Cloud of Unknowing

[Bookcat]

So you have any personal opinions on how many people might be open to contemplation … available to receive, or whatever? Or what does and does not dispose a person to receiving this gift?

Such has been of subject of great debate – particularly in the first half of the 20th Century (I mean the question --not “my” opinion hee hee…I was not around)

425,000.025

First off there are various senses of the word “contemplation” and writers from the past 2000 years have been varied in their understanding and usage. Even when talking about prayer.

So it would first depend on what one meant by the word.

One can speak of “contemplation” as an aspect of philosophical and theological knowledge and experience. Or one can speak of contemplation referring in various ways to prayer…from particular moments to particular “states”.

Often writers after the reflex age have used the term to refer to either “acquired contemplation” or more often since that time --to “infused contemplation”.

The first being able (still with the grace of God) to be arrived at by us. The other being where one is more “passive” and while God is more at work (infused contemplation–given directly by God) and as such something one can prepare for by a life of prayer and asceticism but which only God can give. Being beyond that which we can “acquire”.

As to how many arrive at either? --I cannot say. While it can be argued that by nature of the Christian life --by baptism --all are theoretically called to such–or remotely called – practically I would say one can conclude that fewer than those who are called experience contemplation --particularly of the infused sort. And especially the higher degrees of contemplation (that those of the reflex age referred -to use their approach–such as St. Theresa of Jesus etc)

One can note too that there can both what one can call “typical” forms and that which one can call “atypical” forms of infused contemplation (the latter being “masked” as it where and not even realized by the person.

Spiritual Theology is a wide and very interesting topic with many varied schools of thoughts and approaches down through the centuries.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

OK, I see the problem. You are using a very wide open set of definitions for contemplation and I’m using a very specific meaning.

The contemplation I mean when speaking of the Cloud or about contemplative prayer forms in general, is something God does, although we open ourselves to it. I’m not talking about the kind of contemplation that we do ourselves, as in “I contemplated this issue.” It isn’t about an “issue” or a thought. It’s beyond words.

It is like the language God “speaks to us” in, as described by CCC 2717:

Contemplative prayer is silence, the “symbol of the world to come” or “silent love.” Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

Alan

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It really isn’t all that complex.

Anyone who is drawn toward a deeper relationship with Christ, is being called to contemplation and contemplative prayer, which is a simple method of prayer, merely opens them up to God, who is the source of contemplation.

All methods of prayer should draw us toward the indwelling of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

St Teresa of Avila wrote that some people reach infused contemplation through discursive prayer, but she thought it was more difficult.

Whereas mental prayer is where we go to be in the presence of God, and where he speaks to us best.

I read more and more in Catholic forums such as this, where people are hungering for something more than reciting verbal prayers by rote. The dryness they’re experiencing is from boredom, because no one ever taught them about contemplative prayer and how prayer should bring us closer to God, dwelling within.

Threads like this should be helping such Catholics with prayer, but instead, it discourages them by making them believe that few are called to contemplation and they should avoid contemplative prayer, for that is for the spiritually gifted.

The Eastern Orthodox don’t have this problem, for they’ve kept contemplative prayer very much apart of their teachings on prayer. It’s something we learn from them.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

How many times are you going to post this link with the erroneous definition?

The link said that the author states that the Cloud of Unknowing is not for beginners, but he never wrote this.

Jim

It is not an erroneous definition.

It is though a “short dictionary- genre” definition.

In the prologue and in the last chapter of the book the author does get into various warnings such as who the book is intended for…and even some he says he wished would never see it.

He says not all are called --and he even says that the owner or carrier of it etc etc is not to read it to anyone or speak of it to anyone etc etc unless they are a person who is of is aiming without deviating to live as a perfect follower of Christ not only their daily life but in the heights of contemplative living --and who does everything they can --and had been doing so for a long time – to prepare for such— by a life a of virtue…

Such is not the description of a “beginner” – so hence yes the Theologian above quoted is correct that the book “is not for beginners” according to the author.

