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catharina
Guest
I agree. Ditto.
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brigid12
Guest
In “‘Corinthians’ The Navarre Bible” 11:2-6 " …One thing at least can be clearly deduced from what he [Paul] says here; external comportment at public worship is a matter of some importance because it reflects people’s inner dispositions…"
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brigid12
Guest
This is off-topic but seemed it might be important - have you discussed your shoveling with your doctor, in light of the two little ones you carry?I wore jeans and a hooded sweatshit to Mass last Sunday, I have two kids one on the way and I spent the morning shoveling…
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foolishmortal
Guest
I think, before we, who are for clothes that say we are somewhere important (outside of costumes for balls), run off people coming back after a long leave of absence from the Faith, people that come in when they are able in whatever, or people taking baby steps in approaching a Church they never knew, let me say that I would use the philosophy for illegal immigrants. If you are an illegal truly escaping persecution or truly needing America to care for your family, then come right in as you are. I just think that is a small percentage–just as it is for those coming to Mass in play clothes–even if they are yuppie play clothes like sandals and polo shirts. I admit I’m not better consistently, but I don’t make up phony reasons for not dressing in a sport coat (the dressy kind; not a team logo coat), slacks and dress shoes (maybe for other things, but those things are not the topic).
I think the same phony reasons for messing with the Mass involved fast Masses and weak Gregorian choirs. Instead of reforming the priests and choir leaders, we almost reinvented the Mass and abuses became worse. The same thing has gone for clothes. Instead of correcting those showing off and thus, returning to a balance of externals and internals, we went to wearing play clothes if we feel like it–even if we can afford something that looks dressier.
I still think, if one has the humility to go to a second-hand store or Catholic Charities, one can find something respectable at an affordable price (you might want to give it a cleaning in case of bugs or something, but I never bought clothes from one) or else to a relative for something probably free.
I think, for the sake of men’s souls, women who come in spontaneously from the beach to worship or those who are taking baby steps to come into or back into the Church (maybe a modern-day Mary Magdalene), wearing less than appropriate, should watch from the least public spot possible (I know that St, Mary touched Jesus and everything, but perfect contrition does not grace everyone who comes back, our priest’s cannot forgive in Christ’s name outside the sacrament of reconciliation and even Jesus sent the people of his time to their priests for reconciliation with the valid church of the time). Otherwise, the parish should provide robes or shawls or something. Maybe this should be applied to men who might come in from the beach in California, Hawaii, Florida, etc. as women have been getting into the sins of the eyes worse and worse, though it is probably less frequently a problem.
We are hooked into this world by our senses and we cannot live in our little soul world. We need standards in a community, but also charity. Let’s maintain a harmony between our internal piety and external standards, but not beat the different ones. The priest should be the one to learn their story and tell the others if they can help.
I think the same phony reasons for messing with the Mass involved fast Masses and weak Gregorian choirs. Instead of reforming the priests and choir leaders, we almost reinvented the Mass and abuses became worse. The same thing has gone for clothes. Instead of correcting those showing off and thus, returning to a balance of externals and internals, we went to wearing play clothes if we feel like it–even if we can afford something that looks dressier.
I still think, if one has the humility to go to a second-hand store or Catholic Charities, one can find something respectable at an affordable price (you might want to give it a cleaning in case of bugs or something, but I never bought clothes from one) or else to a relative for something probably free.
I think, for the sake of men’s souls, women who come in spontaneously from the beach to worship or those who are taking baby steps to come into or back into the Church (maybe a modern-day Mary Magdalene), wearing less than appropriate, should watch from the least public spot possible (I know that St, Mary touched Jesus and everything, but perfect contrition does not grace everyone who comes back, our priest’s cannot forgive in Christ’s name outside the sacrament of reconciliation and even Jesus sent the people of his time to their priests for reconciliation with the valid church of the time). Otherwise, the parish should provide robes or shawls or something. Maybe this should be applied to men who might come in from the beach in California, Hawaii, Florida, etc. as women have been getting into the sins of the eyes worse and worse, though it is probably less frequently a problem.
We are hooked into this world by our senses and we cannot live in our little soul world. We need standards in a community, but also charity. Let’s maintain a harmony between our internal piety and external standards, but not beat the different ones. The priest should be the one to learn their story and tell the others if they can help.
