Closet orthodoxy in eastern catholicism

  • Thread starter Thread starter GIR
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Your post here implcitly admits that you don’t know precisely what the numbers mean. Yet you hold to them as thought their interpretation were self-evident, and have the smugness to laugh at criticism of your extreme view.
I cannot emphasize enough that our Church sees itself as incapable. Fear and inferiority is the operant factor of the BC Church. The only voice with any power behind it which the administrative levels of our Church hears from are those who are complacent and intellectually and spiritually constipated. They hold our Church hostage under threat of “leaving” in the face of any real change. Since our Church is in survival mode and is not a thriving Church, the underlying motive for all decisions or lack of decisions is “fear of losing people.” The people of vision, which I believe IS our real Church (which I assume includes you) by their very nature do not “make trouble.” They don’t get in the bishop’s face or write nasty letters and threaten to leave (and take their checkbooks with them.) They (you) simply quietly leave as they have been doing by the thousands for decades. This give our Church the impression that “Oh, we can’t do this or that. The people don’t want it.” What people?
Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB., MA.
 
In a word: gossip.
Nope.

But you are the last person I would give names out to on an internet forum. 😉

You do not have to believe me. And you can accuse me of whatever you like.

BTW–It is sad for me to hear ethnic disagreements in any scenario.
 
Nope.
But you are the last person I would give names out to on an internet forum. 😉
You do not have to believe me. And you can accuse me of whatever you like.
BTW–It is sad for me to hear ethnic disagreements in any scenario.
A good definition from Wiki:
Gossip is idle talk or rumour, especially about the personal or private affairs of others. It forms one of the oldest and most common means of sharing (unproven) facts and views, but also has a reputation for the introduction of errors and other variations into the information transmitted.
Yep.
 
“In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.”

– Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1987), pp. 198-199.

'Nuff said.

Or is it?😃
 
My experiences were witnessed first hand. So your wiki definition does not apply. :tiphat:
“Witnessed”? In other words they were not your experiences but “personal affairs of others”. 👍
 
“Witnessed”?
Yes. Witnessed.

You are very defensive.

–When I was Ruthenian, I had Roman Catholics who could not (and would not) comprehend that I was anything other than Orthodox.

–It is no secret that there is friction at times between the Ruthenian Catholics and Ukrainian Catholics. I experienced this.

–The Melkite situation I encountered involved clergy—and I will not divulge names.
 
Yes. Witnessed.

You are very defensive.

–When I was Ruthenian, I had Roman Catholics who could not (and would not) comprehend that I was anything other than Orthodox.

–It is no secret that there is friction at times between the Ruthenian Catholics and Ukrainian Catholics. I experienced this.

–The Melkite situation I encountered involved clergy—and I will not divulge names.
I cannot fathom why people find it interesting to trash talk other churches, but yes I will defend mine against offensive gossip. Do your observations capture the context correctly? It would take all of the direct participants to say, and they are not available for fact checking. So what on earth is the point of your post?
 
Do your observations capture the context correctly?
Absolutely.
So what on earth is the point of your post?
Someone decided to bash the Orthodox by calling them “anti-Catholic”. I responded by saying I am not attracted to anti-anything. This includes the experiences I had within the Roman communion.

Then you decided to jump in with your usual accusations and complainings. 🤷
 
I cannot emphasize enough that our Church sees itself as incapable. Fear and inferiority is the operant factor of the BC Church. The only voice with any power behind it which the administrative levels of our Church hears from are those who are complacent and intellectually and spiritually constipated. They hold our Church hostage under threat of “leaving” in the face of any real change. Since our Church is in survival mode and is not a thriving Church, the underlying motive for all decisions or lack of decisions is “fear of losing people.” The people of vision, which I believe IS our real Church (which I assume includes you) by their very nature do not “make trouble.” They don’t get in the bishop’s face or write nasty letters and threaten to leave (and take their checkbooks with them.) They (you) simply quietly leave as they have been doing by the thousands for decades. This give our Church the impression that “Oh, we can’t do this or that. The people don’t want it.” What people?
**Fr. Thomas J. Loya, **
I recall discussions with father Tom (these were always public discussions in the backyard with several people present, we sometimes had ‘picnic’, sometimes a little wine 😉 ) when this kind of topic would come up because he was frustrated with the other priests in the eparchy and wanted to explain what he was up against. They were mostly older men, who were paralyzed into inaction. I think that this is what he was referring to in the quote above. Then of course father had some small measure of success in his own turnaround situation and there was a bit of resentment. I think he was considered an upstart by some of the other clergy.