 

[Bookcat]

OK, I see the problem. You are using a very wide open set of definitions for contemplation and I’m using a very specific meaning.

The contemplation I mean when speaking of the Cloud or about contemplative prayer forms in general, is something God does, although we open ourselves to it. I’m not talking about the kind of contemplation that we do ourselves, as in “I contemplated this issue.” It isn’t about an “issue” or a thought. It’s beyond words.

It is like the language God “speaks to us” in, as described by CCC 2717:

Contemplative prayer is silence, the “symbol of the world to come” or “silent love.” Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

Alan

I am using them all and acquired contemplation can be “beyond words” or very simplified in the look of love…

As to infused contemplation --I was discussing such here too:

While it can be argued that by nature of the Christian life --by baptism --all are theoretically called to such–or remotely called – practically I would say one can conclude that fewer than those who are called -do experience contemplation --particularly of the infused sort.
And especially the higher degrees of contemplation (that those of the reflex age referred -to use their approach–such as St. Theresa of Jesus etc)

One can note too that there can both what one can call “typical” forms and that which one can call “atypical” forms of infused contemplation (the latter being “masked” as it where and not even realized by the person.

As to the CCC – I would say one will find various aspects of both “acquired contemplation” (which is not meaning “I contemplated this issue”) and “infused contemplation” within that section of the Catechism.

And one can argue to that in the 14th century English apophatic classic the “Cloud of Unknowing” that one can find too “acquired contemplation” as well as I imagine “infused” described (but granted only directly by God).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It is not an erroneous definition.

It is though a “short dictionary- genre” definition.

In the prologue and in the last chapter of the book the author does get into various warnings such as who the book is intended for…and even some he says he wished would never see it.

.

I reread the prolog today and posted earlier on what it says;

He says in the prolog, that this book is only for those who are deeply committed to follow Jesus Christ perfectly. In other words, this can be any person who is drawn by the grace of God toward contemplation.

He goes on to say, that worldly gossips, flatterers, the scrupulous, talebearers, busybodies and the hypercritical, he would rather they never laid eyes on the book and he had no intention of writing for them, and goes on to say, this also applies to the curious, educated or not.

His fear was that such people would read the book in error and spread their misinformation, which is being proven by the link you posted.

Yes, not everyone is committed to a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ, and for them, such a book would for the most part be meaningless.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

Readers can read the full prologue…and the last chapter of the book

And as I noted he refers to those who have for a long time been doing all in their ability to live in virtue…such is not by definition “a beginner”.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It is not an erroneous definition.

It is though a “short dictionary- genre” definition.

In the prologue and in the last chapter of the book the author does get into various warnings such as who the book is intended for…and even some he says he wished would never see it.

It may be abbreviated definition, but if it makes a false statement, it is still erroneous regardless of what we call it. kpeople:

Unless you or someone else can quote the part from the Cloud where the author says this, I’m not going to believe that dictionary because I have more reliable “evidence” to the contrary. Or do you know the quote and have been holding out on us?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Readers can read the full prologue…and the last chapter of the book – the notes what I noted above.

And as I noted he refers to those who have for a long time been doing all in their ability to live in virtue…such is not by definition “a beginner”.

I wouldn’t call those people beginners. They aren’t even up to that status IMO, for purposes of the Cloud and contemplative prayer. They haven’t begun anything toward the spiritual journey, as they dig their own graves anew every day.

I’m thinking of “beginner” in terms of someone who actually has started. Another terminology issue I suppose.

Alan

 

[Bookcat]

I wouldn’t call those people beginners. They aren’t even up to that status IMO, for purposes of the Cloud and contemplative prayer. They haven’t begun anything toward the spiritual journey, as they dig their own graves anew every day.

I’m thinking of “beginner” in terms of someone who actually has started. Another terminology issue I suppose.