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markomalley
Guest
I think the best advice was given by mariyka below:I think, before we, who are for clothes that say we are somewhere important (outside of costumes for balls), run off people coming back after a long leave of absence from the Faith, people that come in when they are able in whatever, or people taking baby steps in approaching a Church they never knew, let me say that I would use the philosophy for illegal immigrants. If you are an illegal truly escaping persecution or truly needing America to care for your family, then come right in as you are. I just think that is a small percentage–just as it is for those coming to Mass in play clothes–even if they are yuppie play clothes like sandals and polo shirts. I admit I’m not better consistently, but I don’t make up phony reasons for not dressing in a sport coat (the dressy kind; not a team logo coat), slacks and dress shoes (maybe for other things, but those things are not the topic).
I think the same phony reasons for messing with the Mass involved fast Masses and weak Gregorian choirs. Instead of reforming the priests and choir leaders, we almost reinvented the Mass and abuses became worse. The same thing has gone for clothes. Instead of correcting those showing off and thus, returning to a balance of externals and internals, we went to wearing play clothes if we feel like it–even if we can afford something that looks dressier.
I still think, if one has the humility to go to a second-hand store or Catholic Charities, one can find something respectable at an affordable price (you might want to give it a cleaning in case of bugs or something, but I never bought clothes from one) or else to a relative for something probably free.
I think, for the sake of men’s souls, women who come in spontaneously from the beach to worship or those who are taking baby steps to come into or back into the Church (maybe a modern-day Mary Magdalene), wearing less than appropriate, should watch from the least public spot possible (I know that St, Mary touched Jesus and everything, but perfect contrition does not grace everyone who comes back, our priest’s cannot forgive in Christ’s name outside the sacrament of reconciliation and even Jesus sent the people of his time to their priests for reconciliation with the valid church of the time). Otherwise, the parish should provide robes or shawls or something. Maybe this should be applied to men who might come in from the beach in California, Hawaii, Florida, etc. as women have been getting into the sins of the eyes worse and worse, though it is probably less frequently a problem.
We are hooked into this world by our senses and we cannot live in our little soul world. We need standards in a community, but also charity. Let’s maintain a harmony between our internal piety and external standards, but not beat the different ones. The priest should be the one to learn their story and tell the others if they can help.
I try to wear clean,modest clothes that will not distract others in the congregation. No one should note or remember what I wear.
S
SeekerJen
Guest
Thank you. This attitude is precisely what keeps me away from the Tridentine Mass. I know that you are not the majority (or at least that’s what I’ve been told), but I am welcomed in my parish whether I’m wearing dressy trousers, a skirt, or jeans and sneakers because I’ve been working the SVDP donations truck, and I think I’d prefer that over having people who’ve never even met me assuming that I am “bad” and “stupid” because I’m not in a skirt.Look at yourself. If you are a woman wearing pants,ANY pants, and a veil to a trad mass, know that you look stupid and like you don’t know what you are doing. At a trad mass either be the “That’s right I am modern and bad” woman in the pants and NO veil, or wear a skirt and a veil and maybe a hint,just a hint, of humility. Come on. It’s a no brainer. It’s not about looking good it’s about obedience and humility.
Way to show the love of Christ and Christian charity.
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Fitswimmer
Guest
That attitude is not the majority at my parish anymore, but there were a group of people that were there when I first started going there that anointed themselves the Clothes Police and had a lot to say about what everyone wore. Our pastor spoke to them about it because they were causing tension and hurt feelings, and he felt no matter how good their intentions were, the attitude wasn’t helping people. They all got insulted and stomped off to the SSPX chapel.Thank you. This attitude is precisely what keeps me away from the Tridentine Mass. I know that you are not the majority (or at least that’s what I’ve been told), but I am welcomed in my parish whether I’m wearing dressy trousers, a skirt, or jeans and sneakers because I’ve been working the SVDP donations truck, and I think I’d prefer that over having people who’ve never even met me assuming that I am “bad” and “stupid” because I’m not in a skirt.
Way to show the love of Christ and Christian charity.
This is the advice I live by now-I’m no longer dressing for the Clothes Police.
I try to wear clean,modest clothes that will not distract others in the congregation. No one should note or remember what I wear.
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foolishmortal
Guest
The pants thing was probably a communist idea to supplant the Biblical gender roles (which is not without some exception when stuff happens, like the man is abusive or leaves her). Still, it’s hardly something to bug someone about at a trad. Mass. I think one should humbly adjust themselves to any culture, unless they of the culture dress immodestly. I think temperaments should be blamed more than religion, Catholicism or, more specifically, the trad. Mass, the latter being the highest form of Catholic worship of a people–at least in the Western world.