He had his own battles within his own parish.

I was there one Great Lent when he pulled out all the pews! The bulk of the congregation didn’t like it, but they held back out of respect, until after Easter the pews were still gone, then there was hell to pay with very vocal complaints and I guess there were these threats (that seem to happen every so often around the eparchy) to quit the parish.

The pews went back in. The homily was very strange, father was angry an he used some very blunt language.

The parish was still divided, some expressed support for him by standing in the aisles and along the sides. I was embarrassed because I had finally convinced my late mother to come attend with me, and we had all of this going on.

Eventually a compromise was reached, and half the pews were shunted off while a wide space was made for those of us who wanted to stand. It became a rather nice arrangement. The young people in ECF would want to stand, their parents would want them to sit. More and more visitors were coming in and of course, they would grab a seat and the ‘sitters’ would have to stand too once in a while. 😃

I sympathize with him and respect him immensely. In fact, I think I picked up some of my own thoughts on the subject of the Ruthenian malaise from him. But I wouldn’t blame him for what I write, they are my comments said in my own way.

He is a fine priest, I haven’t seen him in four years but I still consider him my friend.
 
Absolutely.
No evidence.
Someone decided to bash the Orthodox by calling them “anti-Catholic”. I responded by saying I am not attracted to anti-anything. This includes the experiences I had within the Roman communion.
Oh I see. Why not just defend against the accusation, rather than going on the offensive?
 
I cannot emphasize enough that our Church sees itself as incapable. Fear and inferiority is the operant factor of the BC Church. The only voice with any power behind it which the administrative levels of our Church hears from are those who are complacent and intellectually and spiritually constipated. They hold our Church hostage under threat of “leaving” in the face of any real change. Since our Church is in survival mode and is not a thriving Church, the underlying motive for all decisions or lack of decisions is “fear of losing people.” The people of vision, which I believe IS our real Church (which I assume includes you) by their very nature do not “make trouble.” They don’t get in the bishop’s face or write nasty letters and threaten to leave (and take their checkbooks with them.) They (you) simply quietly leave as they have been doing by the thousands for decades. This give our Church the impression that “Oh, we can’t do this or that. The people don’t want it.” What people?
Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB., MA.
Ah yes, you slip in a quote rendered without any comment to relate it to anything in the thread - let alone my comments. The extremism that I commented on had to do with the idea of collapse and losing a hierarchy (and outdated statements on vocations). These statements make no sense, as is easily seen by comparing our situation to that faced in US eparchies of other EC churches. Pure fantasy aimed at what?

As to Fr. Loya’s critique: while I am happy about his success in Homer Glen, I think his comments here miss the mark and are not especially wise. First, I think that his idea that fear, a sense of inferiority, or complacency are operant factors in the BCC is inconsistent with my experience. Whatever you think of the last decade’s efforts: on liturgy, including the greater emphasis on presanctified, vespers, and matins; on liturgical music and training at the cantor institute; on the growth in the number of married priests; on enlivened monasticism eg in Parma; in working with Byzanteens - this work certainly does not reflect fear or complacency. And the idea of fear inferiority is just totally alien to my experience. It is very important to correctly diagnose the issues facing us so that they can be addressed with efficacy, rather than wasting time and other resources.

Moreover, I think that such a broad - and vague - critique can be very counterproductive. It clearly provides talking points to our adversaries. It also, IMO, encourages frustration and impatience. I think an assessment of the fruits of his approach might not be as positive as approaches found elsewhere in which a greater emphasis is placed on joyful, kenotic service than on criticism of all of those behind us in illumination. Perhaps this emphasis is indeed at work in Homer Glen - at least among those faithful to the church - but that is not what comes through in the quoted passage.
 
I ain’t no expert on the ECC’s, but it seems as though Father Loya is criticizing those who do not adhere to the decisions of their bishops.

Also, judging from Fr. Roberson’s Eastern Catholic statistics, though the Ruthenian Church is losing members, the trend is that the loss is definitely slowing down, at least since 2005.

Blessings
 
I ain’t no expert on the ECC’s, but it seems as though Father Loya is criticizing those who do not adhere to the decisions of their bishops.
Actually, the bishops are part of the problem. But the thing is, the eparchy was in trouble and parishes were in survival mode. The priests couldn’t agree on any programs, so nothing bold and daring was being tried anywhere in the eparchy.

We had one in Gary Indiana which had twelve old people. The temple had statues on either side of the altar and no iconostasis. They didn’t know about Divine Praises.