Alan

He speaks of them being at it (virtue) for a long time…so thus they are not beginners. But are more “advanced” in the Christian life then say a new Christian or even one who has just “started” seeking to follow Christ in a more serious way…in virtue and a committed life of prayer etc…

Heck he was writing it to a hermit…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

He speaks of them being at it (virtue) for a long time…so thus they are not beginners. But are more “advanced” in the Christian life then say a new Christian or even one who has just “started” seeking to follow Christ in a more serious way…in virtue and a committed life of prayer etc…

Heck he was writing it to a hermit…

Thank you for your reply. I’m now officially bored with arguing over what some guy did or didn’t intend to write centuries ago. It was fun. :tiphat:

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Readers can read the full prologue…and the last chapter of the book

And as I noted he refers to those who have for a long time been doing all in their ability to live in virtue…such is not by definition “a beginner”.

I have the book in my hand as I type.

Neither the prolog nor the last chapter say that this is not for the beginner.

The last chapter refers to the previous, which ends with;

“Knowledge is full of labor, but love, full of rest.”

The, the final chapter asks the question, how can there be rest when trouble and suffering beset the individual?

He states, that the answer is simple. “You find this work painful because you are not yet accustomed to it. Were you accustomed to it, and did you realize its value, you would not be willing to give it up for all the material joys and rest in the world.”

He’s clearly speaking about the person who follows the teaching, which may not yet be a person advanced in prayer, for if they were, they would not be willing to give it up at this point.

Also. the term, “beginner,” which your link uses, is a worldly term, not God’s.

A soul who is committed toward union with Christ will be brought to Him by His
divine will and that person may have just became a Christian in a flash as St. Paul.

The transforming grace we receive from God which leads us toward union with Him, is according to his will. He has the knowledge of where we are at spiritually, and it is through his love and compassion for us, that He draws us unto himself.

Lastly, the bottom line is, we advance through the practice and experience of prayer, not reading The Cloud of Unknowing, or other works, which may be food for spiritual edification, but not the gift of contemplation which can only come from God.

Unless you open yourself to contemplation, you will more likely not, enter into it.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

Also. the term, “beginner,” which your link uses, is a worldly term, not God’s.

It is not a “worldy term”. Such is a classic term used among spiritual writers and in spiritual theology.

As to the author of the Cloud while he does not use the term – he does state what I noted above.

PS: I had two copies at my hands as I wrote the prior post

I bid you a grand eventide!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It is not a “worldy term”. Such is a classic term used among spiritual writers and in spiritual theology.

As to the author of the Cloud while he does not use the term – he does state what I noted above.

PS: I had two copies at my hands as I wrote the prior post

I bid you a grand eventide!

 

[DBT]

The author of The Cloud describes who he has in mind in Chapter 1 where he discusses the 4 degrees of Christian life.

ccel.org/ccel/anonymous2/cloud.html

In this translation, the common, special, singular and perfect are the terms used with the singular as the intended audience. This is very similiar in construct to St. Teresa’s description of the mansions in Interior Castle.

Active recollection (aka acquired contemplation) in the manner of The Cloud or Brother Lawrence’s Practice of the Presence of God would typically fall in the third mansion. These are souls who consider themselves committed Christians who actively strive to practice virtue and various ascetic practices. They pray regularly … but the devotions and meditation that was formerly their food no longer satifies. They yearn for something more simple, regular and constant … hence the drawing toward acquired contemplation methods. They may or may not have moments of infused contemplation which begins in the 4th mansion.

So no these folks are not “beginners” in the way of Christian life … but neither is this audience so lofty as to be unattainable. My view is that we can take a gander around the pews of our parishes and find all sorts of people who would meet the “technical” definition of what the author of The Cloud and St. Teresa have in mind for those ready for active recollection/acquired contemplation. Whether they feel drawn to do so is another matter … that’s the work of the Holy Spirit.

Dave

 

[DBT]

And one other thought.

The emphasis spiritual writers place on “readiness” seems to me to be entirely logical and prudent. Active recollection (aka acquired contemplation) implies the desire for the radical self-giving of one’s mind and heart to Christ. It seems highly unlikely that the individual who wakes up one morning and declares “hey, I want to be a Christian” would immediately jump to that conclusion. Of course there’s always exceptions to the rule but, generally speaking, we proceed by degrees.