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catharina
Guest
What source do you use to justify your representation of the traditional Mass as being the highest form of Catholic worship of a people - at least in the Western world? Or are you able to acknowledge that is only your opinion?The pants thing was probably a communist idea to supplant the Biblical gender roles (which is not without some exception when stuff happens, like the man is abusive or leaves her). Still, it’s hardly something to bug someone about at a trad. Mass. I think one should humbly adjust themselves to any culture, unless they of the culture dress immodestly. I think temperaments should be blamed more than religion, Catholicism or, more specifically, the trad. Mass, the latter being the highest form of Catholic worship of a people–at least in the Western world.
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foolishmortal
Guest
It’s the highest collective form of Catholic worship. I mean, there’s no clapping for the band, there’s no “yuck, yucks” (outside of a moment of maybe some dry humor during a sermon) during a representation of Christ’s suffering for us, there is respect in the clothes worn, kids don’t wear play clothes and play with toys, people don’t leave after receiving Holy Communion, it’s not a showcase for everyone’s talents, and you actually learn about your Faith at the sermons.
Now, I know the EWTN and Pope’s Masses are what the N.O. Masses were meant to be, and what I listed are accidentals, but they don’t see it important that the flock gets that as well and so we naturally get the irreverence seen at most N.O. Masses–at least on Sundays or Saturday nights. It’s not important to the ones above that our parish churches are showcases for modern art and modern(ist) thought. I am not one to ordinarily talk about all Rome’s money, but maybe they could use it to correct some of those designs.
Our immigrant ancestors put their hard-earned money into real-looking churches (that are being shut down because they all go to the fuzzy-wuzzy togetherness ones that helps us forget what’s happening there) as they, in their non-upwardly mobile lifestyles, knew what real worship involved. Some beneficiaries were rich and they knew that offering up their wealth meant what works would be pleasing to God because love was put into those designs. Even Orthodox Jews, Wiccans (though not necessarily in instructional buildings) and Buddhists recognize the worth of beautiful rituals and art that teach their faiths.
Now, I know the EWTN and Pope’s Masses are what the N.O. Masses were meant to be, and what I listed are accidentals, but they don’t see it important that the flock gets that as well and so we naturally get the irreverence seen at most N.O. Masses–at least on Sundays or Saturday nights. It’s not important to the ones above that our parish churches are showcases for modern art and modern(ist) thought. I am not one to ordinarily talk about all Rome’s money, but maybe they could use it to correct some of those designs.
Our immigrant ancestors put their hard-earned money into real-looking churches (that are being shut down because they all go to the fuzzy-wuzzy togetherness ones that helps us forget what’s happening there) as they, in their non-upwardly mobile lifestyles, knew what real worship involved. Some beneficiaries were rich and they knew that offering up their wealth meant what works would be pleasing to God because love was put into those designs. Even Orthodox Jews, Wiccans (though not necessarily in instructional buildings) and Buddhists recognize the worth of beautiful rituals and art that teach their faiths.
Code:
Of course, the highest worship comes from people like St. Francis but, come on, are most of us going to respond to grace nearly as well? That's why we need what the pre-Vatican 2 style art and worship provided--help to respond better---and no occasion to show how well you personally can sing or to show how P.C. we can be by allowing altar girls.
I do believe that's why most of this stuff happened (Pope Paul 6th allowed some, but did not design all of this, though it should have been foreseen by him), Everybody has to be in everyone's business, even into the priest's (or priests') and deacon's business in the sanctuary. Heaven forbid anyone be left out because they're a woman or not clergy. It has to center around us, thus round church buildings, instead of the kind where the priest leads us to God (the priest facing us was a bad idea).
C
Conservative
Guest
While I think I replied to this awhile ago, I see it has popped up again, and I have to add a few comments.
First, who says we have to/should dress like the 50’s/60’s? *** In the 60s women were in mini-skirts (VERY mini). *** Also, not appropriate for Church. There’s no need to look back to an era for mode of dress. We need to be mindful that we’re in the House of God and owe Him due respect in our prayer, our actions and our manner of dress - not just if we were to cause sin for others by distraction - but because it would be disrespectful to God. To me, that’s first on the list.
