capable of taking care of His own.

(On the other hand, southern Italy used to be entirely Byzantine-rite, and it just died out. God is perfectly capable of preserving us, but that doesn’t mean I’m not expecting the worst.)
 
It is definitely to live out the Eastern praxis more fully.šŸ™‚
Exactly! You point out protestant errors—and Holy Orthodoxy points out RC errors.
The problem is that what Orthodox catechesis points out as Catholic ā€œerrorsā€ are either not errors at all (they are only viewed as ā€œerrorsā€ because of Orthodox misconceptions) or are merely distinctions that do not merit disunity. But Orthodox catechesis often paints these matters as heresy. If the Catholic Church were of like mind as the Orthodox - that the other side was in heresy - and actively sought to nitpick at the distinctions like many Orthodox do, I doubt there would be as much movement towards Orthodoxy.
Proves **your **theory?!? :rotfl:
Your theory is completely erroneous and deficient. Every RC/EC convert I have spoken to did not take their conversion lightly–and they did not somehow get indoctrinated or brainwashed by the ā€œmind control EO Churchā€ā€“LOL! The conversion happened after much study and prayer and discernment–sometimes over a period of many years.
I’ve read many of your past posts when you were still Catholic, and the way you present the Catholic Faith today, I wonder that you were ever Catholic, since you are constantly proven to have a misconception of what the Catholic Church teaches. How in the world did your understanding of the Catholic Faith do such a 180 unless there was some active effort to convince you to do so?
Talk to us again when the honeymoon is over. šŸ‘‹
I pray I will always be in the honeymoon stage.šŸ‘

Blessings
 
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