The reason is that in the early mansions (using St. Teresa’s constructs) we tend to compartmentalize Christ after we’ve made that initial step to accept Him into our life: We want Him in our mind and heart when we want Him there … but we prefer Him gone and even choose to forget about Him when it’s not convenient. Only later, by practice and grace, does the desire begin to form for the radical self-giving I mention at the outset. At this point in time works like The Cloud, Brother Lawrence, Osuna’s Third Spiritual Alphabet etc can be very helpful.

Dave

 

[Samson01]

And one other thought.

The emphasis spiritual writers place on “readiness” seems to me to be entirely logical and prudent. Active recollection (aka acquired contemplation) implies the desire for the radical self-giving of one’s mind and heart to Christ. It seems highly unlikely that the individual who wakes up one morning and declares “hey, I want to be a Christian” would immediately jump to that conclusion. Of course there’s always exceptions to the rule but, generally speaking, we proceed by degrees.

The reason is that in the early mansions (using St. Teresa’s constructs) we tend to compartmentalize Christ after we’ve made that initial step to accept Him into our life: We want Him in our mind and heart when we want Him there … but we prefer Him gone and even choose to forget about Him when it’s not convenient. Only later, by practice and grace, does the desire begin to form for the radical self-giving I mention at the outset. At this point in time works like The Cloud, Brother Lawrence, Osuna’s Third Spiritual Alphabet etc can be very helpful.

Dave

Sounds like at this point, formal prayer gives way to a constant conversation because one is aware of Him in daily life…that is when the lessons begin…perhaps?

 

[DBT]

Sounds like at this point, formal prayer gives way to a constant conversation because one is aware of Him in daily life…that is when the lessons begin…perhaps?

Pretty much!

That’s the idea of the mansions. Memorized/rote prayers are how we usually begin (mansion 1) followed by meditative reflection (mansion 2) … pondering on the mysteries of the Rosary, rather that merely reciting the words, as a good example.

Then we begin to talk to Him interiorly in our own words … what Carmelites call mental prayer. As this becomes more simplified (ie. fewer words rather than many) and more habitual, then we enter the territory where The Cloud and works like it are very beneficial (mansion 3). These souls strive to walk with Christ in continual friendship and dialogue in all they think, say and do. And this continual self-giving, in the teaching of these spiritual writers, is what prepares and predisposes us for the gift of infused contemplation should He wish to give it (mansions 4 and beyond).

Of course, and again, there are exceptions to all of this.

Dave

 

[Vouthon]

Sounds like at this point, formal prayer gives way…

Yes, all things become as God for the mystic and everything is done through God and in God.

Saint Faustina - a modern 20th century mystic of great note - explained that formal prayer also gives way to a deeper habitual wordless conversation without any mental images or discursive thought, which leads to an awareness of God’s presence in everything and therefore continual wordless communication:

“…My spirit communicates with God without any word being spoken. I am aware that he is living in me and I in him…In order to hear the voice of God, one has to have silence in one’s soul and to keep silence; not a gloomy silence but an interior silence…a noble and delicate soul, even the most simple, but one of delicate sensibilities, sees God in everything, finds Him everywhere, and knows how to find Him even in the most hidden places…I have never sought God in some far-off place but within myself. It is the depths of my own being that I commune with God…No one will understand what I experience in that splendid palace of my soul where I abide constantly with my Beloved. No exterior thing hinders my union with God…My communion with the Lord is now purely spiritual. My soul is touched by God and wholly absorbs itself in Him, even to the complete forgetfulness of self. Permeated by God in its very depths, it drowns in his beauty; it completely dissolves in Him - I am at a loss to describe this, because in writing I am making use of the senses; but there, in that union, the senses are not active; there is a merging of God and the soul…I am aware that you are dwelling in me, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, or rather I am aware that it is I who am living in You, O incomprehensible God! I am aware that I am dissolving in You like a drop in an ocean. I am aware that you are within me and all about me, that You are in all things that surround me, in all that happens to me…”