Second, I’ll bring up the years’ old question of - would you dress in a certain fashion to a formal restaurant, wedding or formal affair? We’ve all seen restaurants that have required dress codes posted, and if attending a wedding - our first concern is afternoon/evening — formal or not? And there’s no complaint. Whether it’s a headcovering or proper length skirts - no shorts, etc., God doesn’t expect us in gowns or a tuxedo - just our “Sunday best” - neat, clean - and respectful.
First, who says we have to/should dress like the 50’s/60’s? *** In the 60s women were in mini-skirts (VERY mini). *** Also, not appropriate for Church. There’s no need to look back to an era for mode of dress. We need to be mindful that we’re in the House of God and owe Him due respect in our prayer, our actions and our manner of dress - not just if we were to cause sin for others by distraction - but because it would be disrespectful to God. To me, that’s first on the list.
Second, I’ll bring up the years’ old question of - would you dress in a certain fashion to a formal restaurant, wedding or formal affair? We’ve all seen restaurants that have required dress codes posted, and if attending a wedding - our first concern is afternoon/evening — formal or not? And there’s no complaint. Whether it’s a headcovering or proper length skirts - no shorts, etc., God doesn’t expect us in gowns or a tuxedo - just our “Sunday best” - neat, clean - and respectful.
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catharina
Guest
So, in fact, you are relying on your own opinion as “fact.” Yet that’s not enough. You go on to suggest you can read the mind of the Pope. “Now, I know the EWTN and Pope’s Masses are what the N.O. Masses were meant to be, and what I listed are accidentals, but they don’t see it important that the flock gets that as well and so we naturally get the irreverence seen at most N.O. Masses–at least on Sundays or Saturday nights.”It’s the highest collective form of Catholic worship. I mean, there’s no clapping for the band, there’s no “yuck, yucks” (outside of a moment of maybe some dry humor during a sermon) during a representation of Christ’s suffering for us, there is respect in the clothes worn, kids don’t wear play clothes and play with toys, people don’t leave after receiving Holy Communion, it’s not a showcase for everyone’s talents, and you actually learn about your Faith at the sermons.
Now, I know the EWTN and Pope’s Masses are what the N.O. Masses were meant to be, and what I listed are accidentals, but they don’t see it important that the flock gets that as well and so we naturally get the irreverence seen at most N.O. Masses–at least on Sundays or Saturday nights. It’s not important to the ones above that our parish churches are showcases for modern art and modern(ist) thought. I am not one to ordinarily talk about all Rome’s money, but maybe they could use it to correct some of those designs.
Our immigrant ancestors put their hard-earned money into real-looking churches (that are being shut down because they all go to the fuzzy-wuzzy togetherness ones that helps us forget what’s happening there) as they, in their non-upwardly mobile lifestyles, knew what real worship involved. Some beneficiaries were rich and they knew that offering up their wealth meant what works would be pleasing to God because love was put into those designs. Even Orthodox Jews, Wiccans (though not necessarily in instructional buildings) and Buddhists recognize the worth of beautiful rituals and art that teach their faiths.
Code:Of course, the highest worship comes from people like St. Francis but, come on, are most of us going to respond to grace nearly as well? That's why we need what the pre-Vatican 2 style art and worship provided--help to respond better---and no occasion to show how well you personally can sing or to show how P.C. we can be by allowing altar girls. I do believe that's why most of this stuff happened (Pope Paul 6th allowed some, but did not design all of this, though it should have been foreseen by him), Everybody has to be in everyone's business, even into the priest's (or priests') and deacon's business in the sanctuary. Heaven forbid anyone be left out because they're a woman or not clergy. It has to center around us, thus round church buildings, instead of the kind where the priest leads us to God (the priest facing us was a bad idea).
Your stated opinions are only that: your opinions. Get it?