When they had a chance many years before (they were all younger and more numerous) there was literally no effort made to evangelize the neighbors, so as the neighborhood changed the little parish declined.

In discussions with them you would find that they didn’t believe their ancestors had been Orthodox, very curious little bunch. Apparently these lifelong Ruthenians had never heard of the Union of Uzhorod, 🤷 or didn’t really understand what had transpired there.

They still had rosary before Mass though, and a nice new Lourdes grotto in the side yard, at least they had their priorities straight.

The priests of the eparchy would pilot old declining parishes like that, afraid to upset the congregation because they would threaten to leave and join the Ukrainians (which actually did happen to father Tom when he sold the property on Seeley). While at the same time these people would die or move away and the congregations would inevitably shrink to nothing.

A poor economic analogy might be someone not investing their retirement savings, afraid they would lose it in big bites (a natural concern), but having to spend a bit each month the money would just disappear, like snow melting in the spring, until it is all gone and one is living out of bags.

Father Tom had been a pastor in Solon, OH. He was essentially the youngest priest in Parma at the time. He was given an opportunity, or challenge, Bishop Basil (memory eternal!) had two parishes in very serious difficulty (very far from each other) and one small mission all in Illinois. They had some lifelong members but they were dying off. Bishop Basil threw it at him to fix, and father Tom moved to Illinois, he had to try and serve all three as the old monsignor in Chicago was planning on retiring, so something had to give. He politicked the two congregations into selling off everything including the mission and building a new temple in the posh SW suburbs. Bishop Basil agreed to the scheme.

Many people were angry (especially that the Seeley property was worth a lot more than the other parish, but the new church location was going to be a bit closer to the other people). He built a nice new suburban temple with the money and combined the membership (that would follow him). It was risky, but there was a lot of synergy in the new arrangement and people were excited, one parish had a good little choir, one had a deacon. New people from the neighborhood came in to see the strange new church and some stayed. Father introduced new concepts of stewardship and pledging, including asking people to name the parish in their wills and beneficiaries on their life insurance :eek:.

Father introduced Vespers and Orthros. Rosary became a private affair before Orthros. When I suggested he start a Saturday night Mass or a second liturgy on Sunday he politely but firmly said “no, we don’t do that here.”

After the initial unfortunate losses of some of the angry parishioners from the old parishes, the numbers started to climb and the collection began to rise higher than before. For example when I joined in I began giving four times the weekly amount what I had been giving in my old Latin parish, plus volunteering and separate donations for icons and such things. It was a pretty exciting place.

I was a Benedictine Oblate but I was being much more spiritually fed in the parish, which was a complete reversal of my personal situation when I was a Latin Catholic.
Also, judging from Fr. Roberson’s Eastern Catholic statistics, though the Ruthenian Church is losing members, the trend is that the loss is definitely slowing down, at least since 2005.

Blessings
I think you are right. There has also been some consolidation of parishes, with the sale of properties that provide the diocese with a little cash.

There should be a hard core of supporters, but the network of parishes is incomplete, so when the younger ones finish college and move away there is no place for them. Newcomers to the neighborhood have to be evangelized in to assure the continuity of it.

If this same process were happening elsewhere and the church was widespread enough the children starting new familes far away might also be able to find a church in the tradition. So, I work to grow the church here for the future of your children, you work to grow the church there for the future needs of my children.

This is not just a BCC problem, all smaller churches face these issues. A congregation needs to add 6% population a year to remain viable (allowing for deaths and departures), and if it is on life support already that figure has to be much higher to recover viability and then maintain it.

I think that the problem is, in the salad days right after World War II everyone was enjoying the new prosperity, moving to the suburbs and spending Sunday afternoon washing the car. They weren’t thinking about the future health of their little parish and inviting their neighbors to church.
 
Dear brother Hesychios,

Thank you for all the good info.

Your experience with some EC’s not being aware of their EO roots was very thought-provoking.

Blessings
Actually, the bishops are part of the problem. But the thing is, the eparchy was in trouble and parishes were in survival mode. The priests couldn’t agree on any programs, so nothing bold and daring was being tried anywhere in the eparchy.



I think that the problem is, in the salad days right after World War II everyone was enjoying the new prosperity, moving to the suburbs and spending Sunday afternoon washing the car. They weren’t thinking about the future health of their little parish and inviting their neighbors to church.
 
“In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.”

– Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1987), pp. 198-199.

'Nuff said.

Or is it?😃
👍 Nice quote! 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top