- Saint Faustina Kowalska (1905-1938), Catholic mystic & Apostle of Divine Mercy

In view of this inward, wordless, mindless, thoughtless habitual communion with God which is like a drop of water dissolving in the vast ocean of the Unity of God, Meister Eckhart used hyperbole (exaggeration) to say that the truly “detached” person does not “pray”, at least in the conventional sense:

“…When I pray for aught, my prayer goes for naught; when I pray for naught, I pray as I ought. When I am united with the God within which all beings exist whether past, present or future, they are all equally near and equally one; they are all in God and all in me. Then there’s no need to think of Henry or Conrad…Human beings who love God as they ought and must (whether they would or not) must love their fellow human beings as themselves, rejoicing in their joys as their own joys, and desiring their honour as much as their own honour, and loving a stranger as one of their own…You must have left behind all distinction of person, so that you are as well disposed to a person who is across the sea, whom you never set eyes on, as to the person who is with you and is your close friend. As long as you favour your own person more than that person you have never seen, you are assuredly not right and have never for a single instant looked into this simple ground…That man who is thus established in God’s love must be dead to self…I ask, ‘What is the prayer of a detached heart?’ My answer is that detachment and purity cannot pray, for whoever prays wants God to grant him something, or else wants God to take something from him. But a detached heart desires nothing at all, nor has it anything it wants to get rid of. Therefore it is free of all prayers, or its prayer consists of nothing but being uniform with God. That is all its prayer…Those who pray for anything but God or to do with God, pray wrongly: when I pray for nothing, then I pray rightly, and that prayer is proper and powerful. But if anyone prays for anything else, he is praying to a false God…I never pray so well as when I pray for nothing and for nobody, not for Heinrich or Conrad. Those who pray truly pray to God in truth and spirit, that is to say, in the Holy Spirit…People often say to me, ‘Pray for me’. And I think, ‘Why do you go out? Why do you not stay within yourself and draw on your own treasure? For you have the whole truth in its essence within you.’ That we may thus truly stay within, that we may possess all truth immediately, without distinction, in true blessedness, may God help us…”

- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260 – c. 1327), Catholic mystic & Dominican priest

(continued…)

 

[Vouthon]

And Angelus Silesius wrote in his epigrams:

“…The deepest prayer which I could ever say is that which makes me One with That to which I pray. God is such as He is, I am as I must be. And yet no two-ness do I see. There is nothing that disturbs your meditation but your own wandering mind in its vain agitation. Give me all Your bounty, give me eternal bliss - as long as You withhold yourself all things I miss. So far beyond all words is He, I know no other way than not to speak. Thus without words I pray. In the depth of his Abyss God is pure contemplation. The deepest ground of all that is dwells in perpetual adoration. We keep so busy talking, we are so keen to act that we forget that in the heart lies all we need untapped, intact. He who turns the senses to the Light that is his center hears what no ear can hear, sees where no light can enter. Prayer is neither word nor gesture, chant nor sound. It is to be in still communication with our Ground…”

***- Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), German Catholic mystic and poet ***

But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t “pray”, God wants us to pray its just that prayer takes on a different meaning and form at these deeper levels of contemplation. It is no longer a matter of asking God for “this and that” or to remove this or that, rather it silent communication with God as the ground of our very being and complete unity with his will in all things. Prayer becomes a movement away from self to God:

“…People who are successful in the breakthrough, which one must anticipate by withdrawing from oneself and all things … such people’s minds and hearts are so completely lost in God that they somehow have no consciousness of self except by perceiving self and all things in their first origin…And the will of God tastes so good to them, and they attain such majesty from it, that everything that God has ordained for them is so welcome to them that they neither want nor desire anything else. One should not construe this to mean that a person thereby no longer needs to beg and pray to God. It is God’s will that one pray to him. Rather, it [prayer] is to be understood [anew] as the ordered withdrawal from selfhood in favour of the will of the exalted Godhead…”

***- Blessed Henry Suso (1300-1366), Catholic mystic & Dominican priest ***