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foolishmortal
Guest
I don’t think the mini-skirts were worn to Mass in the early '60s, anyway, were they? I know all wasn’t well in the Church before the N.O., but superspeed Masses (as shameful and scandalous as they were) and bad choirs were nothing compared to what happened afterwards. If Bugnini were a Freemason, enemies of the Church succeed with their gates of hell in doing all but prevail in the Church (and that’s against the Church, as they won in most Protestant denoms) when conservative church people and/or clergy get soft and permissive. The Fundies, though delusioned about many things in the Bible, know what’s at stake in the battle against hell and so they and their Bibles are winning over Catholics taught that, “who can say who is going to hell so being a Fundie of any Faith is being judgmental and reactionary”? I would feel more at ease (morally; not completely and definitely not theologically) with one of those Baptists who do not drink or smoke and homeschool than with many fellow Catholics). With well-informed, not sentimental modernist, charity, we should be all over like our Fundie “brothers in Christ”–being persecuted for our actually true Faith for being a menace to governments like China’s. They (the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses as well) have the missionary zeal we lost even if some of the anti-Catholics might lack charity. We have both of those and hope. BTW I’m not that brave and I think I need a leader saying what I’m saying. If I were imprisoned in a place like China, I don’t know if my death would just be due to a lack of thyroid replacement medicine and not really martyrdom.
I do have to amend something, the last 2 Popes did do something to give us all worthy service (the last more than the first, but I give the first credit, though the principle of it may possibly have been appeasement–I don’t know). The only problem is, most of us don’t go to traditional Masses and can’t go, at least regularly, to EWTN Masses or the Pope’s public Masses. Weekday Masses are usually done in good taste, but most in a parish don’t or can’t go to those either.
I do have to amend something, the last 2 Popes did do something to give us all worthy service (the last more than the first, but I give the first credit, though the principle of it may possibly have been appeasement–I don’t know). The only problem is, most of us don’t go to traditional Masses and can’t go, at least regularly, to EWTN Masses or the Pope’s public Masses. Weekday Masses are usually done in good taste, but most in a parish don’t or can’t go to those either.
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foolishmortal
Guest
Catharina, by your attitude, I think you forgot your counter-position is merely an opinion as well. Unfortunately, I did not think up my ideas on my own; but from well-informed sources. TAN books are useful in understanding the problems. You know how the fruits of something are very telling of the judgment of its architects.
C
catharina
Guest
I didn’t forget that what I offer are my opinions. Never would I announce without qualifications that one form of the Mass is superior to all others. You did that. Remember?Catharina, by your attitude, I think you forgot your counter-position is merely an opinion as well. Unfortunately, I did not think up my ideas on my own; but from well-informed sources. TAN books are useful in understanding the problems. You know how the fruits of something are very telling of the judgment of its architects.
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foolishmortal
Guest
And that was my opinion. I never stated I was an authority. Callers on a talk-radio show don’t all say, it is only my opinion, I’m no authority, blah, blah, blah. I deduced from what I read from well-researched books. Don’t have a cow. If you agreed with my opinion, I bet you wouldn’t have had a problem with my complaints.
But, alas, I committed the number 1 mortal sin in modernist Christianity…I judged another’s actions…er, I mean their soul. In modernist thinking, judging another’s actions, if you like their actions, automatically becomes soul judging.
The problem here is that the judgmentalism police, who replaced the clothes at Mass police, are as judgmental and guilty of reading souls as the ones they accuse of the same. Actually, the latter my not even have judged the others’ souls.
I don’t believe priests today understand the weight on their souls by becoming priests. They have the customary confessions around 3PM Saturdays, though who knows what they really must confess anyway. They tend their flock as if all are in heaven and the wolves won’t attack and so it’s happy hour every hour. Everyone is entitled to their own happiness, though women can’t be priests and that cannot be crossed. Otherwise, let’s tear down those imposive old rails and form in a circle and hold hands.
The Popes have an even heavier weight on their souls. They have ultimate authority. Playing politics with rebellious bishops is not an option as his flock is in danger when the latter are running things. They gave th faithful an indult and then free reign in parishes, but most Catholics don’t go to the Latin Masses. Thus, to protect the flock they must rock the boat. They have at times, but they are not doing enough. Lost souls are often their responsibility because they know mischief is happening. They need to remove from, their jurisdiction, activity level and rank, the rebels and replace them with at least ones like those who appear on EWTN as well as obedient traditional ones. I am not judging souls; I am judging actions and much is wanting.
The Mass is the Mass. However, the Mass, if done flippantly, is not proper worship. The very form of the N.O. leaves out much, but it is technically holy. How many St. Thomas Aquinases, St. Clairs, St. Augustines or St. Francises do we have today? Even St. Francis was for reforming just our insides, saying nothing about needing to change the Mass or the buildings. We changed the Mass and buildings, but we are a lot of messed up people who have cable and violent video games playing for our kids and who’s around saying not to do that? The only thing we are forbidden to do is judge anything–even dereliction of any of the duties of the posts of our leaders. That puts us at risk and we have as much need to judge that as we are to kiss the priests’ hands for bringimng us Jesus as Faith and Charity, as well as Hope.are to be in balance and at top form interiorily and exteriorily–none being the more important.
But, alas, I committed the number 1 mortal sin in modernist Christianity…I judged another’s actions…er, I mean their soul. In modernist thinking, judging another’s actions, if you like their actions, automatically becomes soul judging.
The problem here is that the judgmentalism police, who replaced the clothes at Mass police, are as judgmental and guilty of reading souls as the ones they accuse of the same. Actually, the latter my not even have judged the others’ souls.
I don’t believe priests today understand the weight on their souls by becoming priests. They have the customary confessions around 3PM Saturdays, though who knows what they really must confess anyway. They tend their flock as if all are in heaven and the wolves won’t attack and so it’s happy hour every hour. Everyone is entitled to their own happiness, though women can’t be priests and that cannot be crossed. Otherwise, let’s tear down those imposive old rails and form in a circle and hold hands.
The Popes have an even heavier weight on their souls. They have ultimate authority. Playing politics with rebellious bishops is not an option as his flock is in danger when the latter are running things. They gave th faithful an indult and then free reign in parishes, but most Catholics don’t go to the Latin Masses. Thus, to protect the flock they must rock the boat. They have at times, but they are not doing enough. Lost souls are often their responsibility because they know mischief is happening. They need to remove from, their jurisdiction, activity level and rank, the rebels and replace them with at least ones like those who appear on EWTN as well as obedient traditional ones. I am not judging souls; I am judging actions and much is wanting.
The Mass is the Mass. However, the Mass, if done flippantly, is not proper worship. The very form of the N.O. leaves out much, but it is technically holy. How many St. Thomas Aquinases, St. Clairs, St. Augustines or St. Francises do we have today? Even St. Francis was for reforming just our insides, saying nothing about needing to change the Mass or the buildings. We changed the Mass and buildings, but we are a lot of messed up people who have cable and violent video games playing for our kids and who’s around saying not to do that? The only thing we are forbidden to do is judge anything–even dereliction of any of the duties of the posts of our leaders. That puts us at risk and we have as much need to judge that as we are to kiss the priests’ hands for bringimng us Jesus as Faith and Charity, as well as Hope.are to be in balance and at top form interiorily and exteriorily–none being the more important.
C
catharina
Guest
Rant over?
Fine. You have now excused yourself, agreeing that the Mass is the Mass - rather than your previous NOTION that “Catholicism or, more specifically, the trad. Mass, the latter being the highest form of Catholic worship of a people–at least in the Western world.” You also managed to take back your insult against the Popes. Good for you. That’s true progress. Ya’ know, the good kind?
Fine. You have now excused yourself, agreeing that the Mass is the Mass - rather than your previous NOTION that “Catholicism or, more specifically, the trad. Mass, the latter being the highest form of Catholic worship of a people–at least in the Western world.” You also managed to take back your insult against the Popes. Good for you. That’s true progress. Ya’ know, the good kind?
F
foolishmortal
Guest
Being that the popes, as people, are fallible, I don’t believe I insulted them. That any valid Mass is technically holy, well, I never questioned that. However, all in heaven are holy, but some in heaven had more to fill with holiness to the brim than others (those being saints, yet some saints had more room than others to fill). We can speak of the saint’s mistakes as well, like St. Thomas Aquinas’s love of eating, and not insult him because he was still holy. Vatican 2 had Protestants as advisors, for some reason, but it’s still valid. That a Freemason (he was one, wasn’t he?) of the name, Bugnini, designed the N.O. doesn’t mean that the N.O. is not technically holy and less than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That does not defeat my argument, I don’t think. If these examples are not true of different Masses, or how certain Masses are conducted by the priest, I am not aware of that teaching.
All I know is that the N.O. allows for too much talent showcasing and parishoner-focused innovations. I think, within the walls of N.O. religious communities, that is less of a problem. The tridentine did not allow for anything but humility in worship as noone was on stage and, despite beautiful, powerful singing by the choir, all praise to God and not shared with the band by a round of applause–as if we’re at a concert. At the TLM, the peace is the peace God gives. If we don’t have peace with our fellow humans outside, and many of us have trouble with that here and on the road (I am guilty on both counts), what good is a handshake inside (are we actually going to not be at peace in the Mass or before or after it)?
All I know is that the N.O. allows for too much talent showcasing and parishoner-focused innovations. I think, within the walls of N.O. religious communities, that is less of a problem. The tridentine did not allow for anything but humility in worship as noone was on stage and, despite beautiful, powerful singing by the choir, all praise to God and not shared with the band by a round of applause–as if we’re at a concert. At the TLM, the peace is the peace God gives. If we don’t have peace with our fellow humans outside, and many of us have trouble with that here and on the road (I am guilty on both counts), what good is a handshake inside (are we actually going to not be at peace in the Mass or before or after it)?
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foolishmortal
Guest
That a Mass is holy on a technicality is not anything to get excited about except that it proves the Church’s infallibilty. OK, so freemasons couldn’t get anything into the Mass that was overt blasphemy. Satan can work with that. Satan’s forces don’t need overt blasphemy. They just need to remove some safeguards and then introduce modernist innovations that just technically do not violate any dogmatic Church teachings or Church laws.
We have good apples, it’s true, but with the safeguards gone, we have disorders aplenty and who knows how many lost vocations (my Dad’s being one) that could be attributed to the confusion (which, with the help of tv and radio, could have been corrected–punitive corrections if necessary) whereas, before, there were at least the warnings and education for souls even if all was not 100% before the changes in everything. I am 32 and my soul and the souls of my classmates were not touched by the N.O. Masses. Our generation was not impressed, spiritually. Coddling is no good for the soul. Fear of the Lord is the backbone of salvation. At least, then, you will have the humility, knowledge and wherewithal to make a good confession. You can have joy too. St. Francis, Brother Juniper, St. Philip Neri and Archbishop Sheen lived then and were not sour pusses, The safeguards kept the joy within. Some just have rougher temperaments than others
Code:
What have we had? Drunken priests, party priests, lost vocations, a flock that decides what dogma or Church law they will or will not concern themselves about, people in play clothes 'cause they feel like it, kids playing with toys in the pews, people leaving after receiving Holy Communion, nothing learned from the pulpit except the upteenth sermon about being nice to each other (even an EWTN show host admitted that's a problem).
F
foolishmortal
Guest
We have had various languages in the Church. Maybe the Council of Trent should have gathered them all under one language, but they were, at least, Church versions of the languages, I believe. The vernacular, I believe, was a punishment for TLM clergy and faithful who got careless and cocky as happened with the Tower of Babel. Now slang and lazy language can enter Church works and you can’t follow along despite not knowing the other country’s language in most countries; whereas, even in cities of Eastern Church areas, you could probably have found a Latin Mass.
This is not to dissuade Protestants. Our Church does have it all and the schismatic “Catholics” lost more or less of the graces of the Church (their bishops don’t have jurisdiction and the priests can’t provide certain sacraments). Still, you just need to read a lot of TAN books and the sermons of the saints as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church (though the Catechism of the Council of Trent and Baltimore Catechism fills in the Church’s time-honored knowledge in areas the newest one sidesteps).
God bless the last 2 popes for at least allowing the TLM! Hopefully, it’ll spread and we will have the ritual reenactment of Christ’s death for our sins and for our salvation without the yuk yuks (at least outside the sermon, but within, serving the topic and not for a kumbayah let’s get together and feel alright experience). We could not even need the TLM if the Popes would have required the Mass to be done as informationally, reverently and beautifully as they do it on EWTN. But my non-Latin Mass going family won’t get that.
This is not to dissuade Protestants. Our Church does have it all and the schismatic “Catholics” lost more or less of the graces of the Church (their bishops don’t have jurisdiction and the priests can’t provide certain sacraments). Still, you just need to read a lot of TAN books and the sermons of the saints as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church (though the Catechism of the Council of Trent and Baltimore Catechism fills in the Church’s time-honored knowledge in areas the newest one sidesteps).
God bless the last 2 popes for at least allowing the TLM! Hopefully, it’ll spread and we will have the ritual reenactment of Christ’s death for our sins and for our salvation without the yuk yuks (at least outside the sermon, but within, serving the topic and not for a kumbayah let’s get together and feel alright experience). We could not even need the TLM if the Popes would have required the Mass to be done as informationally, reverently and beautifully as they do it on EWTN. But my non-Latin Mass going family won’t get that.
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